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Originally Posted By Birddog1911: It's amazing how many people think this, and are wrong. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Birddog1911: Originally Posted By motoguzzi: Bad, bad, bad. If you have to pull a firearm, it is time to use it with no in-between. Now if the other person happens to take off that is even better. When you carry you ignore everything, up to the threat of deadly force. That means no chest thumping, flipping people off, or raging. It's amazing how many people think this, and are wrong. Yep. Think about it this way: Consider how often police draw their weapon compared to how often they fire their weapon. They draw their weapon whenever they perceive a threat. Do you wait until you can feel the crumple-zones of you car collapsing to put your seatbelt on? Nope. |
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Originally Posted By MemeWarfare: Yep. Think about it this way: Consider how often police draw their weapon compared to how often they fire their weapon. They draw their weapon whenever they perceive a threat. Do you wait until you can feel the crumple-zones of you car collapsing to put your seatbelt on? Nope. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By MemeWarfare: Originally Posted By Birddog1911: Originally Posted By motoguzzi: Bad, bad, bad. If you have to pull a firearm, it is time to use it with no in-between. Now if the other person happens to take off that is even better. When you carry you ignore everything, up to the threat of deadly force. That means no chest thumping, flipping people off, or raging. It's amazing how many people think this, and are wrong. Yep. Think about it this way: Consider how often police draw their weapon compared to how often they fire their weapon. They draw their weapon whenever they perceive a threat. Do you wait until you can feel the crumple-zones of you car collapsing to put your seatbelt on? Nope. Police and military who open carry have different ROE |
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Life member of CRPA. FPC contributor.
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More often than not, bad. It can cause unnecessary escalation. If you pull a gun on me, I'm assuming you intend to shoot me and will respond appropriately.
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Originally Posted By StevenH: Police and military who open carry have different ROE View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By StevenH: Originally Posted By MemeWarfare: Originally Posted By Birddog1911: Originally Posted By motoguzzi: Bad, bad, bad. If you have to pull a firearm, it is time to use it with no in-between. Now if the other person happens to take off that is even better. When you carry you ignore everything, up to the threat of deadly force. That means no chest thumping, flipping people off, or raging. It's amazing how many people think this, and are wrong. Yep. Think about it this way: Consider how often police draw their weapon compared to how often they fire their weapon. They draw their weapon whenever they perceive a threat. Do you wait until you can feel the crumple-zones of you car collapsing to put your seatbelt on? Nope. Police and military who open carry have different ROE And qualified immunity. Hell, if I had QI I might start blasting at the sound of an acorn dropping. |
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Gator's ******* better be using jimmies!
When I hold an AK in my hands, I get feelz I don't understand |
Originally Posted By tveddy: I have done that but never for posturing. Only because i was in a spot that i thought i would need it in a hurry View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By tveddy: Originally Posted By FaygoJoe: Originally Posted By tveddy: I am arguing against. If you pull it, shoot it. They may have a gun too. Pulling it it pretty provocative, I agree. What about just the lifting up of the shirt or whatever? Possibly even just reaching back an holding the grip? Is that enough or too much? I have done that but never for posturing. Only because i was in a spot that i thought i would need it in a hurry Same. I have had to place my hand on the grip of my concealed firearm twice. Both times do to an near-urgent need. It also served to dissuade the advances of the ne'er do wells with whom I would have had to engage. |
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If you need to shoot, don’t brandish. Shoot.
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Originally Posted By FaygoJoe: Some states don't have a definition of brandishing so people there may get away with it. View Quote Maryland does not have a brandishing law, but its plainly covered in assault charges. They consider pulling the gun as a threat of violence, which is assualt under the law. Now yes pulling it in self defense is not assualt. |
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"I am gonna laugh my ass off looking out the air vent of the box car watching some of you shot in the head in a ditch when you finally realize it's time to resist." stolen from RR_broccoli
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I had a crazy homeless guy trying to get into my car with me when I was picking up a pizza for lunch. He had dried blood on his forehead like he had already been bonked by something. He was pounding on my window telling me that we weren’t done talking yet while I was starting the car to pull away. He saw my G19 when I used that hand to put my vehicle into drive, and he decided he didn’t want to get in anymore. It was a good intermediate action. I don’t want to shoot a mentally ill homeless guy, but I was ready to if he broke glass. Also, the pull-through parking spot really saved my bacon. It was a forward pull out, so I didn’t have to take my eyes off the guy to back out. |
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When exposing a crime is treated as committing a crime, you are ruled by criminals.
