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Posted: 6/9/2005 12:28:22 PM EDT
[#1]
Geekiest Thread Ever.
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Posted: 6/9/2005 12:31:18 PM EDT
[#2]
Your right in that ST has more advanced appearing tech that SW, but in fact SW operates at much higher power levels. I can see this is quickly going to turn into a SW vs. ST flame war but it has been shown that the main reactor on a star destroyer is many times more powerful than the ones on the Enterprise or Voyager. Based on calculations from the scene in Episode V, when the star destroyer was vaporizing asteroids with single shots from its small cannons he was able to determine:
In one of the episodes in Star Trek: the next generation the Enterprise was almost destroyed by a ship that fired a weapon in the 400GW range. It was one of the early episodes. |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 12:33:20 PM EDT
[#3]
Thank you!  Another thing I found. This is a power comparison for several examples.www.theforce.net/swtc/power.html#comparisons |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 12:39:17 PM EDT
[#4]
Out of curiosity had he ever computed the power requirements to move something the mass of a Star Destroyer to the speed of light? How about for something the size of a Death Star? Also how did he 'guesstimate' the mass of those vehicles? |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 2:28:32 PM EDT
[#5]
Actually, I could answer that as any item with ANY mass would require infinite power to go the speed of light. Ships in ST and SW do not travel AT lightspeed, but faster than it, however as the faster than light you go, the LESS energy it takes to go faster, but inversley it takes greater energy to slow yourself down back towards light speed. Think of it this way, the closer you get to lightspeed from either side, the more energy it takes. The trick in SciFi is that they come up with some fictional technology( Warp, Hyperdrive etc..) that allows them to "jump" over this lightspeed barrier without actually ever going lightspeed.  My head hurts now... if I keep going with this thread I will end up being like the comicbook shop owner on The Simpsons  But to be more specific about the power needed for a hyperspace jump, one of the Star Wars novels mentioned that
With that reference, he has been able to estimate that it would require at least 10^21 Joules,(1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000J)  Thats alot of energy.On his site somewhere I remember a section where he did the calculations for mass of those objects but I seem to be unable to find it. He does make a rough estimate as to the power requirements for hyperspace for several ships on his site, as well as the power of the DS "superlaser" and sheild strengths. It is all quite fascinating if you take the time to read it all, but the scale of the project he has undertaken is immense. I think its time to lay this thread to rest. 
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Posted: 6/9/2005 6:07:22 PM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 6/9/2005 6:29:31 PM EDT
[#7]
 guess since I fly on a crew served aircraft I've always been partial to the Snowspeeder. That and I'd still have a job in the Star Wars universe. But it's not a fighter so I picked the Viper... |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 6:37:26 PM EDT
[#8]
According to both my Star Wars Technical Guide and Star Wars: Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, the globes on Star Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers are shield generators. I believe at this point I may now laugh in your face. [Nelson] HA HA! [/Nelson] |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 6:51:53 PM EDT
[#9]
The Macross Valkyries ARE the space combat dream machine- but unfortunately even with fusion power and removing the need for volitile fuel (they do carry some reaction mass-hydrogen, water, compressed air something like that) their transformation sequence is STILL impossible. Alas. I seriously doubt we will ever have actuators that small and that powerful to fit in that kind of space and yet work in gravity and atmosphere. Actually, several things wrong with both our posts. The Veritechs don't use fusion power, they use "Reflex Furnaces", whatever those are. And according to the numerous transforming Valkyrie action figures, the transformation sequence is quite possible. The problem would be that transforming while moving at high speed in an atmosphere would likely tear the thing apart. Shoji Kawamori, the director and the origninal mechanical designer for Macross had such obsession to detail though that the impossible Valkyries actually LOOK more realistic than the technically acheveable Gundam Mobile Suits- in large part due to the Gundam world mechs child friendly box o Crayola color schemes and silly antenna. Battletech is much more technically achievable than Gundam, actually. You should check it out. The best SciFi space craft are the Babylon 5 Star Fury, and the Gundam RX-78GP01Fb from the Gundam 0083 OAV. And even though I hate the series as a whole, and most of the other mecha designs are silly, the Leo Space Type from Gundam Wing is not bad either... The LEO kicks ass, especially the Army Type. I love those heavy machine gun things they've got. THAT is a mecha that should be produced. Even if they did take marksmanship training at Stormtrooper Academy and have the average lifespan of a gnat.  |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 6:55:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Sigh....
