User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
NH, USA
|
Posted: 4/25/2024 10:05:50 PM EDT
I know there has been other posts on the topic several times but can anyone tell why no where/no one sells there stuff like smokes or cs grenades. From my understanding nothing about them is inherently illegal, the m201a1 fuzes they all use do not have over a 1/4oz of charge in them and theres no law against fuzes in general. And both smoke and CS compounds are legal (exception being a few states) so whats going on. I know the ATF told those companies years back to stop selling directly to civilians but how can no one thats allow to buy direct be reselling them?? I’ve searched everywhere for a place that sells them and nothing. I know about Azao but not the same.
Feel free to correct me if im wrong as it wouldn’t be the first time but open to discussion. P.s. any update on those companies supposedly making civilian variants of products. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/25/2024 10:06:30 PM EDT
[#1]
Welcome firearms enthusiast.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/25/2024 10:39:03 PM EDT
[#2]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/25/2024 11:07:08 PM EDT
[#3]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/25/2024 11:16:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: justsayin]
[#4]
.........
|
|
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 4/25/2024 11:26:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: walkinginadangerzone]
[#5]
Originally Posted By Carcar24: I know there has been other posts on the topic several times but can anyone tell why no where/no one sells there stuff like smokes or cs grenades. From my understanding nothing about them is inherently illegal, the m201a1 fuzes they all use do not have over a 1/4oz of charge in them and theres no law against fuzes in general. And both smoke and CS compounds are legal (exception being a few states) so whats going on. I know the ATF told those companies years back to stop selling directly to civilians but how can no one thats allow to buy direct be reselling them?? I’ve searched everywhere for a place that sells them and nothing. I know about Azao but not the same. Feel free to correct me if im wrong as it wouldn’t be the first time but open to discussion. P.s. any update on those companies supposedly making civilian variants of products. The only thing is, the fuzes are considered explosive material I believe. That said, taginn and IWA make civi smoke and flash bang grenades. IWA is alleged to come out with a thermite grenade. |
|
|
AR, USA
|
Posted: 4/25/2024 11:52:14 PM EDT
[#6]
The fuze is what make them a controlled item. Due to the fuze being able to screw into a grenade and if rebuilt could be used as such. I worked for ALS and we did a reverse thread fuze to attempt to gain “Civi” sales and we were shut down by ATF. Still did the reverse fuze and they may still to this day.
We had an impact triggered blank device that we called the trmr or tremor and it was a reloaded bang, used our cut down 12 ga flash bang rounds. |
|
|
NH, USA
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 8:52:49 AM EDT
[#7]
Thanks for the reply and finally some real info into what happened not just rumors and speculation. Can’t see the logic in the ATFs decision but that doesn’t surprise me seems almost as they used the fuze just as an excuse knowing that smoke fuzes already didn’t fit frag hulls and didn’t have a true reliable delay. Especially if they still shut the idea down even after a reverse thread was introduced.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 8:55:12 AM EDT
[#8]
Such an interesting question with which to delurk.
And the real answer is that DefTec doesn't want you to have LL. It's not about anybody else, just you, carcar24, specifically, and nobody else but you. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 9:40:33 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: The only thing is, the fuzes are considered explosive material I believe. That said, taginn and IWA make civi smoke and flash bang grenades. IWA is alleged to come out with a thermite grenade. |
|
|
|
NH, USA
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 11:06:36 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By centrarchidae: Such an interesting question with which to delurk. And the real answer is that DefTec doesn't want you to have LL. It's not about anybody else, just you, carcar24, specifically, and nobody else but you. I can hear them. In my walls and in the trees 
|
|
|
NH, USA
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 11:09:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Carcar24]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: The only thing is, the fuzes are considered explosive material I believe. That said, taginn and IWA make civi smoke and flash bang grenades. IWA is alleged to come out with a thermite grenade. The thing that pisses me off tho is that the fuzes are not explosive materials. And I’m not even talking about how the atf cant write laws or all regulations are infringements. I mean the fuze has a spec of charge well under the ATFs posted limit of 1/4oz. M228 Fuzes are DDs because of the detonator and the atf specifically came out and said that but for smoke grenades and their fuzes it literally is just a back door thing where the ATF whispered to these companies to stop selling to civilians or else. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 11:18:43 AM EDT
[#12]
What purpose would you use it? What is your experience with these? I am curious why you want to deploy some and where you would. I will help you out- Inside a structure is a NIGHTMARE! That powder will hang out forever and is a pain to clean up.
