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Posted: 4/11/2024 10:04:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Everrest]
Washington Post Justice Dept. finalizes rules to close ‘gun show loophole’

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/final-rule-definition-engaged-business-dealer-firearms (cold)
A firearm with a pen laying on an official application to own or manufacture a firearm.

On April 10, 2024, the Attorney General signed ATF’s final rule, Definition of “Engaged in the Business” as a Dealer in Firearms, amending ATF’s regulations in title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (“CFR”), part 478. The final rule implements the provisions of the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act (“BSCA,” effective June 25, 2022), which broadened the definition of when a person is considered “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms (other than a gunsmith or pawnbroker). The Final Rule clarifies that definition. It will be published in the Federal Register and will be effective 30-days from publication.

This final rule incorporates BSCA’s definitions of “predominantly earn a profit” and “terrorism,” and amends the regulatory definitions of “engaged in the business as a dealer other than a gunsmith or pawnbroker” and “principal objective of livelihood and profit” to ensure each conforms with the BSCA’s statutory changes and can be relied upon by the public.

The final rule clarifies when a person is “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms at wholesale or retail by:

clarifying the definition of “dealer,” and defining the terms “purchase,” “sale,” and “something of value” as they apply to dealers;
adding definitions for the term “personal collection (or personal collection of firearms, or personal firearms collection),” and for “responsible person”;
setting forth conduct that is presumed to constitute “engaging in the business” of dealing in firearms, and presumed to demonstrate the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” from the sale or disposition of firearms, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, in civil and administrative proceedings;
clarifying that the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” does not require the person to have received pecuniary gain, and that intent does not have to be shown when a person purchases or sells a firearm for criminal or terrorism purposes;
clarifying the circumstances when a person would not be presumed to engaged in the business of dealing in firearms, including as an auctioneer, or when purchasing firearms for, and selling firearms from, a personal collection;
addressing the procedures former licensees, and responsible persons acting on behalf of such licensees, must follow when they liquidate business inventory upon revocation or other termination of their license; and
clarifying that licensees must follow the verification and recordkeeping procedures in 27 CFR 478.94 and Subpart H, rather than using an ATF Form 4473 when firearms are transferred to other licensees, including transfers by a licensed sole proprietor to that person’s personal collection.
Please note that this is the text of the final rule as signed by the Attorney General, but the official version of the final rule will be as it is published in the Federal Register. The rule will go into effect once it is published in the Federal Register.
View Quote

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/ruling/atf-final-rule-definition-engaged-business-dealer-firearms/download   (466 pages)

ETA:
BREAKING NEWS: ATF's New Rule Is LIVE & It Affects YOU! Engaged In The Business
BREAKING NEWS: ATF's New Rule Is LIVE & It Affects YOU! Engaged In The Business


ETA: 04/18/2024
Set to publish Friday 4/19/2024
Attachment Attached File


Current links are to the unpublished:
Federal Register: 04/18/2024 Public Inspection Issue

Permalink: Bipartisan Safer Communities Act Conforming Regulations (Rule)
Bipartisan Safer Communities Act Conforming Regulations (41 page Rule pdf)

Permalink: Definition of Engaged in the Business as a Dealer in Firearms (416 pages)
Definition of Engaged in the Business as a Dealer in Firearms (416 page PDF)
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:06:35 AM EDT
[#1]
BREAKING NEWS!! New ATF Rules On Dealing Guns Released
BREAKING NEWS!! New ATF Rules On Dealing Guns Released
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:08:29 AM EDT
[#2]
summary?

Am a "dealer" if I sell a rifle to someone locally?
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:08:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: N1150x] [#3]
So if you have an FFL you can't perform any private sales? I know what they want to do but I can't really tell what they are doing.

EDIT: ATF is gay

So if I sell a 100 year-old bourbon do I need a liquor license?
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:11:51 AM EDT
[#4]
LOL
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:14:45 AM EDT
[#5]
In for the needless speculation without posting any facts.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:15:41 AM EDT
[#6]
Okay, so in laymen's terms?



Oh, and fuck the ATF.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:15:46 AM EDT
[#7]
God the ATF sucks so much dick. All of the dick.

