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USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 4:58:04 PM EDT
It's literally the exact same gun used in CIWS/CRAM air defense cannons, just on wings instead of a truck.
So in an era where we need to be developing an array of air defense tools against advancing air threats, why should we be retiring this rather than repurposing it into an air defense platform? I bet an A-10 would have done great against the swarms of Shaheds that were being launched at Israel. Like I said, the gun is the exact same gun used for ground based CIWS/CRAM air defense systems, just in the air. |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 5:01:05 PM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By Brian01: It's literally the exact same gun used in CIWS/CRAM air defense cannons, just on wings instead of a truck. So in an era where we need to be developing an array of air defense tools against advancing air threats, why should we be retiring this rather than repurposing it into an air defense platform? I bet an A-10 would have done great against the swarms of Shaheds that were being launched at Israel. Like I said, the gun is the exact same gun used for ground based CIWS/CRAM air defense systems, just in the air. Not sexy enough for the politicians 
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GA, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 5:01:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KC-130 FLT ENG]
[#2]
Yes they can.
We did EVM's against A-10s in both CH-53Ds and KC130s. But as to the original post, I seriously doubt they would be effective against missiles and drones. |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 5:03:44 PM EDT
[#3]
Same gun as the goalkeeper CIWS
Of course they can. |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 5:03:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2A373]
[#4]
A-10s shot down 2 helicopters with their gun during Desert Storm.
They also can carry AIM-9s.  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 5:07:34 PM EDT
[#5]
The A-10's gun is not optimized for air-to-air shooting. Nor does it have a radar. It's physically capable of intercepting drones, but not optimized for it.
Fighters would be significantly better. |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 5:10:48 PM EDT
[#6]
Trucking that gun around is cheaper than flying it around
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Posted: 4/16/2024 5:19:41 PM EDT
[#7]
How much lead would an A10 have to pull to get that gun lined up?
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Posted: 4/16/2024 5:21:38 PM EDT
[#8]
I flew with a new first officer years ago that had flown both the A-10 and F-16.
The only story I remember him telling me was how different and so much more powerful the A-10's gun was compared to the 16. Sounds obvious I know but the difference was enough to impress the heck out of him. He did speak in general terms about training how to engage air to air targets with the gun. |
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GEO
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Posted: 4/16/2024 5:22:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Can it? Yes
Is it good at it? No it's setup to kill tanks not far moving planes. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 5:25:19 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GeorgiaBII: Can it? Yes Is it good at it? No it's setup to kill tanks not far moving planes. Far moving and fast. It would be like a '76 Pinto going against a '23 Corvette on a road course. |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 5:26:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MudEagle]
[#11]
Sigh.
Yes, the A-10 can dogfight and kill other aircraft. No, the gun is not canted up to bake-in a little bit of lead pursuit like the F-15 and F-18 guns are, but that doesn't really make a whole lot of difference. There's an A-A HUD mode with a computed gunsight and aiming reticles for the AIM-9. The Hog's biggest problem is that it doesn't have the energy or sustained turn rate of a "real" fighter so it has substantial limitations on how it can engage and fight. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 5:30:23 PM EDT
[#12]
not the same gun. A-10 is a 30mm, the C-RAM is a 20mm.
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USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 6:18:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By panzer: not the same gun. A-10 is a 30mm, the C-RAM is a 20mm. There are 20mm CRAMs, but there are also 30mm CRAMs. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 6:23:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capt-Planet: The A-10's gun is not optimized for air-to-air shooting. Nor does it have a radar. It's physically capable of intercepting drones, but not optimized for it. Fighters would be significantly better. So basically the most important problem is that the A-10's gun isn't as accurate as the gun on a fighter, right? Because a radar could be installed on a pylon. I almost have a personal conspiracy that the government has been keeping them around for the secret reason of turning into air defense platforms since they anticipated a future full of cheap drones like the Shahed. @Capt-Planet |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 6:28:08 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brian01: There are 20mm CRAMs, but there are also 30mm CRAMs. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brian01: Originally Posted By panzer: not the same gun. A-10 is a 30mm, the C-RAM is a 20mm. There are 20mm CRAMs, but there are also 30mm CRAMs. The aforementioned Goalkeeper. The Dutch and South Korean Navies get that toy and the US Navy doesn't. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 6:28:20 PM EDT
[#16]
People fantasize about shredding bomber formations with that gun all the time. Get it in War thunder and have fun. It's not gonna happen at scale irl.
