More info (From the ATF website)... PDF file

Sorry for the formatting, it's cut and pasted from the PDF).

NEWS RELEASE
OFFICE OF THE UNITED STATES ATTORNEY
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS
EDWARD E. McNALLY
UNITED STATES ATTORNEY
Nine Executive Drive, Fairview Heights, Illinois 62208, Telephone (618) 628-3700
For Immediate Release
JANUARY 17, 2006
FOUR CHARGED WITH ILLEGAL POSSESSION OF MACHINEGUNS
SPAULDING M.D. AND THREE ILLINOIS STATE POLICE TROOPERS
Edward E. McNally, United States Attorney for the Southern District of Illinois,
announced today that HAROLD M. GRIFFITHS, age 69, of Spaulding, Illinois; GREG R.
MUGGE, age 51, of Jerseyville, Illinois; JAMES V. VEST, age 39, of O’Fallon, Illinois; and
JOHN J. YARD, age 36, of Collinsville, Illinois, were each charged in separate Criminal
Complaints filed under seal on January 11, 2006, in the East St. Louis, Illinois division of
the United States District Court for the Southern District of Illinois with the unlawful
possession of a machinegun.
The complaints were unsealed in court today. Copies are attached. A criminal
complaint is a formal charge against a defendant that is comprised of the essential facts
constituting the offense charged. Under the law, a defendant is presumed to be innocent of
a charge until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of a jury.
The violation allegedly committed by GRIFFITHS took place on or about October
12, 2005, in Madison County, Illinois. GRIFFITHS, a former resident of Glen Carbon,
Illinois, is a medical doctor, practicing in Springfield.
The violation allegedly committed by MUGGE took place on or about December
29, 2005, in Jersey County, Illinois. MUGGE is a Senior Master Trooper with the Illinois
State Police, District 18 Headquarters, located in Litchfield, Illinois.
The violation allegedly committed by VEST took place on or about December 29,
2005, in St. Clair County, Illinois. VEST is a Sergeant with the Illinois State Police, District
11 Headquarters, located in Collinsville, Illinois.
The violation allegedly committed by YARD took place on or about October 12,
2005, in Madison County, Illinois. YARD is a Special Agent with the Illinois State Police,
District 11 Headquarters, located in Collinsville, Illinois. YARD was previously assigned to
the Public Corruption Task Force of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Fairview Heights,
Illinois.

McNally observed that: “No one is above the law. If the United States obtains
sufficient evidence that the law has been violated – whether by a law enforcement
officer, any other public official, or a private person – they will be prosecuted, and justice
administered fairly. That’s why the Statue of Justice is blindfolded.” He added: “The
Illinois State Police (ISP) is one of the finest and most professional law enforcement
organizations in the Nation, and the men and women who wear that uniform and risk
their lives to protect Illinois families and communities deserve our respect and our
thanks. Like the ATF and the FBI, ISP Director Larry Trent, ISP Internal Investigations
and others at ISP have been fully cooperative and partners in these investigations.”
Andrew L. Traver, Special Agent In Charge of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), stated, "We consider the Illinois State Police our
greatest ally in the battle against illegal interstate firearms trafficking and have the
highest level of respect for the excellent law enforcement work that ISP agents and
troopers perform on a daily basis. If anyone violates the Federal firearms laws, it is the
responsibility of ATF to apprehend them and present them for criminal prosecution; it is
truly unfortunate that these men charged today belong to that outstanding law
enforcement organization, but their arrests should in no way reflect negatively on the
Illinois State Police."
According to Weysan Dun, Special Agent in Charge of the FBI, Springfield
Division, “The charges announced today reflect the shared commitment of the United
States Attorney’s Office, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the
FBI and the Illinois State Police to thoroughly investigate and rigorously enforce the law
regardless of who may be in violation. Law enforcement personnel not only must obey
the laws they are sworn to enforce, but they are held to higher standards of conduct by
their agencies.”
If convicted, each defendant faces a maximum penalty of ten years’
imprisonment, a fine of $250,000, or both, and a term of supervised release of not more
than three years.
The information contained in the complaint was obtained through an investigation
conducted by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, and the Illinois
State Police, Department of Internal Investigations. The case is being handled by
Assistant United States Attorney James E. Crowe, III.
###

Quoted: Upon further investigation he found that they had forged ISP letterhead with a forged signature from a ISP director. When ATF confronted the first cop he rolled on the others.

It is indeed sad to see ANYBODY (who would otherwise not be a criminal) arrested and/or sent to prison solely for violating a BS firearm law such as this.

On the other hand it isn't exactly an honorable thing to have these LEOs knowingly and deceitfully committing felonies either, regardless of what law was broken Apparently they believed they were above the law so it is a good thing they won't be involved in LE anymore if convicted of the felony.

Have to agree it would be an excellent case to take up the chain though since it didn't involve anything but the firearms violation and the people had clean histories otherwise.