Where shall I begin... Those two guides have many flaws that have been contradicted my many sources. Computer games introduced the whole "shield globe" idea as a simplistic means of making large warships vulnerable to the player starfighters. However globe destruction was not always effectual in the games, eg. they don't alter the shielding of Victory-class destroyers. Essential Guide to Vehicles & Vessels and the SWCCG cards followed the computer games, but STAR WARS Incredible Cross Sections indicated that the antenna/globe area is concerned with targeting. Some novels attribute shield functions to the globes, while others call them "sensor domes. Those books also falsly state the size of the Executor as only 5km, which it really is about 12km. They have the size wrong for the second Death Star as only 160km which it is over 900km in other sources. If thats not enough for you here is a quote from someone at ILM that worked on Ep. VI
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Posted: 6/9/2005 7:02:28 PM EDT
[#11]
So all the fictional sources I reference that support my theory are wrong and all the fictional sources that support your theory are correct. I see.
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Posted: 6/9/2005 7:11:36 PM EDT
[#12]
Wow. You do realize that certain sources take precedence over others.They are usually ranked as 1. Mr. Lucas himself and whatever he utters 2.People who worked on the movies and its story development, like my ILM source. 3.The films 4.Novels 5.Databooks like the ones you and I have 6.Cardgames, RPGs, and videogames You do realize my source came before yours did. It is dated 1983. The idea of the globes first appeared in the Xwing, Tie Fighter VIDEO GAMES so it would be easy for little Jimmy to kill an ISD with his Xwing and feel like a super pilot in the process. They came out in the early-mid 90's. The authors of the books based some of the info they have on those flawed games. Nuff said.
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Posted: 6/9/2005 7:12:06 PM EDT
[#13]
TIE Bomber!
(I have a Lego one of those) Good thing I'm married or i'd have no hope of getting laid! |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 7:17:00 PM EDT
[#14]
Geekiest argument EVER. 
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Posted: 6/9/2005 7:36:27 PM EDT
[#15]
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Posted: 6/9/2005 7:41:47 PM EDT
[#16]
How about the "SR71" from Star Wars I? The Queen's ship. Can anyone help with a picture please?
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Posted: 6/9/2005 7:45:42 PM EDT
[#17]
Naboo Transport:
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Posted: 6/9/2005 7:48:40 PM EDT
[#18]
I'm gonna have to go with the Y-wing.
I'm trying to fathom 900km right now...how much bigger is the 2nd death star compared to the first? How many levels/people would that thing have? |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 7:52:48 PM EDT
[#19]
George Lucas contradicts himself, nearly all of the novels you profess to be among your better sources, etc. And people who worked on the movies, unless it was the script or technical design for vehicles/vessels, are NOT the best source to look into for information on that sort of thing. |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 7:53:25 PM EDT
[#20]
My favorite is the Patriot from the PC game "StarLancer"
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Posted: 6/9/2005 7:56:53 PM EDT
[#21]
Prowlers and Marauders were both pretty cool. I loved the scene where Talon blew away a prowler, with its wreckage trashing one of the engines on the marauder behind it, sending it into a tumble. Hitting that one, without missing a beat was a hellva cool scene. Of the choices listed, however, I take the Starfuries and their big brothers, the Thunderbolts. They were just too cool. |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 8:05:52 PM EDT
[#22]
www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/ SW tech is FAR in advance of ST technology. |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 8:23:44 PM EDT
[#23]
You are right about Lucas being an asshat sometimes, but unforutunately the ILM source guy WAS one of the major creators and head workers at ILM during production. He received one of the oscars in 1983, they dont hand those out to the technicians usually, but the main designers and artists. Also this still does not explain-away the real changes that the video games made to the ISD's, and that the books data was based on them. Seriously, why are some people adverse to the fact that the globes are not shield generators. It is not like it makes your books any less enjoying to read. Look at it this way ,why would the Empire with all of its vast resources and technical knowledge place the shield gereators on top of the bridge in the wide open , while the resource strapped, improvised, inferior rebels ships did not have external shield domes??? Their ships have internal generators, so does every other ship in SW and there is no techincal reason why the ISD's dont have them inside either as they are more advanced, have unlimited construction resources, and are dedicated warships while many rebel ships were converted passenger liners! It simply does not make sense in the logical examination of the facts. The location and the shape of the globes fit the description of a sensor to a T. It is the perfect spot for long range sensors, and the geometric shape is identical to many Radar domes here in reality. Could it be that the games made the change so that the game would be more fun to play? It would not be very fun if you could never take on a ship all by yourself in a puny fighter, so they needed a shortcut to make it possible to get the shields down with only a few shots, otherwise it would take all of your missles and you would end up doing strafing runs for hours if your not shot down by its guns by now. Realistically, it would take squadrons of fighters & bombers to assault a capital ship, and the help of a capital ship of your own bombarding the ISD with heavy cannons would be nice too. |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 8:45:28 PM EDT