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Posted: 4/16/2024 6:29:04 PM EDT
[#17]
Originally Posted By Brian01: It's literally the exact same gun used in CIWS/CRAM air defense cannons, just on wings instead of a truck. So in an era where we need to be developing an array of air defense tools against advancing air threats, why should we be retiring this rather than repurposing it into an air defense platform? I bet an A-10 would have done great against the swarms of Shaheds that were being launched at Israel. Like I said, the gun is the exact same gun used for ground based CIWS/CRAM air defense systems, just in the air. |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 6:34:59 PM EDT
[#18]
I imagine its speed would be an issue as well.
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Posted: 4/16/2024 6:35:56 PM EDT
[#19]
The difference is the CWIS is computer controlled using an agile mount and a pair of radars, one tracking the target, the other tracking the rounds.
The A-10 pilot can line up on a 2D staffing run which requires a bunch of commitment. Additionally no air search radar. Can a Porsche 911 tow a 5000 pound boat? |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 6:38:25 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: Can a Porsche 911 tow a 5000 pound boat? Depending on the context, certainly. Towing a boat going through a canal lock? I'm certain it could do that. Tow it across the Rockies? Um... Don't know and don't want to find out. 
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USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 6:45:26 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: The difference is the CWIS is computer controlled using an agile mount and a pair of radars, one tracking the target, the other tracking the rounds. The A-10 pilot can line up on a 2D staffing run which requires a bunch of commitment. Additionally no air search radar. Can a Porsche 911 tow a 5000 pound boat? So the A-10 just needs the ability to let the computer take control, and a radar? At the very least the necessary radar could be connected as a module to a pylon. The dilemmas that everyone is bringing up are valid, but not insurmountable. @Paul |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 6:46:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Paul]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brian01: So the A-10 just needs the ability to let the computer take control, and a radar? At the very least the necessary radar could be connected as a module to a pylon. The dilemmas that everyone is bringing up are valid, but not insurmountable. @Paul The agility would be the problem. Swinging a gun mount is way easier/faster than swinging an aircraft on the end of the gun. (sorry Apple thought it would be better with swimming aircraft) |
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USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 6:47:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Clockwork138]
[#23]
Originally Posted By SquatchAv8: I flew with a new first officer years ago that had flown both the A-10 and F-16. The only story I remember him telling me was how different and so much more powerful the A-10's gun was compared to the 16. Sounds obvious I know but the difference was enough to impress the heck out of him. He did speak in general terms about training how to engage air to air targets with the gun. Aside from the 30mm vs. 20mm aspect, I wonder if location contributes to the perception of increased power - The A-10's cannon muzzles being directly in front of the pilot whereas the F-16's is behind and slightly below the pilot. IIRC, there's also the additional sensory stimuli of the gas/odor of burnt propellant making its way into the cockpit of the A-10. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 6:50:39 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Clockwork138: Aside from the 30mm vs. 20mm aspect, I wonder if location contributes to the perception of increased power - The A-10's cannon muzzles being directly in front of the pilot whereas the F-16's is behind and slightly below the pilot. IIRC, there's also the additional sensory stimuli of the gas/odor of burnt propellant making its way into the cockpit of the A-10. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Clockwork138: Originally Posted By SquatchAv8: I flew with a new first officer years ago that had flown both the A-10 and F-16. The only story I remember him telling me was how different and so much more powerful the A-10's gun was compared to the 16. Sounds obvious I know but the difference was enough to impress the heck out of him. He did speak in general terms about training how to engage air to air targets with the gun. Aside from the 30mm vs. 20mm aspect, I wonder if location contributes to the perception of increased power - The A-10's cannon muzzles being directly in front of the pilot whereas the F-16's is behind and slightly below the pilot. IIRC, there's also the additional sensory stimuli of the gas/odor of burnt propellant making its way into the cockpit of the A-10. There aren't a lot of folks that have flown the A-10 and F-18 who could answer that. |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 6:52:42 PM EDT
[#25]
I can shoot the same gun as Jerry, does not make me Jerry.