Hey folks... this is much bigger than just a LEO with an "illegal" weapon. It's the fact that these are illegal to begin with. While the fight ensues in Frisco another fight begins in IL with an attempted AW ban. Please help your fellow IL ARFcommers out, fire off some e-mails to our wonderful gov. "Blago"

By all means tell him what you all think!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You mean there are such thing as a Law Breaking LEO? [/sarcasm off] Fuck em. Fry em like CRISPY Bacon (no pun). If it were one of us (dirt peasant civilians).......we'd be held without bail.  Own recognizance?  Fuck that.  Sounds like they are getting preferential treatment. Do you really try that hard to show your ignorance? If you had no previous criminal record and no other pending charges you'd go through the process too.    There are many factors that go into determining if you get recog'd or not.    Being a cop isnt one of them.     How long you've lived in an area, if you have had a steady job, criminal record, do you own a house, etc.     Being a cop in trouble aint on the list. Held without bail requires something a bunch more serious and needs a few public risk factors.   wierd, because this guy is being held on 3 million dollars bond.

Foreign national with explosives. Send his ass to Gitmo awaiting trial.

Quoted: What's funny about this thread is there'd be more cop bashing if the cops had shot a dog.

Now what do you think he was practicing at that range for? To shoot rabbits?

Quoted: Quoted: It saddens me deeply, and angers me more, to see anyone arrested on life-ruining charges for something that should not be illegal.   so damn true! LB

It would be easier to feel sorry for the LEO's if they didn't ruin people's lives by arresting them for minor/ previously legal items.

They were part of the problem, so fvck 'em.

Quoted: You should check again, sir.  You are correct about the suppressors though. Class III manufacturers are allowed...  aren't you familiar with Rock River, Springfield, DPMS and a dozen other gun makers from IL? I know two Class IIIs within an hour of Champaign...  and I'm by no means an expert about Class III! J

I'm no expert on it, either. I am well aware that there are numerous mfgs. in Illinois. One you didn't specifically mention immediately jumps to mind: DSArms. Whether or not it is the proper nomenclature, many NFA items are referred to as "Class 3".

I'm sure that federally licensed mfgs can possess items not available to ordinary folks. I was questioning the ability of someone to posses those NFA items as an ordinary citizen such as these officers. The context of the posts reveals this. The post I responded gave the distinct impression that this was merely a matter of paying tribute to the feds in the form of the NFA tax. Rather, much more is needed to legally possess such items in Illinois. Nothing in this story suggests that the accused were engaged in a federally licensed manufacture of firearms such that they could merely pay the appropriate tax thereby avoiding prosecution.

I obviously didn't realize that the poster was a Federally licensed C3 mfg.

I submit to you 720 ILCS 5/24-1, Unlawful use of weapons.

In part:

(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly: .... (6) Possesses any device or attachment of any kind designed, used or intended for use in silencing the report of any firearm; or (7) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or carries: (i) a machine gun, which shall be defined for the purposes of this subsection as any weapon, which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manually reloading by a single function of the trigger, including the frame or receiver of any such weapon, or sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses, or carries any combination of parts designed or intended for use in converting any weapon into a machine gun, or any combination or parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person; (ii) any rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches; or (iii) any bomb, bomb-shell, grenade, bottle or other container containing an explosive substance of over one-quarter ounce for like purposes, such as, but not limited to, black powder bombs and Molotov cocktails or artillery projectiles; or ....

Quoted: Three state troopers, local doctor face machine-gun charges. Each charge carries a possible 10 years in prison and $250,000 in fines, prosecutors said. www.sj-r.com/sections/news/stories/76426.asp

These lawbreakers will get a slap on the wrist. 1-2 years probation, probably get civilian jobs and keep their benefits.

If they get more than a week in county I'll be sure to send them a tub of Anal-Eze to help them through their time in prison.

Quoted: It would be easier to feel sorry for the LEO's if they didn't ruin people's lives by arresting them for minor/ previously legal items. They were part of the problem, so fvck 'em.

+1 Fuck em, I don't feel sorry for them at all, they know the law better than us, they knew the penalties for their actions, the law is the law. I'm sure they ruined plenty of other peoples lives enforcing bullshit laws (just following orders of course), now they can experience it from the other side.

BATF actually did it right for a change and a bonus that the criminals had badges.

Quoted: Odd, when it's the ISP, everyone is mad as hell. Had it been me and I posted my sob story about being charges with violating an unconstitutional law,  I suspect I would have been lynched for being stupid enough to break the law. I think that prior threads on similar subjects bear that out. Are we for the rule of law on this board or not? I cannot tell. The majority of Arfcom posters appear to be 'the law is the law' sort but on certain issues and when certain results obtain, then 'the law is stupid' (or unconstitutional, etc.) How on earth can us ordinary plebians be expected to respect laws we think are illegal, imprudent, unfair, etc. if those charged with enforcing those laws ignore them when they see fit? Either the law is the law, or some laws are so unjust and unconscionable as to not be laws at all, but rather tyranny and the 'rule of law' is a sham. I can't see how one can have it both ways. I, for one, do not pity these men for an instant. They knew the score, and better than most at that. I obey the laws regarding machineguns in this state, like them or not. Who are these men to think they are not bound by the same laws that bind me while they undertake to enforce those very same laws? Shame on the State of Illinois for its tyrannical laws and shame on these troopers for sullying the name of law enfocement everywhere by their belief that they are beyond the reach of the law. I say all of this assuming that the allegations are true. I certainly hope that they are not but I don't feel terribly out of line in making my assumption as it is the Arfcom way to assume the guilt of the accused and make preparations for execution prior to the filing of formal charges.

