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Posted: 4/27/2024 8:45:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1975]
Russia has a good signal jamming game going.
100-mile US glide bombs fail in Ukraine Much-vaunted US-supplied glide bombs given to Ukraine “didn’t work” due to a combination of mud and Russian signal jamming, the Pentagon has admitted. The long-range weapons, which were not officially named but have been identified online as Boeing’s Ground Launched Small Diameter Bombs (GLSDB), were sent to Ukraine to help them hit targets at twice the distance reachable by current rockets. The delivery of the adapted bombs to Ukraine in late January was met with widespread enthusiasm, with military experts suggesting it could force Russia to relocate supplies farther from the front lines. But William LaPlante, the Pentagon’s weapon’s acquisition chief, said: “We sent it to the Ukrainians. It didn’t work. It didn’t work for multiple reasons including EMI [Electromagnetic interference] environment, just really, dirt, and doing it on ground.” “When you send something to people in the fight of their lives that doesn’t work, they’ll try it three times and then just throw it aside,” he added at an event at the Centre for Strategic and International Studies. A precision-guided bomb with a 100-mile range, the GLSDB attaches to an M26 rocket and is cheaper than the current limited number of Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS) rockets the US has sent. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 8:48:27 AM EDT
[#1]
Fails is the wrong word, less accurate would be a better way of putting it
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Posted: 4/27/2024 8:55:51 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: Fails is the wrong word, less accurate would be a better way of putting it If it's not hitting its target - damaged or destroyed - it's failing. This is not a carpet-bombing weapon where the target is a district. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 8:57:16 AM EDT
[#3]
Mud?? Lol
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Posted: 4/27/2024 8:57:17 AM EDT
[#4]
Seems like a great opportunity to refine that technology for better performance against our adversaries countermeasures.
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:00:33 AM EDT
[#5]
Not that it’s a good thing to fail but don’t we want to find out a weapons efficacy before our sons are relying on them to survive?
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:03:02 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: Seems like a great opportunity to refine that technology for better performance against our adversaries countermeasures. If one were jaded enough, one might surmise that's the point... |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:04:41 AM EDT
[#7]
I'm really surprised they didn't put some of the modern GPS denial countermeasures in them... Or maybe they did and AD is getting them.
Pretty interesting as most of the modern(ish) systems have been bang up successes. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:05:20 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: Seems like a great opportunity to refine that technology for better performance against our adversaries countermeasures. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:05:22 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MrKandiyohi: If it's not hitting its target - damaged or destroyed - it's failing. This is not a carpet-bombing weapon where the target is a district. Without GPS updates it’s 250lbs class warhead has limited effects against point targets, and it becomes an area fire weapon system Their FDOs need to take into account they are firing a course correcting munition, but in a GPS degraded environment it’s only good enough for area targets |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:11:24 AM EDT
[#10]
These have inertial navigation that should get them into the ballpark despite jamming and air burst fuses that wouldn't be affected in the slightest by mud. That stuff works well on many other systems, so I don't see why it would fail here unless Boeing/SAAB fucked something up.
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:14:34 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mal_means_bad: These have inertial navigation that should get them into the ballpark despite jamming and air burst fuses that wouldn't be affected in the slightest by mud. That stuff works well on many other systems, so I don't see why it would fail here unless Boeing/SAAB fucked something up. INS drift as the distance from initialization increases. We solves for this problem by doing updates in flight via some form of PNT Proximity fuzes are actually effected by mud and wet ground, you compensate for that via adjusting the terminal angle of fall |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:14:51 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mal_means_bad: These have inertial navigation that should get them into the ballpark despite jamming and air burst fuses that wouldn't be affected in the slightest by mud. That stuff works well on many other systems, so I don't see why it would fail here unless Boeing/SAAB fucked something up. Lately all Boeing stands for is fuckup! |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:16:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: crownvic96]
[#13]
That and a related warzone article also mention not only the EMI environment but TTPs and DOTMLPF as issues too. If you're just yeeting really sophisticated shit out then it can have less the desirable effects.
But...I'm not that familiar with this specific weapons system so it would be interesting to see if it only works off of [US] GPS or if it can pull from other constellations and also what INS it also has. IIRC it was meant to be an inexpensive weapon to take advantage of the SDB's and M26 motor stock. This thing came about in the middle of our forever wars with mudhut goat fuckers so it's original design intent was something inexpensive with longer legs on it for precision fires so being in a majorly contested EMI environment was probably not that high of a design priority to keep the costs reasonable. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:19:30 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: Seems like a great opportunity to refine that technology for better performance against our adversaries countermeasures. +1 Regardless of how we feel about Ukrainian freedom, This is one thing we can all agree on: It’s a great proving ground for our weapons systems. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:21:04 AM EDT
[#15]
I suppose the only positive out of our involvement with something that is none of our business is that we are getting good intelligence on what does and doesn't work in this sort of battle space.