Fuuuuuuuuck the ATF.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:15:52 AM EDT
[#8]
Why bother even having a Congress if .gov agencies and the potato potus simply make up whatever laws they want?
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:18:37 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dragynn:
Why bother even having a Congress if .gov agencies and the potato potus simply make up whatever laws they want?
View Quote



That's the way Congress likes it.  Then they they can hold 'hearings' and grandstand but they aren't 'to blame' for it and will eternally 'work to fight' it.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:22:23 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jd2395:
summary?

Am a "dealer" if I sell a rifle to someone locally?
View Quote

If you sell for a "profit" then yes.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:27:51 AM EDT
[#11]
buh bye private transferable sales. since they are hardly for profit. cocksuckers.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:31:48 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MudEagle:

If you sell for a "profit" then yes.
View Quote


Actually, under this definition, it sounds like you had to intend to make a profit, you could lose money and be a dealer.

Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:33:16 AM EDT
[#13]
Similarly, there is no minimum number of transactions that determines whether a person is “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms.  Even a single firearm transaction, or offer to engage in a transaction, when combined with other evidence, may be sufficient to require a license.  For example, even under the previous statutory definition, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when few firearms, if any, were actually sold, when other factors were also present, such as the person representing to others a willingness and ability to repetitively purchase firearms for resale.
View Quote


Here we go...
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:33:52 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Grunteled:



That's the way Congress likes it.  Then they they can hold 'hearings' and grandstand but they aren't 'to blame' for it and will eternally 'work to fight' it.
View Quote

That only works because the voting public is retarded.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:35:07 AM EDT
[#15]
This kills any online or advertised private sales. You can still sell. You just better be sure it isn’t an atf agent and someone you trust who won’t shoot up a bunch of shit then tell them you sold them the gun or an aTF trace bring it back to you.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:35:25 AM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By akguy1985:
Okay, so in laymen's terms?



Oh, and fuck the ATF.
View Quote


Part of it looks like “Even if you are selling at a loss, taking in any money means you are trying to make a profit and that means you are a business.”
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:36:42 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By thezentree:
God the ATF sucks so much dick. All of the dick.

Fuuuuuuuuck the ATF.
View Quote

The dick that has been, the dick that is, and the dick that will be
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:38:14 AM EDT
[#18]
What about the guns they gave the cartel?
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:38:53 AM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rb889:


Part of it looks like “Even if you are selling at a loss, taking in any money means you are trying to make a profit and that means you are a business.”
View Quote



Yeah, that's dumb.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:38:59 AM EDT
[#20]
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:39:33 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mgwantob:


Here we go...
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mgwantob:
Similarly, there is no minimum number of transactions that determines whether a person is “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms.  Even a single firearm transaction, or offer to engage in a transaction, when combined with other evidence, may be sufficient to require a license.  For example, even under the previous statutory definition, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when few firearms, if any, were actually sold, when other factors were also present, such as the person representing to others a willingness and ability to repetitively purchase firearms for resale.


Here we go...

Then I can have an ffl without ever selling a single gun
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:40:09 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By thezentree:
God the ATF sucks so much dick. All of the dick.

Fuuuuuuuuck the ATF.
View Quote



This exactly. I don't know how anyone can work there and think they are doing anything but destroying the constitution and freedom
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:42:35 AM EDT
[#23]
Can one of you retired boomers read the 466 pages and give cliff notes to the busy people paying into your social security.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:43:41 AM EDT
[#24]
setting forth conduct that is presumed to constitute “engaging in the business” of dealing in firearms, and presumed to demonstrate the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” from the sale or disposition of firearms, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, in civil and administrative proceedings;
clarifying that the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” does not require the person to have received pecuniary gain, and that intent does not have to be shown when a person purchases or sells a firearm for criminal or terrorism purposes;
View Quote


So everyone is a dealer.
Attachment Attached File


Kharn
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:44:01 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By luscioman:
Can one of you retired boomers read the 466 pages and give cliff notes to the busy people paying into your social security.
View Quote

They can fuck you over at any moment with zero recourse. That's the gist of it.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:44:02 AM EDT
[#26]
So any collector who expects his/her collection to go up in value could be a dealer even if they are only holding inventory to sell at a later date?
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:45:05 AM EDT
[#27]
This is almost like some morbid Jeff Foxworthy comedy routine, "You may actually be a dealer if..."
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:45:22 AM EDT
[#28]
won't comply
fuck biden/aft
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:48:45 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MudEagle:

If you sell for a "profit" then yes.
View Quote


By that definition, anyone that sells or trades in their vehicle for more than they paid needs to be a licensed car dealer.  Anyone that sells their house for more than they paid for it years ago needs to be a licensed real estate agent, etc.