Nicely done!


Yet, I'm curiously hungry for fried pork.  

Quoted: God I hope this goes to the supreme court and something gets shot down. This would be the perfect test case, 3 fine upstanding citizens who broke an unconstitutional law.

Would Alito be SCOUTUS by then?   Would he help or hurt our case?

Quoted: I'm no expert on it, either. I am well aware that there are numerous mfgs. in Illinois. One you didn't specifically mention immediately jumps to mind: DSArms. Whether or not it is the proper nomenclature, many NFA items are referred to as "Class 3". I'm sure that federally licensed mfgs can possess items not available to ordinary folks. I was questioning the ability of someone to posses those NFA items as an ordinary citizen such as these officers. The context of the posts reveals this. The post I responded gave the distinct impression that this was merely a matter of paying tribute to the feds in the form of the NFA tax. Rather, much more is needed to legally possess such items in Illinois. Nothing in this story suggests that the accused were engaged in a federally licensed manufacture of firearms such that they could merely pay the appropriate tax thereby avoiding prosecution. I obviously didn't realize that the poster was a Federally licensed C3 mfg.

The more appropriate term is "Title II" firearms.     But most people use C3, just like lots of people still use the silly term "silencer".

While I agree that that MG ban is a bullshit law, there officers willfully broke that law and even forged documents to make things look legit.

But some of you have declared these officers to be "non-criminal and upstanding people".............

If they will go that far just to have a couple of toys, what other laws are they willing to break for thier own personal benefit??

Quoted: Personally, with the exception of the doctor I’m glad that those pigs got busted. I wonder how many people they arrested during their careers for gun violations; heck just being on a police force when that force arrests nonviolent people for stupid crimes proves that they are extremely immoral people. Moral people don’t say “Oh well, I’m just doing my job”, moral people are principled people and people with principle won’t associate themselves with a tyrannical organization and pass the blame on to someone else. If YOU are committing acts of tyranny then don’t blame congress for legitimizing your acts, while congress is guilty, you are far more guilty than congress for carrying out their tyrannical orders. While these men aren’t guilty in the eyes of freedom for owning machine guns, they are guilty in the eyes of freedom for being tyrants, and thus need to be punished.

Although I don't agree that anyone should be punished for this particular violation, I do think they should be held accountable. There are too many "double standards for LEO's as it is.
They must play by the same rules as everyone else. Seem's a lot of respect has been lost for LEO's because when they do something wrong they just get kicked off the force as punishment with not jail time. Crime is crime and there should be no favoritism for LEO's.

Quoted: Quoted: Upon further investigation he found that they had forged ISP letterhead with a forged signature from a ISP director. When ATF confronted the first cop he rolled on the others. It is indeed sad to see ANYBODY (who would otherwise not be a criminal) arrested and/or sent to prison solely for violating a BS firearm law such as this. On the other hand it isn't exactly an honorable thing to have these LEOs knowingly and deceitfully committing felonies either, regardless of what law was broken Apparently they believed they were above the law so it is a good thing they won't be involved in LE anymore if convicted of the felony. Have to agree it would be an excellent case to take up the chain though since it didn't involve anything but the firearms violation and the people had clean histories otherwise.

More often than not, that's usually the case... most people have a clean history up until the time they get caught or arrested. With some, it just might take a little more time before they're eventually caught.

What makes this particular case troublesome, is not only did they knowingly break the law (forget about the fact that 3 out of the 4 are cops), but assuming that P08's information is accurate, they deliberately tried to conceal/hide the fact that they knew they were breaking the law by forging documents.

FWIW, this is probably one of the worst examples I can think of for bringing a 2nd amendment/individual rights argument before the SCOTUS.

Quoted: First you get your FFL, then you pay $500 a year for your SOT. Once you do this you can buy all the MG's SBR's SBS's AOW's that you want! It is the only way around illinois law. I am presently checking into relaxed restrictions on Class 3 FFL's owning suppressors.

What is an "SOT"?

Quoted: These lawbreakers will get a slap on the wrist. 1-2 years probation, probably get civilian jobs and keep their benefits. If they get more than a week in county I'll be sure to send them a tub of Anal-Eze to help them through their time in prison.

Most police who go to prison are not put in general population.  They are put in a protected area.

Quoted: Quoted: First you get your FFL, then you pay $500 a year for your SOT. Once you do this you can buy all the MG's SBR's SBS's AOW's that you want! It is the only way around illinois law. I am presently checking into relaxed restrictions on Class 3 FFL's owning suppressors. What is an "SOT"?

Special Occupational Tax.

www.quarterbore.com/nfa/class3.htm

There is NO SUCH THING as a Class 3 Weapon

By:  Circuits of AR15.com

"Class 3" refers to a firearms dealer who has paid a special tax, called the "Special Occupational Tax" (SOT) to deal in machineguns and other National Firearms Act (NFA) weapons.

Machineguns, Sound suppressors, Short-Barrel Rifles and Shotguns, and Any Other Weapons (AOW) are all regulated and taxed under the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) as amended by Title 2 of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968.

Semi-auto and all other firearms except large-bore or explosive Destructive Devices are regulated under Title 1 of the Gun Control Act (GCA).