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:24:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: HDLS]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: Fails is the wrong word, less accurate would be a better way of putting it Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: Fails is the wrong word, less accurate would be a better way of putting it Originally Posted By MrKandiyohi: If it's not hitting its target - damaged or destroyed - it's failing. This is not a carpet-bombing weapon where the target is a district. 
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:28:54 AM EDT
[#17]
This is one of the upsides to arming Ukraine. Find flaws on our designs before we are using them ourselves
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:35:29 AM EDT
[#18]
Maybe the next 100 billion dollar worth of equipment will work...
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MOZ
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:36:11 AM EDT
[#19]
So, put a camera in it and make it gay?
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:36:42 AM EDT
[#20]
Real world environment and room for improvement
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:37:15 AM EDT
[#21]
Real world testing is a thing. Nothing in war is stagnant. Better to find out now rather than later.
Back to the drawing board. 
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:38:30 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By governmentman: This is one of the upsides to arming Ukraine. Find flaws on our designs before we are using them ourselves We don’t need to spends billions to know not using weapons built to use under the frame work of US doctrine and TTP without that same TTP fails most of the time. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:39:34 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: Fails is the wrong word, less accurate would be a better way of putting it 
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:40:01 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: Seems like a great opportunity to refine that technology for better performance against our adversaries countermeasures. this. those weapons are there to see why they fail and how they can be made better. the result is better weapons. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:41:21 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillofRights: +1 Regardless of how we feel about Ukrainian freedom, This is one thing we can all agree on: It’s a great proving ground for our weapons systems. Haven't we had a lot of proving ground in recent years? We fight (nearly) continuously. Maybe we are just clearing inventory. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:42:44 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tnriverluver: Lately all Boeing stands for is fuckup! Exactly, the main stream media told me that after they watched a movie on Netflix. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:43:18 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillofRights: +1 Regardless of how we feel about Ukrainian freedom, This is one thing we can all agree on: It’s a great proving ground for our weapons systems. In that case Boeing and other defense industry product testers should be happy to have the 'real world' opportunity to test and refine their products and thus provide them to Ukraine at a steep discount at minimum. No need for the US to directly fund it, .gov only needs to authorize it's transfer (ITAR) |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:43:59 AM EDT
[#28]
How does "dirt" and "doing it on the ground"
affect a glide bomb? Were these intended to be launched from an aircraft? What's dirt got to do with it? |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:44:05 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lexington: Haven't we had a lot of proving ground in recent years? We fight (nearly) continuously. Maybe we are just clearing inventory. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lexington: Originally Posted By BillofRights: +1 Regardless of how we feel about Ukrainian freedom, This is one thing we can all agree on: It's a great proving ground for our weapons systems. Haven't we had a lot of proving ground in recent years? We fight (nearly) continuously. Maybe we are just clearing inventory. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:46:24 AM EDT
[#30]
Ukrainians are famous for treating artillery rounds with exceptional care and using weapons as designed, so I am shocked at this.
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:52:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: juan223]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Aimless: How does "dirt" and "doing it on the ground" affect a glide bomb? Were these intended to be launched from an aircraft? What's dirt got to do with it? I'm guessing a combination of attack angle and the mud and soft ground are not allowing the fuse/detonator to initiate, kind of like a 40mm round impacting in the mud... 