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AK, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 8:06:16 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2A373: A-10s shot down 2 helicopters with their gun during Desert Storm. They also can carry AIM-9s. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/54089/231025-F-F3301-1744_jpg-3189717.JPG There are better low performance aircraft with sidewinders: 
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Posted: 4/16/2024 9:04:26 PM EDT
[#27]
Marine 1 is a helicopter
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Posted: 4/16/2024 9:25:42 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Gurthy: Marine 1 is a helicopter |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 9:32:51 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KC-130 FLT ENG: Yes they can. We did EVM's against A-10s in both CH-53Ds and KC130s. But as to the original post, I seriously doubt they would be effective against missiles and drones. Do those shells use tracers for attacking ground targets? Shooting air to air would be a lot harder if you couldn't see where your projectiles were going in relation to the target. |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 9:39:38 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brian01: So basically the most important problem is that the A-10's gun isn't as accurate as the gun on a fighter, right? Because a radar could be installed on a pylon. I almost have a personal conspiracy that the government has been keeping them around for the secret reason of turning into air defense platforms since they anticipated a future full of cheap drones like the Shahed. @Capt-Planet Why do you think 30mm would be better for drones than 20mm/25mm? Better yet, some kind of cheap, multiple launch AA missile. |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 9:40:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: trio]
[#31]
Also, why do you need 30mm to knock down a Shahed? You can knock one down with a .50 cal easily, 20mm is well up to the task. A faster fighter with an actual intercept radar, the energy, the turn capability, is much more up to the task than an A-10. Those drones, and even ballistic and cruise missiles, are fragile things. 20mm will suffice
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Posted: 4/16/2024 9:43:48 PM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 4/16/2024 9:44:31 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trio: Also, why do you need 30mm to knock down a Shahed? You can knock one down with a .50 cal easily, 20mm is well up to the task. A faster fighter with an actual intercept radar, the energy, the turn capability, is much more up to the task than an A-10. Those drones, and even ballistic and cruise missiles, are fragile things. 20mm will suffice With higher rate of fire and deeper magazine for the same weight. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 9:44:31 PM EDT
[#34]
Can, yes. But against anything at all designed for air combat in the past few decades, you best hope you hit them hard on the first pass. Good chance you won't get a second.
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USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 9:53:08 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trio: Also, why do you need 30mm to knock down a Shahed? You can knock one down with a .50 cal easily, 20mm is well up to the task. A faster fighter with an actual intercept radar, the energy, the turn capability, is much more up to the task than an A-10. Those drones, and even ballistic and cruise missiles, are fragile things. 20mm will suffice I guess 20mm would be better. But one thing they could do to make the A-10 better for air targets is integrate airbursting ammo. |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 10:05:25 PM EDT
[#36]
Bad idea. Some of those bullets can travel a mile.