What most people mistakenly call Class 3 is properly referred to as NFA or Title 2 firearms.

A Class 3 SOT dealer is a dealer of NFA firearms
A Class 2 SOT manufacturer is a manufacturer of NFA firearms
A Class 1 SOT importer is an importer of NFA firearms

Type 1 FFL is a Title 1 dealer or gunsmith
Type 2 FFL is a Title 1 dealer doing business as a pawnbroker
Type 3 FFL is a licensed collector of Curio & Relic (C&R) firearms
Type 6 FFL is a licensed maker of ammunition and reloading components other than Armor Piercing ammunition
Type 7 FFL is a Title 1 manufacturer of firearms, ammunition and ammunition components other than NFA, Destructive Devices and Armor Piercing ammunition
Type 8 FFL is an importer of Title 1 firearms and ammunition
Type 9 FFL is a dealer in Title 1 firearms including NFA destructive devices, but no other NFA
Type 10 FFL is a manufacturer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and ammunition components, including NFA Destructive Devices but no other NFA, and not including Armor Piercing ammunition
Type 11 FFL is an importer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and NFA Destructive Devices, but no other NFA

To get a Class 3 SOT status, you need a dealer or manufacturer FFL which includes Type 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 10 or 11 - and pay a yearly $500 tax due every July 1st.

To get a Class 2 SOT status, you need a manufacturer FFL, which includes Type 7, 10 - and pay a yearly $1000 or $500 (reduced rate for small manufacturers) tax due every July 1st.

To get a Class 1 SOT status, you need an importer FFL, which includes Type 8, 11- and pay a yearly $1000 or $500 (reduced rate for small importers) tax due every July 1st.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: TEST CASE! Yup!  Take her to the Supreme Court and Strike this thing DOWN!  Get Al Sharpton and Jessie HighJackson to stand up for these guys! If those guys aren't black, it'll never happen.

That's racist
and
TRUE

Quoted: Quoted: Dupe www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=428641 amazingly the other thread was started more than an hour before this one and was closed as a dupe with a link to here. same thing happened with the michael vick thread not long ago.

And the other thread started by a person from that area of IL, with a link to the local news article. Of course it had more accurate information in the article to begin with. I guess since this one had more replies, and since the title was more sensational, it won out! We're operating under "live at 11" rules now I guess.

Quoted: Quoted: Upon further investigation he found that they had forged ISP letterhead with a forged signature from a ISP director. When ATF confronted the first cop he rolled on the others. It is indeed sad to see ANYBODY (who would otherwise not be a criminal) arrested and/or sent to prison solely for violating a BS firearm law such as this. On the other hand it isn't exactly an honorable thing to have these LEOs knowingly and deceitfully committing felonies either, regardless of what law was broken Apparently they believed they were above the law so it is a good thing they won't be involved in LE anymore if convicted of the felony. Have to agree it would be an excellent case to take up the chain though since it didn't involve anything but the firearms violation and the people had clean histories otherwise.

It might be a very good test case.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: First you get your FFL, then you pay $500 a year for your SOT. Once you do this you can buy all the MG's SBR's SBS's AOW's that you want! It is the only way around illinois law. I am presently checking into relaxed restrictions on Class 3 FFL's owning suppressors. What is an "SOT"? Special Occupational Tax. www.quarterbore.com/nfa/class3.htm There is NO SUCH THING as a Class 3 Weapon By:  Circuits of AR15.com "Class 3" refers to a firearms dealer who has paid a special tax, called the "Special Occupational Tax" (SOT) to deal in machineguns and other National Firearms Act (NFA) weapons. Machineguns, Sound suppressors, Short-Barrel Rifles and Shotguns, and Any Other Weapons (AOW) are all regulated and taxed under the National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) as amended by Title 2 of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968. Semi-auto and all other firearms except large-bore or explosive Destructive Devices are regulated under Title 1 of the Gun Control Act (GCA). What most people mistakenly call Class 3 is properly referred to as NFA or Title 2 firearms. A Class 3 SOT dealer is a dealer of NFA firearms A Class 2 SOT manufacturer is a manufacturer of NFA firearms A Class 1 SOT importer is an importer of NFA firearms Type 1 FFL is a Title 1 dealer or gunsmith Type 2 FFL is a Title 1 dealer doing business as a pawnbroker Type 3 FFL is a licensed collector of Curio & Relic (C&R) firearms Type 6 FFL is a licensed maker of ammunition and reloading components other than Armor Piercing ammunition Type 7 FFL is a Title 1 manufacturer of firearms, ammunition and ammunition components other than NFA, Destructive Devices and Armor Piercing ammunition Type 8 FFL is an importer of Title 1 firearms and ammunition Type 9 FFL is a dealer in Title 1 firearms including NFA destructive devices, but no other NFA Type 10 FFL is a manufacturer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and ammunition components, including NFA Destructive Devices but no other NFA, and not including Armor Piercing ammunition Type 11 FFL is an importer of Title 1 firearms, ammunition and NFA Destructive Devices, but no other NFA To get a Class 3 SOT status, you need a dealer or manufacturer FFL which includes Type 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 10 or 11 - and pay a yearly $500 tax due every July 1st. To get a Class 2 SOT status, you need a manufacturer FFL, which includes Type 7, 10 - and pay a yearly $1000 or $500 (reduced rate for small manufacturers) tax due every July 1st. To get a Class 1 SOT status, you need an importer FFL, which includes Type 8, 11- and pay a yearly $1000 or $500 (reduced rate for small importers) tax due every July 1st.

