User Panel
Posted: 5/5/2024 10:16:52 PM EDT
Anytime a 2A conversation lasts long enough, some ass-clown inevitably brings up the tried-and-true "do you think civilians should be able to own nuclear weapons?" argument. Are they actually banned, though? I remember reading an article in Small Arms Review magazine about 40mm HE rounds, and how they are legal, although regulated as a DD, and a big time rigmarole to buy and use, you'd have a hard time convincing some producer to sell you one. That recently got me thinking about nuclear weapons. What if they aren't actually banned, but you could never convince a nuke manufacturer to sell you one? Is there any law, in any U.S. state that outright banned the ownership of a nuclear fission or fusion warhead?
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Maybe you can Form 4 one.
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IIRC the term "bear" is anything a person can carry. So suitcase nukes is yes. Tzar Bomba is no. But I also firmly believe 6 is the correct answer in the IQ thread, not 3.
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There are commercial nuclear weapons manufacturers?
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No. Who do you think manufactures nukes? It's civilian companies.
The manufacture and storage of them are extremely cost prohibitive. |
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Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow? |
I’m not aware of any actual laws prohibiting them. I also can’t think of any facility that manufactures them that isn’t government owned and therefore would not sell you one.
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I don't think you are allowed to own plutonium or highly enriched uranium. Though I don't know what the specific law would be.
You can own depleted uranium. But I think it's kinda spendy. Other natural forms of uranium are also legal for purchase all the way up to yellowcake. |
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It’s… probably not as bad as you think it is.
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cbrooks - "Glocks are Rosie O'Donnell"
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Originally Posted By Hesperus: I don't think you are allowed to own plutonium or highly enriched uranium. Though I don't know what the specific law would be. You can own depleted uranium. But I think it's kinda spendy. Other natural forms of uranium are also legal for purchase all the way up to yellowcake. View Quote I think the nuke stuff is controlled by the Department of Energy, but the weapons portions are a mix of BATFE and Energy Department laws/regs. The BATFE importation stuff I found categorized nuclear weapons as Category 16 for importation, but I gave up digging through the regs for CONUS stuff. |
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Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow? |
Originally Posted By Hesperus: I don't think you are allowed to own plutonium or highly enriched uranium. Though I don't know what the specific law would be. You can own depleted uranium. But I think it's kinda spendy. Other natural forms of uranium are also legal for purchase all the way up to yellowcake. View Quote At the risk of ending up on a watchlist I google “plutonium for sale” and found this. https://engineeredlabs.com/products/plutonium-element-cube-trinitite-sample Seems to be something that can be purchased freely. Not sure if there’s any laws governing how much one can posses though. |
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If I recall correctly, the possession of nuclear materials requires a license from the DoE. As a Destructive Device, the nuclear weapon would need to be registered on the NFRTR, and I believe that the possession of explosives also requires a license from the ATF.
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Originally Posted By OscarD: At the risk of ending up on a watchlist I google “plutonium for sale” and found this. https://engineeredlabs.com/products/plutonium-element-cube-trinitite-sample Seems to be something that can be purchased freely. Not sure if there’s any laws governing how much one can posses though. View Quote That's not plutonium. Trinitite is sand that got glassed in a nuclear bomb test. |
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Originally Posted By Kraquine: Originally Posted By 11boomboom: The manufacture and storage of them are extremely cost prohibitive. All that Cost prohibitive for now, but technology is always improving. Futurama NRA Arms Control As for the owning plutonium thing. Again it's not something I've researched too much. But there was a company called Luciteria which sold samples of nearly every element on the periodic table up to uranium. But uranium was where they stopped. I think their centimeter size cube of depleted uranium was really pricey. Though they did sell smaller chunks for as little as $9. |
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It’s… probably not as bad as you think it is.
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I'd love to see Elon Musk file a form 4 for a hydrogen bomb. He's enough of a troll and Bond villian to do it.