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Posted: 4/16/2024 10:05:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 86Tiger]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DoubleARon: I have brass for both guns in my collector. They are not the same. Reminds me of a story: Nov 2004 I'm a contractor in Baghdad. I'm in Green Zone and there is piles of spent brass every where. It was amazing at first how much was on the ground and rooftops of buildings but then it just became, Meh. First R&R out of Iraq the company security is emphatic no brass of any sort, type or style, spent or loaded can leave country. This is repeated over and over in several exit briefings. Boxes set up all over camp to deposit what ever you have no questions asked. Even on the bus just before we get off at BIAP there is a security guy reminding nothing gets on the plane, leave it with him or in your seat and nothing will ever be said. I wait in the line of several hundred to get thru security, and sure enough when I get to front there is that guy. He was on way out for R&R and had a back pack full of spent brass in every size, shape you could imagine. There were 2 guys pulling it out and inventorying fast as they could at the xray conveyor table. I over heard as I was passing by the security guy say to him "This is so much I am going to have to report it. Don't be surprised if they tell you not to come back." |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 10:50:03 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brian01: I guess 20mm would be better. But one thing they could do to make the A-10 better for air targets is integrate airbursting ammo. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brian01: Originally Posted By trio: Also, why do you need 30mm to knock down a Shahed? You can knock one down with a .50 cal easily, 20mm is well up to the task. A faster fighter with an actual intercept radar, the energy, the turn capability, is much more up to the task than an A-10. Those drones, and even ballistic and cruise missiles, are fragile things. 20mm will suffice I guess 20mm would be better. But one thing they could do to make the A-10 better for air targets is integrate airbursting ammo. Then you have to range it, fuze it, all that. Lots more complicated. Lots more to break. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 10:55:10 PM EDT
[#39]
You want a cheap way to engage drones? Put some guided rockets on a T-7 and call it a day.
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Posted: 4/16/2024 10:59:37 PM EDT
[#40]
A-10 does not have a radar and lead computing gunsight for air-to-air. It would be extremely difficult to hit a swift aerial target with the current air-to-ground sight.
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Posted: 4/16/2024 11:03:38 PM EDT
[#41]
I’m sure I read in here about an A10 getting an air to air kill on a helicopter in a gulf war
I may have dreamed that though |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 11:13:46 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brian01: So the A-10 just needs the ability to let the computer take control, and a radar? At the very least the necessary radar could be connected as a module to a pylon. The dilemmas that everyone is bringing up are valid, but not insurmountable. @Paul Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brian01: Originally Posted By Paul: The difference is the CWIS is computer controlled using an agile mount and a pair of radars, one tracking the target, the other tracking the rounds. The A-10 pilot can line up on a 2D staffing run which requires a bunch of commitment. Additionally no air search radar. Can a Porsche 911 tow a 5000 pound boat? So the A-10 just needs the ability to let the computer take control, and a radar? At the very least the necessary radar could be connected as a module to a pylon. The dilemmas that everyone is bringing up are valid, but not insurmountable. @Paul What do you mean by "the A-10 just needs the ability to let the computer take control"? If you mean take control of the aircraft movement, then you need to do some research on an A-10's flight controls. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 11:14:35 PM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 4/16/2024 11:15:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JackRebney]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DnPRK: A-10 does not have a radar and lead computing gunsight for air-to-air. It would be extremely difficult to hit a swift aerial target with the current air-to-ground sight. It does have an old school A2A funnel sight on the HUD. But yes it would still be hard. ETA: beat. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 11:17:30 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brian01: I almost have a personal conspiracy that the government has been keeping them around for the secret reason of turning into air defense platforms since they anticipated a future full of cheap drones like the Shahed. @Capt-Planet The government is keeping them around because important politicians want the A-10 drawing tax dollars to plants in their states & districts. God only knows how much procurement money is spent on shit the DOD doesn't want and doesn't need, because politicians need to keep constituents employed on the taxpayer dime. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 11:18:21 PM EDT
[#46]
For those Shaheed drones you'd be better off with a P-38. Four .50cals and a 20mm cannon.
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Posted: 4/16/2024 11:21:27 PM EDT
[#47]
An A-10 with today’s technology would be the shotgun in the sky. An absolute drone killer.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 11:45:13 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mcantu: https://wiki.hoggitworld.com/images/2/23/HUD_AIR_ANNOTATED.png |
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Posted: 4/16/2024 11:46:25 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By m200maker: An A-10 with today’s technology would be |
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USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 11:50:11 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brian01: So basically the most important problem is that the A-10's gun isn't as accurate as the gun on a fighter, right? Because a radar could be installed on a pylon. I almost have a personal conspiracy that the government has been keeping them around for the secret reason of turning into air defense platforms since they anticipated a future full of cheap drones like the Shahed. @Capt-Planet Bring back the Mustang! |
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