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If you are talking about a relatively deserted area I think it can be better than waiting for contact. Crowded areas with video and witnesses, no.
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Live your life as you would wish to have lived, when you come to die. Confucius
When words lose their meaning, a people can move neither hand nor foot. Confucius |
Terrain dictates.
As a now civilian that has recently delt with this, the answer is, as stated, "depends". In my case, road rager tried to run us off the road, hit our car, tried to punch out my window, etc.... Police thanked me for not shooting him, claimed I was well within my rights to draw my sidearm. They did make clear that had I gotten out and went to his car and drew a weapon that would have been different. I this case, it de-escalated the the situation. It was however a long 10 mins waiting for the state and tribal police to arrive. Side note and now laughable moment from this whole thing was the 911 operator. After he stepped away and started back to his truck, I told my wife "If he gets out of his truck armed, go to the ditch and Ill take the gunfight across the hwy, away from you". The dispatcher then tells the responding officer, "the caller said he was going to "gunfight" across the hwy"..... he asked me what I said about a gunfight and chuckled when I told him. He said the dispatcher was all kinds of worked up over it. |
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"The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way."
-- Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862) |
In my experience both on & off duty, the people causing me problems suddenly became polite when I pulled my EDC out. Even more so when I pulled out my AR.
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Originally Posted By feudist: No. Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy are not sequential events that are heading towards legal justification. AOJ is a set of simultaneous states that the perpetrator must present in order to justify deadly force. He must have the Ability to kill or cripple you. Whether by his size, possession of a weapon or force of numbers he must be legitimately able, right now, to do grave bodily injury. A man who tells you, "I'm coming back with a gun and kill you" does not have the ability to do so right now. At the same time he must have the Opportunity to use deadly force. Meaning that a man standing in the street waving a knife while you're in house behind a locked door is not an imminent threat. He may become one soon, but not yet. The lawful use of deadly Force is an emergency event. The time you have to react is critical. There must be so little time that you're only reasonable action is deadly force. It is his actions that create Jeopardy. The mere fact of being approached by a stranger in a parking lot, or a man threatening you, or the sight of a gun holstered does not in themselves rise to the level of requiring deadly force. He must act in such a way that a reasonable person would believe that he is about to commit a violent crime right now. That is what places you in Jeopardy. The sum of his ability to kill or cripple plus his proximity(in time and space) enabling him to inflict it, plus his actions indicating that he is going to do it right now equals AOJ. As far as deterring an attack by some level of brandishing it can be tricky in some places. If a sketchy looking dude with his hoody pulled low and his right hand shoved in his pants is beelining towards you at the gas pumps while he repeatedly looks around...some level of brandishing is not only appropriate, but necessary. It needn't involve drawing and pointing your weapon. Merely saying "Stop!" forcefully and lifting your shirt to reveal the butt of your pistol will cause 99% of robbers, beggars and con artists to do a 180 and disappear. This is one of the serious tactical advantages of a pocket pistol. You can stand around in public with your hand on your gun, without causing any alarm-or sacrificing the total surprise of a counter ambush. But the main thing that trips people up in all Civil uses of force is resorting to the gun over personal affronts instead of deadly physical threats. Even liberal DAs rarely blink when a solid citizen is approached in the Walmart's parking lot by a career criminal with a rap sheet as long as a roll of Brawny paper towels who produces a weapon, announces a robbery and gets ventilated. It's when said solid citizen gets into an argument with another solid citizen over beans in chili and decides to punctuate his point by drawing a pistol that eyebrows start climbing towards hairlines. An escalating series of arguments and physical altercations between neighbors that leads to one shooting the unarmed other because he was "Trespassing" and the shooter chants "I Was In Fear For My LIfe(heh heh)" starts looking like the actions of an irresponsible man-child that thinks a gun lets him do what he wants. The bottom line is that the legal and moral defensive use of a pistol isn't resorting to it when you get angry enough, or to "put the fear of God" into some asshole that cut you off in traffic, or to shut some Karen up. You might get away with it, but when The Man comes around...you have fucked around, and now you are going to find out. View Quote You sure did write a lot of shit to be wrong or assumed I don’t know what I am talking about. If potential assailant presents the ability to cause serious bodily injury or death you should draw. If potential assailant takes the opportunity to cause serious bodily injury or death you should draw. If you are in jeopardy of serious bodily injury or death you should shoot. Ability, opportunity or jeopardy has been the standard of using deadly force for a long time. |
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Stand for something, or fall for anything.