Thank you.

Quoted: Its a tough call...I suspect these officers have made numerous FA related arrests that we would have all agreed were the right thing to do. My bet is they've NEVER made a FA related arrest. It's not your 'average' weapon violation. OTOH they shouldn't have acted as though they had a special pass.  The special stauts off the job is a big nonstarter w/ me. Off the job COPs are (or rather should be) just like everyone else. Special passes only put up walls and breed resentment...very bad for us all as gun owners and Americans. We let it happen though...esp the police. What about the doctor? Did we forget about him? Or is this all about the cops? The pols tossed them some crumbs (special status off the job) and they bit. Its a mystery to me why govt agents in general are held in higher esteem than folks who live an upright life in other occupations. That said the law is wrong and those who wrote it knew as much. Its no different than the eminent domain baloney thats currently in the news. Bad law is bad law and it needs to be reviewed. However, it wont start w/ the pols or courts. It has to start w/ us! If we dont care enough to push the issue then why should they? Itll be an uphill battle for sure but it well worth it. As an aside the situation is far worse than you might understand. These guys had real working MGs...one trigger pull shoots multiple rounds. We would all agree that that would be the defn of a MG. However, they could have been arrested on the same charges by having a mix of MG parts in a FA that functioned as a semi-auto. Think about that...the defn of a MG just morphed into something that reasonable folks would say would be OK.  The rifle would be completely legal as a to function but a MG b/c of parts whether it operated that way or not. This isnt law but a ruling by the ATF...and arbitary at that.

Quoted: Quoted: It would be easier to feel sorry for the LEO's if they didn't ruin people's lives by arresting them for minor/ previously legal items. They were part of the problem, so fvck 'em. +1 Fuck em, I don't feel sorry for them at all, they know the law better than us, they knew the penalties for their actions, the law is the law. I'm sure they ruined plenty of other peoples lives enforcing bullshit laws (just following orders of course), now they can experience it from the other side. BATF actually did it right for a change and a bonus that the criminals had badges.

I agree. Fu*king _____

Quoted: Quoted: You should check again, sir.  You are correct about the suppressors though. Class III manufacturers are allowed...  aren't you familiar with Rock River, Springfield, DPMS and a dozen other gun makers from IL? I know two Class IIIs within an hour of Champaign...  and I'm by no means an expert about Class III! J I'm no expert on it, either. I am well aware that there are numerous mfgs. in Illinois. One you didn't specifically mention immediately jumps to mind: DSArms. Whether or not it is the proper nomenclature, many NFA items are referred to as "Class 3". I'm sure that federally licensed mfgs can possess items not available to ordinary folks. I was questioning the ability of someone to posses those NFA items as an ordinary citizen such as these officers. The context of the posts reveals this. The post I responded gave the distinct impression that this was merely a matter of paying tribute to the feds in the form of the NFA tax. Rather, much more is needed to legally possess such items in Illinois. Nothing in this story suggests that the accused were engaged in a federally licensed manufacture of firearms such that they could merely pay the appropriate tax thereby avoiding prosecution. I obviously didn't realize that the poster was a Federally licensed C3 mfg. I submit to you 720 ILCS 5/24-1, Unlawful use of weapons. In part: (a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly: .... (6) Possesses any device or attachment of any kind designed, used or intended for use in silencing the report of any firearm; or (7) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or carries: (i) a machine gun, which shall be defined for the purposes of this subsection as any weapon, which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manually reloading by a single function of the trigger, including the frame or receiver of any such weapon, or sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses, or carries any combination of parts designed or intended for use in converting any weapon into a machine gun, or any combination or parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person; (ii) any rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length or a shotgun having one or more barrels less than 18 inches in length or any weapon made from a rifle or shotgun, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches; or (iii) any bomb, bomb-shell, grenade, bottle or other container containing an explosive substance of over one-quarter ounce for like purposes, such as, but not limited to, black powder bombs and Molotov cocktails or artillery projectiles; or ....

Keep reading until you reach 720 ILCS 24-2(c):

