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Callsign: Doc. For my wild hair and DeLorean
OH, USA
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Originally Posted By Hesperus: NASA and ORNL have been working on Sterling engine nuclear reactors for space exploration for years now. Last time I looked into it they had prototypes that had proven to be very reliable. That's the kind of tech that humanity is going to need if we are going to settle other world's. Solar panels ain't going to cut the mustard. This is almost a year old. Unsurprisingly the Chinese have gotten in on the game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chv6_seOaWw View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Hesperus: Originally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By JimEb: A sterling engine to run an electric generator or something? Its not that easy or efficient to capture heat energy and convert it to a different usable energy form. Small Sterling cycle engines were common in the US in the 1800's. Most were broken up in WW 1 scrap drives. A local threshers group owns one that is set up at their fairground. Fired with wood. It's as cool as a steam engine. NASA and ORNL have been working on Sterling engine nuclear reactors for space exploration for years now. Last time I looked into it they had prototypes that had proven to be very reliable. That's the kind of tech that humanity is going to need if we are going to settle other world's. Solar panels ain't going to cut the mustard. This is almost a year old. Unsurprisingly the Chinese have gotten in on the game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chv6_seOaWw Those engines are INSANELY expensive. NASA has been using stirlings for various things for a very long time. They do have engines that have ridiculous life ratings, but they require watchmaker-like manufacturing, assembly and fitting with current designs. |
"We're all new here, kid. The old ones are either dead or in the hospital. What the hell did you expect, a two week pass to Paris? Get in line and do what you're told, or you'll be dead before sunup."
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Callsign: Doc. For my wild hair and DeLorean
OH, USA
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Originally Posted By L_JE: Some naval Brayton cycle engines have enough intercooling and reheat that they are a good approximation a Sterling cycle. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By L_JE: Originally Posted By JimEb: A sterling engine to run an electric generator or something? Its not that easy or efficient to capture heat energy and convert it to a different usable energy form. If you can find good ways around having the valve in the hot space (if using a piston) brayton is actually quite a nice cycle to work with. |
"We're all new here, kid. The old ones are either dead or in the hospital. What the hell did you expect, a two week pass to Paris? Get in line and do what you're told, or you'll be dead before sunup."
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"Sometimes reasonable men must do unreasonable things" Marvin Heemeyer
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As others have said, the cost/weight penalty to recover exhaust heat compared to what you would get makes it impractical for automotive applications.
Looking as a similar waste problem, steam locomotives are nearly all open cycle, discharging the expanded steam to the atmosphere rather than condensing it and feeding it back into the boiler. This might seem incredibly wasteful given that water supply was often one of the biggest headaches associated with operating these locomotives. As it turns out, some railroads with a lot of desert miles tried condensers and found them to be more trouble than they were worth. |
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Originally Posted By L_JE: I'm not terribly familiar with the 787 aspects, but F-35 doesn't employ batteries for these purposes. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By L_JE: Originally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By L_JE: Not waste-heat, per se, but now go down the rabbit hole of aircraft MEA concepts: B-787, F-35, etc. Be certain the batteries are in large steel boxes that contain the fire next time. Way back about 1990 we installed 90 kVa generators on a flight test F-15 for the power demands of an ESA radar (preceded AESA!) and the supporting equipment stuffed in. I think the current generators are much larger; I can't find the blueprints quickly to let everyone know. That was a reasonably fun project. After the 787 batteries caught fire, I ridiculed Seattle for fixing the problem with steel boxes. Quick, dirty, and cheap. |
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Keep your powder dry, and watch your back trail.
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6-stroke engine adds a water injection and steam expansion cycle between the exhaust and intake stroke.
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Originally Posted By RocketmanOU: Those engines are INSANELY expensive. NASA has been using stirlings for various things for a very long time. They do have engines that have ridiculous life ratings, but they require watchmaker-like manufacturing, assembly and fitting with current designs. View Quote Not surprising to hear they are expensive, I mean this is a nuclear reactor we are talking about. I expect that whenever we get serious about offworld colonization we will probably use bigger reactors with more conventional cooling loop systems. These little things might provide enough power for a probe or a scientific outpost with no more than a few people. But we are going to need things that can drive large scale industrial processes for life in space to become anything more than a prestige project of large nation states. As for the 6 stroke engine idea. I have liked the sound of that since I first heard of it. But I would guess there's some issues there that prevent the tech from filtering down to commercial automobiles. I can see how spraying water on a hot piston head could cause trouble. |
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It’s… probably not as bad as you think it is.