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Mostly bad
I brandished a type 56 Ak once to some bonafide gangbangers and it worked like magic! Would not recommend though. Eta: Years later I "Brandished" an AR at a bonafide gang member trying to enter my apartment, and it ended in a prolonged back and forth, until I was forced to move to a new city! Sooo I should have shot the fucker |
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Part time instructor, full time student
AL, USA
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Originally Posted By Cape_hunter: Side note and now laughable moment from this whole thing was the 911 operator. After he stepped away and started back to his truck, I told my wife "If he gets out of his truck armed, go to the ditch and Ill take the gunfight across the hwy, away from you". The dispatcher then tells the responding officer, "the caller said he was going to "gunfight" across the hwy"..... he asked me what I said about a gunfight and chuckled when I told him. He said the dispatcher was all kinds of worked up over it. View Quote Classic. EVERYTHING you say to 911 is being recorded and is subject to misinterpretation by the dispatcher. That, in turn, is what gets sent to the responding officers. Hilarity, or disaster, can ensure. Nicely done! |
Spending myself in a worthy course.
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Part time instructor, full time student
AL, USA
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About 25% of my course work is "With a verbal command, draw to the ready!" This programmed response is for a threat that would equate to Cooper's Condition Orange. As noted about, the elements of ability, 0pportunity and jeopardy must be present. That said this country is full of prosecutors that will still charge you will all manner of crimes for daring to defend yourself. A large component of "Know where you are" is the legal environment.
I am also careful to instruct that with this action you are putting the threat into essentially a binary decision. Depart, or get shot. I make it plain that there is a segment of semi-humanity that will be totally unimpressed with your pistol, or think you lack the resolve to pull the trigger. |
Spending myself in a worthy course.
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So if you pull your gun, they stop doing whatever they where doing you are shooting them anyways?
I can think of million scenarios where I would have a weapon in my hand and then not use it. Heck, I have placed a gun in my hand ready to go in traffic due to certain things happening around me. Didn't point it at anyone or anything, but in hand ready to go. Situation changes gun gets put away. What, you guys waiting until they draw or shot at you to get your gun out? Its like the I got to wait until he throws the first punch. No dipshit that fight already started you just.dont know it yet. You are probably getting suckered punched or headbutted. Pulling a gun to scare someone when there is not a life and death threat is retarded and not what I mean. I mean having it ready because you see the potential this is going real bad. |
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Funny, I was talking about this recently with some buds of mine. While it's 'technically' illegal, it can be a great way to defuse a bad situation if used properly.
And I'll even bet it could work to your advantage in court if it ever got to that. "Your Honor, I tried to cool the deceased off by showing him I was armed, but he kept on coming at me and I was forced to shoot to defend myself against the threat to my life. No Sir, I didn't just pull it out and shoot without warning." |
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Don't grow up - it's a trap.
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Brandishing without enough cause to defend yourself with it can land you in jail here
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...another place, where the faces are so cold
I'd drive all night just to get back home |
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