Who decides what a firearm is worth over time?  I guess if I want to sell a gun I no longer want I will self declare the value to me as $10,000 so that I will be selling at a major loss.

Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:52:10 AM EDT
[#30]
I ignore Illinois' laws as much as I could.  I think I'll do the same with these rules too.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 10:56:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: johnhd] [#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By luscioman:
Can one of you retired boomers read the 466 pages and give cliff notes to the busy people paying into your social security.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By luscioman:
Can one of you retired boomers read the 466 pages and give cliff notes to the busy people paying into your social security.

You sell gun.
You go jail.
Or maybe you no go jail.
ATF decide.

Here's the one that will probably have the most impact from the rule text:
Presumptions that a person is engaged in the business as a dealer.
In civil and administrative proceedings, a person shall be presumed to be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms as defined in paragraph (a) of this section, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, when it is shown that the person—
...
(3) Repetitively resells or offers for resale firearms
 (i) Within 30 days after the person purchased the firearms; or
 (ii) Within one year after the person purchased the firearms if they are
   (A) New, or like new in their original packaging; or
   (B) The same make and model, or variants thereof;

It seems like "repetitively" would be either 2+ or 3+.  Some of their Armslist examples mention an average of 3 sales per user.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:00:07 AM EDT
[#32]
If the ATF is requiring FFL's, they better actually issue FFL's to people without storefronts, operating hours, LLC's, secure storage, etc.

Having two different definitions of who needs an FFL and who they will issue one too isn't going to work in front of an unbiased judge.  I know they don't care about this contradiction.

This also opens the door to challenging the entire FFL licensing scheme, which very clearly fails a Bruen analysis and has no historical analogues.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:00:44 AM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:01:46 AM EDT
[#34]
Sounds like it's time for a little text, history and tradition.  Did FFLs exist at the time of the founding?
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:02:14 AM EDT
[#35]
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:03:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: johnhd] [#36]
Comment moved outside of the 20+ page screenshot sandwich.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:03:40 AM EDT
[#37]
466 pages... Wow...
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:05:11 AM EDT
[#39]
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:08:54 AM EDT
[#40]
This is so monumentally retarded

Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:09:49 AM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By luscioman:
Can one of you retired boomers read the 466 pages and give cliff notes to the busy people paying into your social security.
View Quote



I would, but I’m busy scratching my balls, drinking coffee and surfing Arfcom.

Maybe after my nap….
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:12:13 AM EDT
[#42]
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:13:34 AM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PR361:



I would, but I’m busy scratching my balls, drinking coffee and surfing Arfcom.

Maybe after my nap….
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By PR361:
Originally Posted By luscioman:
Can one of you retired boomers read the 466 pages and give cliff notes to the busy people paying into your social security.



I would, but I’m busy scratching my balls, drinking coffee and surfing Arfcom.

Maybe after my nap….

I converted the last 15 pages ( new text) to .jpg and posted them above.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:13:34 AM EDT
[#44]
Is it for profit if a storage/safekeeping fee was accrued/assessed during the time I owned it?  I imagine I've lost money on each one I've sold!
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:15:25 AM EDT
[#45]
466 pages? Impossible to understand or comply with. Probably intended it that way.

Court challenge for this likely?
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:16:10 AM EDT
[#46]
Does this apply to the car trunk dealing hood rats too?

Asking for a friend


Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:16:10 AM EDT
[#47]
What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:17:02 AM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
View Quote




Who the fuck allows those cock suckers to have a booth at shot show?
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:17:12 AM EDT
[#49]
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:17:22 AM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Action45:
What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud.
View Quote


Great question.  It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL.  If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer?
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