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Originally Posted By AeroE: After the 787 batteries caught fire, I ridiculed Seattle for fixing the problem with steel boxes. Quick, dirty, and cheap. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By L_JE: Originally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By L_JE: Not waste-heat, per se, but now go down the rabbit hole of aircraft MEA concepts: B-787, F-35, etc. Be certain the batteries are in large steel boxes that contain the fire next time. Way back about 1990 we installed 90 kVa generators on a flight test F-15 for the power demands of an ESA radar (preceded AESA!) and the supporting equipment stuffed in. I think the current generators are much larger; I can't find the blueprints quickly to let everyone know. That was a reasonably fun project. After the 787 batteries caught fire, I ridiculed Seattle for fixing the problem with steel boxes. Quick, dirty, and cheap. |
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Originally Posted By L_JE: Aside from perhaps obviating a pneumatic starter on the APU, those batteries don't have anything to do with MEA. I can't think of a current aircraft that isn't employing a ckpt batt or main batt. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By L_JE: Originally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By L_JE: Originally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By L_JE: Not waste-heat, per se, but now go down the rabbit hole of aircraft MEA concepts: B-787, F-35, etc. Be certain the batteries are in large steel boxes that contain the fire next time. Way back about 1990 we installed 90 kVa generators on a flight test F-15 for the power demands of an ESA radar (preceded AESA!) and the supporting equipment stuffed in. I think the current generators are much larger; I can't find the blueprints quickly to let everyone know. That was a reasonably fun project. After the 787 batteries caught fire, I ridiculed Seattle for fixing the problem with steel boxes. Quick, dirty, and cheap. Tell us the definition of MEA. I believe it refers to all electric aircraft. The 787 is approaching all electric, and the batteries are included in addition to generation. |
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Keep your powder dry, and watch your back trail.
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Originally Posted By AeroE: Tell us the definition of MEA. I believe it refers to all electric aircraft. The 787 is approaching all electric, and the batteries are included in addition to generation. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By L_JE: Originally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By L_JE: Originally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By L_JE: Not waste-heat, per se, but now go down the rabbit hole of aircraft MEA concepts: B-787, F-35, etc. Be certain the batteries are in large steel boxes that contain the fire next time. Way back about 1990 we installed 90 kVa generators on a flight test F-15 for the power demands of an ESA radar (preceded AESA!) and the supporting equipment stuffed in. I think the current generators are much larger; I can't find the blueprints quickly to let everyone know. That was a reasonably fun project. After the 787 batteries caught fire, I ridiculed Seattle for fixing the problem with steel boxes. Quick, dirty, and cheap. Tell us the definition of MEA. I believe it refers to all electric aircraft. The 787 is approaching all electric, and the batteries are included in addition to generation. http://www.lb.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_4_07/article_02_1.html |
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Callsign: Doc. For my wild hair and DeLorean
OH, USA
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Originally Posted By Hesperus: Not surprising to hear they are expensive, I mean this is a nuclear reactor we are talking about. I expect that whenever we get serious about offworld colonization we will probably use bigger reactors with more conventional cooling loop systems. These little things might provide enough power for a probe or a scientific outpost with no more than a few people. But we are going to need things that can drive large scale industrial processes for life in space to become anything more than a prestige project of large nation states. As for the 6 stroke engine idea. I have liked the sound of that since I first heard of it. But I would guess there's some issues there that prevent the tech from filtering down to commercial automobiles. I can see how spraying water on a hot piston head could cause trouble. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Hesperus: Originally Posted By RocketmanOU: Those engines are INSANELY expensive. NASA has been using stirlings for various things for a very long time. They do have engines that have ridiculous life ratings, but they require watchmaker-like manufacturing, assembly and fitting with current designs. Not surprising to hear they are expensive, I mean this is a nuclear reactor we are talking about. I expect that whenever we get serious about offworld colonization we will probably use bigger reactors with more conventional cooling loop systems. These little things might provide enough power for a probe or a scientific outpost with no more than a few people. But we are going to need things that can drive large scale industrial processes for life in space to become anything more than a prestige project of large nation states. As for the 6 stroke engine idea. I have liked the sound of that since I first heard of it. But I would guess there's some issues there that prevent the tech from filtering down to commercial automobiles. I can see how spraying water on a hot piston head could cause trouble. Yeah, scaling is difficult for conventional stirlings. They get heavy very quickly. Standard alternator designs are a delicate impedance match to make sure the engine doesn't run away. And from an efficiency standpoint, it's tough to get the heat to go into the working space of the engine instead of anywhere else. |
"We're all new here, kid. The old ones are either dead or in the hospital. What the hell did you expect, a two week pass to Paris? Get in line and do what you're told, or you'll be dead before sunup."
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