(c) Subsection 24‑1(a)(7) does not apply to or affect any of the following:        (1) Peace officers while in performance of their official duties.        (2) Wardens, superintendents and keepers of prisons, penitentiaries, jails and other institutions for the detention of persons accused or convicted of an offense.        (3) Members of the Armed Services or Reserve Forces of the United States or the Illinois National Guard, while in the performance of their official duty.        (4) Manufacture, transportation, or sale of machine guns to persons authorized under subdivisions (1) through (3) of this subsection to possess machine guns, if the machine guns are broken down in a non‑functioning state or are not immediately accessible.        (5) Persons licensed under federal law to manufacture any weapon from which 8 or more shots or bullets can be discharged by a single function of the firing device, or ammunition for such weapons, and actually engaged in the business of manufacturing such weapons or ammunition, but only with respect to activities which are within the lawful scope of such business, such as the manufacture, transportation, or testing of such weapons or ammunition. This exemption does not authorize the general private possession of any weapon from which 8 or more shots or bullets can be discharged by a single function of the firing device, but only such possession and activities as are within the lawful scope of a licensed manufacturing business described in this paragraph. During transportation, such weapons shall be broken down in a non‑functioning state or not immediately accessible.        (6) The manufacture, transport, testing, delivery, transfer or sale, and all lawful commercial or experimental activities necessary thereto, of rifles, shotguns, and weapons made from rifles or shotguns, or ammunition for such rifles, shotguns or weapons, where engaged in by a person operating as a contractor or subcontractor pursuant to a contract or subcontract for the development and supply of such rifles, shotguns, weapons or ammunition to the United States government or any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States, when such activities are necessary and incident to fulfilling the terms of such contract.        The exemption granted under this subdivision (c)(6) shall also apply to any authorized agent of any such contractor or subcontractor who is operating within the scope of his employment, where such activities involving such weapon, weapons or ammunition are necessary and incident to fulfilling the terms of such contract. During transportation, any such weapon shall be broken down in a non‑functioning state, or not immediately accessible.

Quoted: DPMS is in St. Cloud MN.

Might have meant DS Arms.  

Quoted: Quoted: The majority of Arfcom posters appear to be 'the law is the law' sort but on certain issues and when certain results obtain, then 'the law is stupid' (or unconstitutional, etc.) How on earth can us ordinary plebians be expected to respect laws we think are illegal, imprudent, unfair, etc. if those charged with enforcing those laws ignore them when they see fit? Either the law is the law, or some laws are so unjust and unconscionable as to not be laws at all, but rather tyranny and the 'rule of law' is a sham. I can't see how one can have it both ways. I, for one, do not pity these men for an instant. They knew the score, and better than most at that. I obey the laws regarding machineguns in this state, like them or not. Who are these men to think they are not bound by the same laws that bind me while they undertake to enforce those very same laws?

The law is the law. Only laws that are "so unjust and unconscionable" should be disobeyed.  These laws are ones that force one individual to commit an injustice on another individual.  Another definition of an "unjust" law would be one that is required of the minority, but the majority does not have to follow--at least that's what MLK and Plato thought.

bd

Quoted: Keep reading until you reach 720 ILCS 24-2(c): (c) Subsection 24‑1(a)(7) does not apply to or affect any of the following:        (1) Peace officers while in performance of their official duties.        (2) Wardens, superintendents and keepers of prisons, penitentiaries, jails and other institutions for the detention of persons accused or convicted of an offense.        (3) Members of the Armed Services or Reserve Forces of the United States or the Illinois National Guard, while in the performance of their official duty.        (4) Manufacture, transportation, or sale of machine guns to persons authorized under subdivisions (1) through (3) of this subsection to possess machine guns, if the machine guns are broken down in a non‑functioning state or are not immediately accessible.        (5) Persons licensed under federal law to manufacture any weapon from which 8 or more shots or bullets can be discharged by a single function of the firing device, or ammunition for such weapons, and actually engaged in the business of manufacturing such weapons or ammunition, but only with respect to activities which are within the lawful scope of such business, such as the manufacture, transportation, or testing of such weapons or ammunition. This exemption does not authorize the general private possession of any weapon from which 8 or more shots or bullets can be discharged by a single function of the firing device, but only such possession and activities as are within the lawful scope of a licensed manufacturing business described in this paragraph. During transportation, such weapons shall be broken down in a non‑functioning state or not immediately accessible.        (6) The manufacture, transport, testing, delivery, transfer or sale, and all lawful commercial or experimental activities necessary thereto, of rifles, shotguns, and weapons made from rifles or shotguns, or ammunition for such rifles, shotguns or weapons, where engaged in by a person operating as a contractor or subcontractor pursuant to a contract or subcontract for the development and supply of such rifles, shotguns, weapons or ammunition to the United States government or any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States, when such activities are necessary and incident to fulfilling the terms of such contract.        The exemption granted under this subdivision (c)(6) shall also apply to any authorized agent of any such contractor or subcontractor who is operating within the scope of his employment, where such activities involving such weapon, weapons or ammunition are necessary and incident to fulfilling the terms of such contract. During transportation, any such weapon shall be broken down in a non‑functioning state, or not immediately accessible.

I'm familiar with the section. I'm not sure why you're offering it, however.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have orders straight from GoatBoy to not allow generalized bashing of uniformed personnel--those who would tend to post in the Brothers of the Shield Forum.  This isn't about twisted panties or my own whims.   WHAT!!!?? This is yet more preferential treatment for cops. So people can bash anyone but cops ... f'n wonderful! Who is this "anyone" you refer to?   We don't allow any kind of generalized bashing--except against the French.   Wait a minute now....................... what about the generalized bashing of the libs, gays or anyone else that has differing thoughts or lifestyle? your protection doesn't seem to include them. I certainly haven't seen anyone step in with mod protection for those mentioned like the cops appear to be getting here. What is the difference in the generalized bashing of one over the other? other than the obvious, "word from goatboy" on the cops. Is this kind of like them using their cells and driving, they get preferential tratment in here as well? We do not ALLOW generalized bashing of any of the groups you mention--save "libs" as they don't tend to be members here.  "Allow" and "didn't see" are not the same thing.  We can't read every thread on the site, so we no doubt miss many items posted.  It is site policy to not allow generalized bashing.  This is not a difficult concept.   Here is our basis for this, taken from the beginning of the Conduct Code: Respect your fellow gun owners by not doing the following. We have many, many LEOs who are members here--and every bit as ardent in their support of RKBA issues as any of us.  We have a number of homosexuals also--and members of the Pink Pistols.  The whole point is to join together as firearms enthusiasts and not have many of our members having general insults thrown their way for things they are NOT doing.  If you were an LEO who respected the Constitution, obeyed the law yourself, and were an avid "gun nut" you would not enjoy coming here and seeing "all pigs are crooked tyrannical pricks!"  Bash individuals who deserve it, but do not transfer the sins of one to the group as a whole.  That's all we ask.