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"During the second 100 days, we will design, build and open a library dedicated to my first 100 days." -Barack Obama, May 9 2009
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Originally Posted By AR4U: I'd love to see Elon Musk file a form 4 for a hydrogen bomb. He's enough of a troll and Bond villian to do it. View Quote Starship would be big enough to have Tzar Bomba MIRVs if it was suitably equipped. House Atreides atomic warheads [DUNE PART TWO] Nothing says, "don't fuck with me." Quite like the ability to deliver 480 megatons of boom to eight separate targets. |
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It’s… probably not as bad as you think it is.
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At some point, once we become a space faring species, and are mining asteroids and moons and shit, civilians, or civilian companies are going to need to be able to buy, or produce nuclear explosive.
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Originally Posted By DaveJRSC: If I recall correctly, the possession of nuclear materials requires a license from the DoE. As a Destructive Device, the nuclear weapon would need to be registered on the NFRTR, and I believe that the possession of explosives also requires a license from the ATF. View Quote Based on this, I see several different licenses from the USNRC (United States Nuclear Regulation Commission) to possess varying types of material and references in my searches to nukes being classified as destructive devices under the NFA and weapons of mass destruction under some other laws. |
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Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow? |
Isn't SNM possesion verboten?
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Major issue is lawful transport and storage. I don't know how one would articulate that it isn't a clear and present danger to merely have a live nuke outside of nation state level security and property ownership.
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Originally Posted By HRoark87: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/451403/1000002461-3206649.jpg View Quote Thereitis.gif |
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Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow? |
Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow? |
If post 34 was used to start this thread I wonder what post 35 will be.
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I suppose someone could try to make one and see what kind of charges they end up with. I bet they'll come up with something.
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As for my people, children are their oppressors and women rule over them.
Deo Vindice |
Originally Posted By OscarD: At the risk of ending up on a watchlist I google “plutonium for sale” and found this. https://engineeredlabs.com/products/plutonium-element-cube-trinitite-sample Seems to be something that can be purchased freely. Not sure if there’s any laws governing how much one can posses though. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By OscarD: Originally Posted By Hesperus: I don't think you are allowed to own plutonium or highly enriched uranium. Though I don't know what the specific law would be. You can own depleted uranium. But I think it's kinda spendy. Other natural forms of uranium are also legal for purchase all the way up to yellowcake. At the risk of ending up on a watchlist I google “plutonium for sale” and found this. https://engineeredlabs.com/products/plutonium-element-cube-trinitite-sample Seems to be something that can be purchased freely. Not sure if there’s any laws governing how much one can posses though. Just call Hillary. |
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The devil's got my number.
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Originally Posted By PeepEater: Major issue is lawful transport and storage. I don't know how one would articulate that it isn't a clear and present danger to merely have a live nuke outside of nation state level security and property ownership. View Quote Anyone who has such a weapon without a nation state to hold responsible for it, would be viewed as an unacceptable hazard. |
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Originally Posted By PROFESSORCHAOS: I suppose someone could try to make one and see what kind of charges they end up with. I bet they'll come up with something. View Quote Maybe... Maybe not... The Story of the Radioactive Boy Scout |
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It’s… probably not as bad as you think it is.
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Assuming you gathered and refined enough of your own uranium ore, a gun-type device probably wouldn't violate any (many?) laws. It's just chemistry, geometry, and a cannon.
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Originally Posted By 11boomboom: No. Who do you think manufactures nukes? It's civilian companies. The manufacture and storage of them are extremely cost prohibitive. View Quote Sandia, Pantex, Lawrence Livermore and Los Alamos make warheads and are are US Gov entities. The delivery systems are contractor made. |
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Originally Posted By Element94: Sandia, Pantex, Lawrence Livermore and Los Alamos make warheads and are are US Gov entities. The delivery systems are contractor made. View Quote Those are ran by private companies. Take Los Alamos as an example: Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) A national laboratory managed by Triad National Security, LLC, a private company, and operated by the University of California, LANL is responsible for designing and developing nuclear warheads Same as the ammunition plants the Gov uses. |
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Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow? |
Wait. You guys don't have a nuke?