[#24]
At the rist of getting into a geek cat fight... Hardley Between Transporters (which would be a MAJOR technical acheivement) and the ability to navigate and use sensors while in warp (something the SW vessles cannot do). ST shows clear technogical advancement. So SW they make big ships. They need to. It it takes a Death Star sized weapon to destroy a planet. ST has the 'Genesis Torpedo' - capable of destroying a planet on its own, and it can be fired from a ship the size of a shuttle.... We won't even get into the targeting computer systems the Federation ships employ with their 'phased array' type phasers while the Empire ships have a hard time hitting the broad side of barn... Heck in the SW universe it seems they don't even have ultrasound or stethascopes (why was everyone surprised at Padme having twins?). |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 8:49:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Yep, the DS2 was in the 850-960km range, while the original was only in the 160km range. It was much larger and more powerful. Remember the DS2 could fire a "superlaser" shot every few minutes instead of days. IIRC the DS1 had a crew in the order of 1-2 million. An ISD had a crew ~ 35,000, and the Executor was in the hundreds of thousands. The DS2 should have considerably more than 2 million(if it was ever completed). |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 8:54:12 PM EDT
[#26]
Yep. You dont see any Emergency Medical Holograms in SW You dont see food replicators, or replicators of any kind for that matter. You dont see any medical devices that can heal wounds and cure disease almost instantly. SW droids dont even begin to have anything on Data |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 9:05:50 PM EDT
[#27]
Did you even look at the link? You mentioned warp. At maximum warp it takes months or years to travel even a quarter of the way across the galaxy (remember Voyager?), in SW they travel all the way across the galaxy in a matter of hours or days. Genesis torpedo? A bit of a special case as its not even really a weapon and not issued on warships. But if you want to compare then how about the Sun Crusher? A fighter sized ships that causes a supernova. Read this link for another explanation of the tech comparison: www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 9:07:32 PM EDT
[#28]
Neither does anything else in the ST universe, its not like there are hundreds of him. |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 9:11:17 PM EDT
[#29]
You seem to forget that the Star Destroyer in Ep. V was easily blasting small asteroids out of its path, which were for the most part manually targeted, but computer assisted. Starships could hit targets tens of thousands of Kilometers away without trouble. On the twins part, sometimes people do not wish to know what they are having: boy, girl, twins etc... and she may not have wanted to know so it was a surprise. The medical droids did know she had twins before they were born so they must have had some scanning tech to find out. There are teleportation tech. in SW but it is not widely used or may be experimental/risky. Hyperspace is completely different than Warp and uses a different approach to supralight travel. In SW the Empire has a galaxy wide communication net(HoloNet using hyperspace transceivers) where you can talk real-time all the way from one side to the other. While in ST subspace has limited range. So it is foolish to flat out say that either one is better than another. Both universes have their advantages and downfalls. ST has better sensors, medical care(in some areas), computers, transporters, and food replicators. SW has more powerful shields, weapons, and reactor cores, and a better organized supply and military/industrial complex. It is hard to say if Hyperspace is better than Warp as they have their own advantages. Warp is safer, you can fight and manouver while in warp, communicate and change course. Hyperspace gets you places much faster, and it is virtually impossible ot detect an approaching ship in hyperspace, but you can only go in straight lines, you risk crashing into unknown stuff, and without a HoloNet receiver, you cannot communicate while in Hyperspace. But it is quite futile to get into SW vs ST slapfights as they alway end the same and both sides are unmoved in their thoughts.
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Posted: 6/9/2005 9:11:53 PM EDT
[#30]
TIE
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Posted: 6/9/2005 9:20:56 PM EDT
[#31]
I've always liked the Y-wing as well. It seems like one of those old work horses that just keeps working. |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 9:20:59 PM EDT
[#32]
Or the billions or trillions of droids scurriying about all over the SW galaxy. Remember, the Empire spanned an ENTIRE galaxy with billions of systmes under the Emperor's rule, while the Federation takes up a small section of the Alpha quadrant. It is safe to say that the Empire has just a tad more resources and manpower available to them possibly explaining why they have no replicators, why when you could just send a few hundred million droids or convict/slave laborers to mine one of the zillions of uninhabited worlds or asteroid fields that blanket the Empire and run your many factories. |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 10:16:11 PM EDT
[#33]
Data is a one time deal, there are many many types of droids in SW, and in the SW galaxy they have bacta, the cure all. I guess I'm a geek too. Oh and for the original question, the coolest space fighter... The Incom T-65, known to most as the X-Wing |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 10:17:17 PM EDT
[#34]
I still say the Veritech VF-1S Valkyrie can kick all their asses.