SOunds fair enough for me.

Quoted: The law is the law. Only laws that are "so unjust and unconscionable" should be disobeyed.  bd

Is one free to decide that for oneself? If each individual has a right to disobey that law he believes unjust, does that not produce anarchy? If one has no such right, than the practical effect of disobeying an unjust law is that the lawbreaker is punished, irrespective of right and wrong. This is precisely what is likely to happen in this story.

Quoted: Hey folks... this is much bigger than just a LEO with an "illegal" weapon. It's the fact that these are illegal to begin with. While the fight ensues in Frisco another fight begins in IL with an attempted AW ban. Please help your fellow IL ARFcommers out, fire off some e-mails to our wonderful gov. "Blago" By all means tell him what you all think!

While yer at it tell him to raise the truck speed limit to what the cars are going

Quoted: Quoted: The law is the law. Only laws that are "so unjust and unconscionable" should be disobeyed.  bd Is one free to decide that for oneself? If each individual has a right to disobey that law he believes unjust, does that not produce anarchy? If one has no such right, than the practical effect of disobeying an unjust law is that the lawbreaker is punished, irrespective of right and wrong. This is precisely what is likely to happen in this story.

You're right. Reread my post, it only gives theoretical and philosphical examples that have been used in the history of civil disobedience.  In the case of the ISP, these exceptions certainly do not apply. We don't get the choice to disobey whatever law we want.

bd

The problems, as I see them are:

(1) Unconstitutional regulation of machine guns.

(2) The federal and state laws that are so confusing that citizens, police, lawyers, BATFE and even judges cannot agree on what they mean.

(Edited to get all the letters in there for the Federales)

Quoted: I'm familiar with the section. I'm not sure why you're offering it, however.

You seemed to call into question the legality of a Class 3 SOT FFL within IL. It's legal. Just offering it up so you could see it.

I agree, however I think I'm a bit more upset at another example of certain law enforcement
officials thinking they are above the law.


+1

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have orders straight from GoatBoy to not allow generalized bashing of uniformed personnel--those who would tend to post in the Brothers of the Shield Forum.  This isn't about twisted panties or my own whims.   WHAT!!!?? This is yet more preferential treatment for cops. So people can bash anyone but cops ... f'n wonderful! Who is this "anyone" you refer to?   We don't allow any kind of generalized bashing--except against the French.   Wait a minute now....................... what about the generalized bashing of the libs, gays or anyone else that has differing thoughts or lifestyle? your protection doesn't seem to include them. I certainly haven't seen anyone step in with mod protection for those mentioned like the cops appear to be getting here. What is the difference in the generalized bashing of one over the other? other than the obvious, "word from goatboy" on the cops. Is this kind of like them using their cells and driving, they get preferential tratment in here as well? We do not ALLOW generalized bashing of any of the groups you mention--save "libs" as they don't tend to be members here.  "Allow" and "didn't see" are not the same thing.  We can't read every thread on the site, so we no doubt miss many items posted.  It is site policy to not allow generalized bashing.  This is not a difficult concept.   Here is our basis for this, taken from the beginning of the Conduct Code: Respect your fellow gun owners by not doing the following. We have many, many LEOs who are members here--and every bit as ardent in their support of RKBA issues as any of us.  We have a number of homosexuals also--and members of the Pink Pistols.  The whole point is to join together as firearms enthusiasts and not have many of our members having general insults thrown their way for things they are NOT doing.  If you were an LEO who respected the Constitution, obeyed the law yourself, and were an avid "gun nut" you would not enjoy coming here and seeing "all pigs are crooked tyrannical pricks!"  Bash individuals who deserve it, but do not transfer the sins of one to the group as a whole.  That's all we ask.

Unfortunately, that wasn't what you said. Nor is it what we see.
Bashing of various groups goes pretty much unchecked until someone reall does go too far -- unless its about "our uniformed brothers", then the gate comes down really fast -- and you just gave us evidence that there is a policy to give preference to that particular group.

That is NOT right.

I am not a lawyer, what they are being charged with is a federal law violation,
After they are convicted would this set legal precedence?
I mean if these LEO’s get off with just a slap on the wrist and then Joe
Civilian does the same thing would he get the same punishment?
I think not, he would get the max and be Bubba’s girl friend for
The next ten years.

Quoted: Personally, with the exception of the doctor I’m glad that those pigs got busted.

You're attitude towards cops makes me think you've been arrested one too many times for valid charges.  You a dope fiend?