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:56:11 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JarheadPatriot: The amount of copium in these threads is amazing. Oh ffs. GPS jammers didn’t stop the airbase at dzhankoy from getting rocked with missiles 
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AL, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:57:47 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Aimless: How does "dirt" and "doing it on the ground" affect a glide bomb? Were these intended to be launched from an aircraft? What's dirt got to do with it? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Aimless: How does "dirt" and "doing it on the ground" affect a glide bomb? Were these intended to be launched from an aircraft? What's dirt got to do with it? I think when the requirement originally came out there was like 500k+ M26 rockets in inventory so it was (in theory) going to be a lower cost way to add some additional precision fires at a decent range to the inventory. What's interesting is the SAAB site says it has anti-jam features. https://www.saab.com/products/ground-launched-small-diameter-bomb-glsdb SDB is a 250-pound class weapon with an Advanced Anti-Jam GPS System-aided Inertial Navigation System, combined with a multipurpose, penetrating blast-and-fragmentation warhead and programmable electronic fuze. I'm guessing the TTP's (or lack thereof) are they're probably launching 1 or 2 in a fairly direct route and they're just getting blasted with EMI/Jamming. They really should be launched in a volley with them programmed to attack a target from multiple directions. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:03:51 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By crownvic96: It's basically a kit that adapts a SDB size warhead and glide body to a M26 rocket that can be fired from a MLRS/HIMAARS and turns it into a glider. I think when the requirement originally came out there was like 500k+ M26 rockets in inventory so it was (in theory) going to be a lower cost way to add some additional precision fires at a decent range to the inventory. What's interesting is the SAAB site says it has anti-jam features. https://www.saab.com/products/ground-launched-small-diameter-bomb-glsdb I'm guessing the TTP's (or lack thereof) are they're probably launching 1 or 2 in a fairly direct route and they're just getting blasted with EMI/Jamming. They really should be launched in a volley with them programmed to attack a target from multiple directions. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By crownvic96: Originally Posted By Aimless: How does "dirt" and "doing it on the ground" affect a glide bomb? Were these intended to be launched from an aircraft? What's dirt got to do with it? I think when the requirement originally came out there was like 500k+ M26 rockets in inventory so it was (in theory) going to be a lower cost way to add some additional precision fires at a decent range to the inventory. What's interesting is the SAAB site says it has anti-jam features. https://www.saab.com/products/ground-launched-small-diameter-bomb-glsdb SDB is a 250-pound class weapon with an Advanced Anti-Jam GPS System-aided Inertial Navigation System, combined with a multipurpose, penetrating blast-and-fragmentation warhead and programmable electronic fuze. I'm guessing the TTP's (or lack thereof) are they're probably launching 1 or 2 in a fairly direct route and they're just getting blasted with EMI/Jamming. They really should be launched in a volley with them programmed to attack a target from multiple directions. I'm wondering if the low(er) glide speed is allowing the GPS to drift off from spoofing enough to be significant, but not significant enough for the INS to take full command. The Russians and others are pretty damn good at GPS spoofing and denial. Iran demonstrated the ability to great effect several years ago. |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:06:04 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: Seems like a great opportunity to refine that technology for better performance against our adversaries countermeasures. Seems like a great opportunity for our adversaries to refine their technology for better performance against our weapons. An example would be all of the Patriot batteries the Russians have damaged or outright taken out of action so far in this conflict...  Or the Taurus / Scalp garbage that has failed to reach any targets repeatedly...   |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:09:25 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By crownvic96: It's basically a kit that adapts a SDB size warhead and glide body to a M26 rocket that can be fired from a MLRS/HIMAARS and turns it into a glider. I think when the requirement originally came out there was like 500k+ M26 rockets in inventory so it was (in theory) going to be a lower cost way to add some additional precision fires at a decent range to the inventory. What's interesting is the SAAB site says it has anti-jam features. https://www.saab.com/products/ground-launched-small-diameter-bomb-glsdb I'm guessing the TTP's (or lack thereof) are they're probably launching 1 or 2 in a fairly direct route and they're just getting blasted with EMI/Jamming. They really should be launched in a volley with them programmed to attack a target from multiple directions. Interesting product, that's not at all what I was envisioning... 
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:12:33 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By juan223: I'm guessing a combination of attack angle and the mud and soft ground are not allowing the fuse/detonator to initiate, kind of like a 40mm round impacting in the mud... |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:12:59 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lokifox: I'm wondering if the low(er) glide speed is allowing the GPS to drift off from spoofing enough to be significant, but not significant enough for the INS to take full command. The Russians and others are pretty damn good at GPS spoofing and denial. Iran demonstrated the ability to great effect several years ago. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lokifox: Originally Posted By crownvic96: Originally Posted By Aimless: How does "dirt" and "doing it on the ground" affect a glide bomb? Were these intended to be launched from an aircraft? What's dirt got to do with it? I think when the requirement originally came out there was like 500k+ M26 rockets in inventory so it was (in theory) going to be a lower cost way to add some additional precision fires at a decent range to the inventory. What's interesting is the SAAB site says it has anti-jam features. https://www.saab.com/products/ground-launched-small-diameter-bomb-glsdb SDB is a 250-pound class weapon with an Advanced Anti-Jam GPS System-aided Inertial Navigation System, combined with a multipurpose, penetrating blast-and-fragmentation warhead and programmable electronic fuze. I'm guessing the TTP's (or lack thereof) are they're probably launching 1 or 2 in a fairly direct route and they're just getting blasted with EMI/Jamming. They really should be launched in a volley with them programmed to attack a target from multiple directions. I'm wondering if the low(er) glide speed is allowing the GPS to drift off from spoofing enough to be significant, but not significant enough for the INS to take full command. The Russians and others are pretty damn good at GPS spoofing and denial. Iran demonstrated the ability to great effect several years ago. I'm sure Boeing/Saab would love to sell an upgraded GN&C package for an extra $100k per munition though. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:16:59 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lexington: Haven't we had a lot of proving ground in recent years? We fight (nearly) continuously. Maybe we are just clearing inventory. I'd say we're lacking in recent experience against major (Russia/China) state actors. I'd willingly pay my tax dollars for Ukraine/Taiwan to do that for us. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:17:03 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By crownvic96: There's a lot it could be and GPS/INS GN&C is not one of my strong areas. I know degraded/denied INS has been a huge topic within the DoD for a very long time though. Assured PNT has gotten a lot of research but how much is actually able to get into existing systems, especially ones like this that were kind of meant to be lower cost fires solutions is probably low. I'm sure Boeing/Saab would love to sell an upgraded GN&C package for an extra $100k per munition though. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By crownvic96: Originally Posted By lokifox: Originally Posted By crownvic96: Originally Posted By Aimless: How does "dirt" and "doing it on the ground" affect a glide bomb? Were these intended to be launched from an aircraft? What's dirt got to do with it? I think when the requirement originally came out there was like 500k+ M26 rockets in inventory so it was (in theory) going to be a lower cost way to add some additional precision fires at a decent range to the inventory. What's interesting is the SAAB site says it has anti-jam features. https://www.saab.com/products/ground-launched-small-diameter-bomb-glsdb SDB is a 250-pound class weapon with an Advanced Anti-Jam GPS System-aided Inertial Navigation System, combined with a multipurpose, penetrating blast-and-fragmentation warhead and programmable electronic fuze. I'm guessing the TTP's (or lack thereof) are they're probably launching 1 or 2 in a fairly direct route and they're just getting blasted with EMI/Jamming. They really should be launched in a volley with them programmed to attack a target from multiple directions. I'm wondering if the low(er) glide speed is allowing the GPS to drift off from spoofing enough to be significant, but not significant enough for the INS to take full command. The Russians and others are pretty damn good at GPS spoofing and denial. Iran demonstrated the ability to great effect several years ago. I'm sure Boeing/Saab would love to sell an upgraded GN&C package for an extra $100k per munition though. I'm sure the fix is already well understood. Cost and time are serious issues these days. I doubt DOD wants to go balls deep on something that has little value in the Pacific right now. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:18:13 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: Seems like a great opportunity to refine that technology for better performance against our adversaries countermeasures. This is the only benefit I can think of. The downside is you know Russian and Chinese EW hardware is tracking and recording everything we do, themselves preparing to fight us one day. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:22:04 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lokifox: I'm sure the fix is already well understood. Cost and time are serious issues these days. I doubt DOD wants to go balls deep on something that has little value in the Pacific right now. Augustine's Law XII: It costs a lot to build bad products. Augustine's Law XXXVII: Ninety percent of the time things will turn out worse than you expect. The other 10 percent of the time you had no right to expect so much. Systems engineering be hard y0!
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:27:10 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rodical: Maybe the next 100 billion dollar worth of equipment will work... I’m glad it’s not my kid finding out it didn’t work. Yall ain’t looking at a giant ulterior reason we are helping ukraine. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:29:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: HDLS]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JarheadPatriot: The amount of copium in these threads is amazing. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JarheadPatriot: Originally Posted By R0N: Fails is the wrong word, less accurate would be a better way of putting it Or you know, maybe he's a subject matter expert on the planning and employment of fires and these type of weapons and stating the facts as he sees them based upon his knowledge and experience and not "copium". |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:39:39 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Action45: Mud?? Lol Mental utilitarian dwarfism? |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:40:31 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WUPHF: Seems like a great opportunity to refine that technology for better performance against our adversaries countermeasures. The Russians are learning and refining too. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:41:51 AM EDT
[#47]
Good!
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:43:07 AM EDT
[#48]
We’ve sent a lot of equipment there without adequate Adidas-compatibility review.
Remember that kid WowPro? They should promote him to CWO2 and have him test any system contemplated for use in tracksuit countries. If he can figure it out, and it still works after the loss of the portions that he steals, breaks or misappropriates, then send it to Ukraine. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:47:20 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ServusVeritatis: I’m glad it’s not my kid finding out it didn’t work. Yall ain’t looking at a giant ulterior reason we are helping ukraine. That is so insanely retarded that’s it probably feels warm and comfortable. You know our likely competent and capable enemies, the guys who can sell you a 100% functional camera drone in unlimited numbers for $200 each at Costco, are also learning about our systems capabilities and countermeasures. And we are expending so much stuff that “your kid” won’t have munitions to expend during a fight or train with before the fight. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:48:30 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By crownvic96: Our "experience" has been 20 years of asymmetric goat fucking snackbar warfare in uncontested environments. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By crownvic96: Originally Posted By Lexington: Originally Posted By BillofRights: +1 Regardless of how we feel about Ukrainian freedom, This is one thing we can all agree on: It's a great proving ground for our weapons systems. Haven't we had a lot of proving ground in recent years? We fight (nearly) continuously. Maybe we are just clearing inventory. Bingo. |
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