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Posted: 6/9/2005 10:21:33 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 6/9/2005 10:30:25 PM EDT
[#36]
The only one I know is the X-wing
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Posted: 6/9/2005 10:31:24 PM EDT
[#37]
Uhh it's a small galaxy? I mean if they can make a near star system in a couple of months (Ep 5) then it can't be too large.
Wasn't intended as a weapon - but could be used as such. A fighter sized ship that can cause a super nova? Please - WTF do you think a Genesis device would do to a sun... And it's still smaller... Read this link for another explanation of the tech comparison: www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html Yes a seriously flawed comparison. In the 20th century we've done primitive nukes great than 64MT (Tsar bomb), after 300y you don't think they would have improved on that? But of course I forget about tricks like multi-phasic sheilding... |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 10:32:43 PM EDT
[#38]
for the love of all things good, you guys are debating things that DONT EVEN EXIST! this is even worse than a religion thread
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Posted: 6/9/2005 10:35:56 PM EDT
[#39]
 This thread is comedy gold ++ |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 10:36:29 PM EDT
[#40]
Shhhh. Just watch them go. |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 10:38:28 PM EDT
[#41]
its like watching a fight at a downs syndrome convention. |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 10:38:39 PM EDT
[#42]
'Small' being relative. They were large enough to dammage that massive ship. Again they were hitting something the size of a county full of barns....
And yet they had problems taking out those 'snub' fighters comming at them. While the Enterprise D just wiped space clean of them in that one episode where everyone's mind was altered.
B.S. You might not want to know the sex but you DAMN well want to know if there is going to be 1 or two (or more). So you can make sure you have the supplies you'll need and know how much weight gain to expect. It's part of normal pre-natal care (those of us who are parents know all about this).
never seen - never used, yet in ST the shuttle even have it now.... I look at this from an engineers point of view. All SW has done is take the basics scale them up. Instead of Scotty they have a bunch of Tim Allen clones. Nothing innovative - just 'MORE POWER'. |
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Posted: 6/9/2005 10:39:19 PM EDT
[#43]
Of course it's all in good geek fun. Can we add in the Babylon 5 universe and make it a 3 way?
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Posted: 6/9/2005 10:41:26 PM EDT
[#44]
So what you're saying is the Empire is like China, while the Federation is like the US. They solve problems with slave labor, we do it with tech. Personally I'd rather have the tech. It's much nicer to replicate a Chicken sandwich and coffee than eat a slave (or droid).
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Posted: 6/9/2005 10:42:03 PM EDT
[#45]
or maybe some X men or Final Fantasy! |
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Posted: 6/10/2005 12:15:47 AM EDT
[#46]
The pod racing thingamajig that young Anakin Skywalker flew in Star Wars I: The Phantom Menace.
Where can I buy them pod racing thingamajig? Toyota dealership? Nissan? Honda? BMW? Audi? Thinking about trading in my Toyota Sienna in 5 years.
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Posted: 6/10/2005 3:05:47 AM EDT
[#47]
Forest, I agree with you about Star Trek being more advanced than Star Wars, but why did it take so long for Star Fleet to figure out that homing torpedoes were a good idea?
 I mean, crimony, Spock slapped one together in a minutes, and Star Fleet for all of their resources couldn't invent one. 
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Posted: 6/10/2005 3:09:41 AM EDT
[#48]
It must be a small galaxy, without Hyperdrive the Falcon crossed several systems, Hoth to Noad to Bespin without the crew dying of old age. |
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Posted: 6/10/2005 3:15:34 AM EDT
[#49]
It's simple, Star Wars is unrealistic science fiction. The Death Star has a gazillion bazillion turbolasers and has a bazillion dillion square kilometers, etc...
Star Trek is what you MIGHT expect humanity to develop into in the 24th century. THeir weapon systems, ships, etc... aren't as radical as the ones used in Star Wars. The largest cruisers in the Star Trek universe are the Jem H'Dar ship, the Romulan thingy that the Picard clone used in Nemesis, etc... which pale in comparison to the Super Star Destroyer. George Lucas is like a kid... "Super" Star Destroyer. What's next? Super Duper Star Destroyer? With a gazillion bazillion quintillion turbolasers? |
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Posted: 6/10/2005 3:17:17 AM EDT
[#50]
I gotta go with The_Gooch. There has been a lot of debate about this over the years. At best, I'd consider them generators for the superstructure shields. The straw the rebels grasped at, turned out to be the one that broke the camels back. Pure coincidence. |
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