Quoted: Quoted: I'm familiar with the section. I'm not sure why you're offering it, however. You seemed to call into question the legality of a Class 3 SOT FFL within IL. It's legal. Just offering it up so you could see it.

No, not at all. As I mentioned earlier, I am well aware of such animals. I just didn't consider that P08 was a C3 mfg...although he said C3, a lot of folks use that to refer to MGs, SBRs and suppressors generically. The only reason I raised a question was b/c P08 said:

But to think that $530 a year and no problems!

I took this to mean that he was suggesting that if the accused had simply paid the appropriate fees, they too could have possessed similar firearms legally which doesn't appear to be the case...that's all. I was obviously wrong about that.

thebeekeeper1
Site Staff
What is your damned point? GoatBoy--the one who owns the site--said we are not going to allow generalized bashing of uniformed personnel--AND CERTAIN OTHER IDENTIFIABLE GROUPS. THIS thread dealt with LEOs ("uniformed personnel") so that is who I specifically referenced. I have no idea what your beef is, but whatever it is, that's the rules. If you don't like it, tough shit.

You can whine "that is NOT right" all you want. When you have your own website you can make the rules of any type you wish--and I'm sure they will conform to your idea of "right." Until then you can abide by the rules of this site--or not. If so, enjoy the site. If not . . . you can whine all you want but the rules will not be modified to suit your desires.

"Take it to the pit" a.... I mean they can go to one of those other sites.

Quoted: Quoted: Personally, with the exception of the doctor I’m glad that those pigs got busted. I wonder how many people they arrested during their careers for gun violations; heck just being on a police force when that force arrests nonviolent people for stupid crimes proves that they are extremely immoral people. Moral people don’t say “Oh well, I’m just doing my job”, moral people are principled people and people with principle won’t associate themselves with a tyrannical organization and pass the blame on to someone else. If YOU are committing acts of tyranny then don’t blame congress for legitimizing your acts, while congress is guilty, you are far more guilty than congress for carrying out their tyrannical orders. While these men aren’t guilty in the eyes of freedom for owning machine guns, they are guilty in the eyes of freedom for being tyrants, and thus need to be punished. Although I don't agree that anyone should be punished for this particular violation, I do think they should be held accountable. There are too many "double standards for LEO's as it is. They must play by the same rules as everyone else. Seem's a lot of respect has been lost for LEO's because when they do something wrong they just get kicked off the force as punishment with not jail time. Crime is crime and there should be no favoritism for LEO's.

Hard to disagree with that...


...and let's remember kids, even if we get rid of '86 doing this will still bring you up on tax evasion charges, unless you are for registration...

Quoted: What is your damned point?  GoatBoy--the one who owns the site--said we are not going to allow generalized bashing of uniformed personnel--AND CERTAIN OTHER IDENTIFIABLE GROUPS.  THIS thread dealt with LEOs ("uniformed personnel") so that is who I specifically referenced.  I have no idea what your beef is, but whatever it is, that's the rules.  If you don't like it, tough shit.   You can whine "that is NOT right" all you want.  When you have your own website you can make the rules of any type you wish--and I'm sure they will conform to your idea of "right."  Until then you can abide by the rules of this site--or not.  If so, enjoy the site.  If not . . . you can whine all you want but the rules will not be modified to suit your desires.

Hey, we all need to just keep in mind we weren't smart enough to get this domain as our property when us early internet ppl. could have easily done it. LOL...GoatBoy et al has the right to do as he wishes with his property, and I'm sure he has to weigh going with his more pro LE views and pissing off a huge part of the RKBA community that has some issues with uniformed personel. IMHO I think threads get locked much quicker when the ROP is talked about, especially considering the threat they present compared to a rouge cop (or three in this case), but I'm not quite sure what that means...

...Anyways, on this issue, I can't help but notice which JBTAs have avoided this thread...telling...

I think these cops were stupid for what they did, but ultimately what they did should not be a crime. I have too much respect for the law personally, and do not break them (except speeding, which I do whenever I feel I can get away with it) even if I totally disagree with that law. I hope this thread stays open, so I can read more news about this, and please, let's keep the topic title the same, rather than playing games with something ppl. have invested 18 pages in...

tagged for follow up

Tag

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm familiar with the section. I'm not sure why you're offering it, however. You seemed to call into question the legality of a Class 3 SOT FFL within IL. It's legal. Just offering it up so you could see it. No, not at all. As I mentioned earlier, I am well aware of such animals. I just didn't consider that P08 was a C3 mfg...although he said C3, a lot of folks use that to refer to MGs, SBRs and suppressors generically. The only reason I raised a question was b/c P08 said: But to think that $530 a year and no problems! I took this to mean that he was suggesting that if the accused had simply paid the appropriate fees, they too could have possessed similar firearms legally which doesn't appear to be the case...that's all. I was obviously wrong about that.

Well, he was, but in mentioning the $530, that would be the $500 annual Class 3 (NFA Dealer) or Class 2 (NFA Manufacturer) SOT plus a year's worth of the 3 year $90 FFL. I assumed he was referring to the fact that they could have simply pursued the proper licensing and became C3 Dealers.

Tag

Whilst it chaps my ass that LEO's were breaking the law, I have come to the conclusion that the law sucks.