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vidi vici veni
I don't give a fuck. My name is Dave. m~:#er |
42 USC 2122: Prohibitions governing atomic weapons
(a) It shall be unlawful, except as provided in section 2121 of this title, for any person, inside or outside of the United States, to knowingly participate in the development of, manufacture, produce, transfer, acquire, receive, possess, import, export, or use, or possess and threaten to use, any atomic weapon. Nothing in this section shall be deemed to modify the provisions of section 2051(a) or 2131 of this title. |
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Yes:
The term ‘‘source material’’ means (1) uranium, thorium, or any other material which is determined by the Commission pursuant to the provisions of section 61 to be source material; or (2) ores containing one or more of the foregoing materials, in such concentration as the Commission may by regulation determine from time to time... The term ‘‘special nuclear material’’ means (1) plutonium, uranium enriched in the isotope 233 or in the isotope 235, and any other material which the Commission, pursuant to the provisions of section 51, determines to be special nuclear material, but does not include source material; or (2) any material artificially enriched by any of the foregoing, but does not include source material... Unless authorized by a general or specific license issued by the Commission, which the Commission is authorized to issue pursuant to section 53, no person may transfer or receive in interstate commerce, transfer, deliver, acquire, own, possess, receive possession of or title to, or import into or export from the United States any special nuclear materials... Unless authorized by a general or specific license issued by the Commission, which the Commission is hereby authorized to issue, no person may transfer or receive in interstate commerce, transfer, deliver, receive possession of or title to, or import into or export from the United States any source material after removal from its place of deposit in nature, except that licenses shall not be required for quantities of source material which, in the opinion of the Commission, are unimportant... ...special nuclear material shall be distributed only on terms, as may be established by rule of the Commission, such that no user will be permitted to construct an atomic weapon... It shall be unlawful, except as provided in section 91, for any person, inside or outside of the United States, to knowingly participate in the development of, manufacture, produce, transfer, acquire, receive, possess, import, export, or use, or possess and threaten to use, any atomic weapon. |
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cbrooks - "Glocks are Rosie O'Donnell"
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There's an answer to this and it's useful to know because it's the rebuttal to anti gun trolls who bring up tanks, artillery or nuclear weapons and then say why not assault rifles too.
In the 1939 Miller decision the Supreme Court described a militia as a light infantry primarily focused on civil defense. The court found 2A anticipates civilians being called up for the common defense, bearing the type of arms that would be in common use by such a militia. The court noticed that the Constitution elsewhere discussed "troops" that are answerable to the President and concluded that things like heavy weapons were reserved to troops (artillery, etc). Therefore 2A covers any kind of small arms that a militia might have, but not the crew served heavy weapons that are presumably reserved to "troops". |
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It's not adventure until something goes wrong.
Don't make me that guy. |
Originally Posted By FireMissionDivision: Nope: The term ‘‘source material’’ means (1) uranium, thorium, or any other material which is determined by the Commission pursuant to the provisions of section 61 to be source material; or (2) ores containing one or more of the foregoing materials, in such concentration as the Commission may by regulation determine from time to time... The term ‘‘special nuclear material’’ means (1) plutonium, uranium enriched in the isotope 233 or in the isotope 235, and any other material which the Commission, pursuant to the provisions of section 51, determines to be special nuclear material, but does not include source material; or (2) any material artificially enriched by any of the foregoing, but does not include source material... Unless authorized by a general or specific license issued by the Commission, which the Commission is authorized to issue pursuant to section 53, no person may transfer or receive in interstate commerce, transfer, deliver, acquire, own, possess, receive possession of or title to, or import into or export from the United States any special nuclear materials... Unless authorized by a general or specific license issued by the Commission, which the Commission is hereby authorized to issue, no person may transfer or receive in interstate commerce, transfer, deliver, receive possession of or title to, or import into or export from the United States any source material after removal from its place of deposit in nature, except that licenses shall not be required for quantities of source material which, in the opinion of the Commission, are unimportant... ...special nuclear material shall be distributed only on terms, as may be established by rule of the Commission, such that no user will be permitted to construct an atomic weapon... It shall be unlawful, except as provided in section 91, for any person, inside or outside of the United States, to knowingly participate in the development of, manufacture, produce, transfer, acquire, receive, possess, import, export, or use, or possess and threaten to use, any atomic weapon. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By FireMissionDivision: Nope: The term ‘‘source material’’ means (1) uranium, thorium, or any other material which is determined by the Commission pursuant to the provisions of section 61 to be source material; or (2) ores containing one or more of the foregoing materials, in such concentration as the Commission may by regulation determine from time to time... The term ‘‘special nuclear material’’ means (1) plutonium, uranium enriched in the isotope 233 or in the isotope 235, and any other material which the Commission, pursuant to the provisions of section 51, determines to be special nuclear material, but does not include source material; or (2) any material artificially enriched by any of the foregoing, but does not include source material... Unless authorized by a general or specific license issued by the Commission, which the Commission is authorized to issue pursuant to section 53, no person may transfer or receive in interstate commerce, transfer, deliver, acquire, own, possess, receive possession of or title to, or import into or export from the United States any special nuclear materials... Unless authorized by a general or specific license issued by the Commission, which the Commission is hereby authorized to issue, no person may transfer or receive in interstate commerce, transfer, deliver, receive possession of or title to, or import into or export from the United States any source material after removal from its place of deposit in nature, except that licenses shall not be required for quantities of source material which, in the opinion of the Commission, are unimportant... ...special nuclear material shall be distributed only on terms, as may be established by rule of the Commission, such that no user will be permitted to construct an atomic weapon... It shall be unlawful, except as provided in section 91, for any person, inside or outside of the United States, to knowingly participate in the development of, manufacture, produce, transfer, acquire, receive, possess, import, export, or use, or possess and threaten to use, any atomic weapon. All of those say UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY A GENERAL OR SPECIFIC LICENSE, so yes. ETA: Saw you changed it. Originally Posted By FireMissionDivision: Yes: The term ‘‘source material’’ means (1) uranium, thorium, or any other material which is determined by the Commission pursuant to the provisions of section 61 to be source material; or (2) ores containing one or more of the foregoing materials, in such concentration as the Commission may by regulation determine from time to time... The term ‘‘special nuclear material’’ means (1) plutonium, uranium enriched in the isotope 233 or in the isotope 235, and any other material which the Commission, pursuant to the provisions of section 51, determines to be special nuclear material, but does not include source material; or (2) any material artificially enriched by any of the foregoing, but does not include source material... Unless authorized by a general or specific license issued by the Commission, which the Commission is authorized to issue pursuant to section 53, no person may transfer or receive in interstate commerce, transfer, deliver, acquire, own, possess, receive possession of or title to, or import into or export from the United States any special nuclear materials... Unless authorized by a general or specific license issued by the Commission, which the Commission is hereby authorized to issue, no person may transfer or receive in interstate commerce, transfer, deliver, receive possession of or title to, or import into or export from the United States any source material after removal from its place of deposit in nature, except that licenses shall not be required for quantities of source material which, in the opinion of the Commission, are unimportant... ...special nuclear material shall be distributed only on terms, as may be established by rule of the Commission, such that no user will be permitted to construct an atomic weapon... It shall be unlawful, except as provided in section 91, for any person, inside or outside of the United States, to knowingly participate in the development of, manufacture, produce, transfer, acquire, receive, possess, import, export, or use, or possess and threaten to use, any atomic weapon. Originally Posted By KitBuilder: 42 USC 2122: Prohibitions governing atomic weapons (a) It shall be unlawful, except as provided in section 2121 of this title, for any person, inside or outside of the United States, to knowingly participate in the development of, manufacture, produce, transfer, acquire, receive, possess, import, export, or use, or possess and threaten to use, any atomic weapon. Nothing in this section shall be deemed to modify the provisions of section 2051(a) or 2131 of this title. The last statement says AND THREATEN TO USE so also still a yes. |
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Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow? |
Originally Posted By Hesperus: I don't think you are allowed to own plutonium or highly enriched uranium. Though I don't know what the specific law would be. You can own depleted uranium. But I think it's kinda spendy. Other natural forms of uranium are also legal for purchase all the way up to yellowcake. View Quote just roll your own, nuclear boyscout style. I mean fuck your house, your neighborhood etc. But go be awesome. |
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Op is glowing already...
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Originally Posted By 11boomboom: All of those say UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY A GENERAL OR SPECIFIC LICENSE, so yes. ETA: Saw you changed it. The last statement says AND THREATEN TO USE so also still a yes. View Quote Only the possession of nuclear material itself is subject to licensing, and it says the commission can't license anyone to build a weapon. It then specifically prohibits nuclear weapons except under the provisions of [the section which allows the US government to make/possess/etc. nuclear weapons]. Mere "possession" is listed earlier in the last line; "possess and use" is an additional prohibition. |
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They are made by private companies.
Probably pay a tax stamp, comply with NRC and various international treaties... |
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder: 42 USC 2122: Prohibitions governing atomic weapons (a) It shall be unlawful, except as provided in section 2121 of this title, for any person, inside or outside of the United States, to knowingly participate in the development of, manufacture, produce, transfer, acquire, receive, possess, import, export, or use, or possess and threaten to use, any atomic weapon. Nothing in this section shall be deemed to modify the provisions of section 2051(a) or 2131 of this title. View Quote It says "person". Doesn't say shit about a trust... |
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Improvise, Adapt, Overindulge.
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Originally Posted By OscarD: Hahaha I was going to look and see how much yellowcake uranium costs (I have zero desire to buy any, I’m just curious). Then the thought crossed my mind that I don’t want to end up on another list. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By OscarD: Originally Posted By Hesperus: I don't think you are allowed to own plutonium or highly enriched uranium. Though I don't know what the specific law would be. You can own depleted uranium. But I think it's kinda spendy. Other natural forms of uranium are also legal for purchase all the way up to yellowcake. At the risk of ending up on a watchlist I google “plutonium for sale” and found this. https://engineeredlabs.com/products/plutonium-element-cube-trinitite-sample Seems to be something that can be purchased freely. Not sure if there’s any laws governing how much one can posses though. Hahaha I was going to look and see how much yellowcake uranium costs (I have zero desire to buy any, I’m just curious). Then the thought crossed my mind that I don’t want to end up on another list. |
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Originally Posted By FireMissionDivision: Only the possession of nuclear material itself is subject to licensing, and it says the commission can't license anyone to build a weapon. It then specifically prohibits nuclear weapons except under the provisions of [the section which allows the US government to make/possess/etc. nuclear weapons]. Mere "possession" is listed earlier in the last line; "possess and use" is an additional prohibition. View Quote Do you have a number or link to that provision? I'd like to check it out. When I checked the USNRC site, it didn't specify the entities that could apply for the different licenses, just the definitions of what those licenses were. |
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Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow? |
Free at last, thank god I am free at last
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Originally Posted By just-mike: It says "person". Doesn't say shit about a trust... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By just-mike: Originally Posted By KitBuilder: 42 USC 2122: Prohibitions governing atomic weapons (a) It shall be unlawful, except as provided in section 2121 of this title, for any person, inside or outside of the United States, to knowingly participate in the development of, manufacture, produce, transfer, acquire, receive, possess, import, export, or use, or possess and threaten to use, any atomic weapon. Nothing in this section shall be deemed to modify the provisions of section 2051(a) or 2131 of this title. It says "person". Doesn't say shit about a trust... The entire statement is predicated on the AND THREATEN TO USE. That would mean that as long as you aren't threatening to use it, you could theoretically have/build it, unless there are other regulations outside of this one. |
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Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow? |
Originally Posted By Harlikwin: just roll your own, nuclear boyscout style. I mean fuck your house, your neighborhood etc. But go be awesome. View Quote Not the first time someone has tried to talk me into doing that and I suspect it won't be the last. But as entertaining as it might be. I don't think my body would react well to a serious spike in background ionizing radiation. As it is I think it's a small miracle that I survived several years of partial liver failure without getting some horrible chronic illness. Or who knows, maybe I did? |
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It’s… probably not as bad as you think it is.
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Lab equipment and 3d printer go brrrrr
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