Maybe reach out to DefTech and let them know there is a HUGE market for non-LE and non-gov to buy and use these. |
|
|
|
NH, USA
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 1:45:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By UV18: What purpose would you use it? What is your experience with these? I am curious why you want to deploy some and where you would. I will help you out- Inside a structure is a NIGHTMARE! That powder will hang out forever and is a pain to clean up. Maybe reach out to DefTech and let them know there is a HUGE market for non-LE and non-gov to buy and use these. Experience with both smokes and CS from both companies as they use to be on the civilian market. Both are just cool to have and smokes are fun at the range. Realistically if they were available easily there wouldnt be a need to stock up its the fact you can’t get them that makes me want to have a few just to store as they last a long time in proper conditions. I’ve reached out too and honestly it seems like they want to sell to us but more that they can’t without risk of losing contracts. Also they even went as far to break down how they as a big manufacturer have insurance that wont cover them for civilian sales anymore but use to if they added a fee to each one they sold to civilians. |
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 2:48:17 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Carcar24: Thanks for the reply and finally some real info into what happened not just rumors and speculation. Can’t see the logic in the ATFs decision but that doesn’t surprise me seems almost as they used the fuze just as an excuse knowing that smoke fuzes already didn’t fit frag hulls and didn’t have a true reliable delay. Especially if they still shut the idea down even after a reverse thread was introduced. Definitely don't try to screw a M201 fuze head into a Mark 2 and M26 grenade hull.   But in all seriousness, ATF is big gay. I'd like some semi affordable legit M18 smokes too. But so far the airsoft smokes and flash bangs from the two mentioned companies seem to have substituted the real thing. Another company called Patriot gear and smoke was making M18 clones and selling directly to civis, but they didn't want to ship because of hazmat. So they only sold them in a handful of gun stores around the east coast where they could drive and deliver them lol. Pretty sure they went out of business already, if they didn't, I'd be surprised. |
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 2:49:38 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: They teased a non-DD mortar on their gram yesterday Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Originally Posted By walkinginadangerzone: The only thing is, the fuzes are considered explosive material I believe. That said, taginn and IWA make civi smoke and flash bang grenades. IWA is alleged to come out with a thermite grenade. I saw that, not sure if they can even get that one imported. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 2:50:29 PM EDT
[#16]
You gotta ease into it.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 2:59:04 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GREENMACHINE1: The fuze is what make them a controlled item. Due to the fuze being able to screw into a grenade and if rebuilt could be used as such. I worked for ALS and we did a reverse thread fuze to attempt to gain “Civi” sales and we were shut down by ATF. Still did the reverse fuze and they may still to this day. We had an impact triggered blank device that we called the trmr or tremor and it was a reloaded bang, used our cut down 12 ga flash bang rounds. @GREENMACHINE1 You're the first person I've run across with first hand knowledge on the smoke grenade thing. I've done a bit of reading online and only ever saw speculation about what happened with smoke grenades. Do you recall what statute(s) the ATF was using against ALS and the fuzes, or have any more info on what happened? I've been toying with a smoke grenade fuze design with the idea of a product for civilian sales and would like more info on how the ATF was attacking these. |
|
|
|
WI, USA
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 2:59:57 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Carcar24: M228 Fuzes are DDs because of the detonator and the atf specifically came out and said that Citation/Link? I've heard them referred to as "explosive material" but not a DD in and of themselves. |
|
|
NH, USA
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 3:12:13 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By NAM: Citation/Link? I've heard them referred to as "explosive material" but not a DD in and of themselves. Good call out I phrased it completely wrong. They are explosive material (just need a magazine to store.) I’m no better at adding to confusion as the feds themselves |
|
|
NH, USA
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 3:15:26 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mechanical: @GREENMACHINE1 You're the first person I've run across with first hand knowledge on the smoke grenade thing. I've done a bit of reading online and only ever saw speculation about what happened with smoke grenades. Do you recall what statute(s) the ATF was using against ALS and the fuzes, or have any more info on what happened? I've been toying with a smoke grenade fuze design with the idea of a product for civilian sales and would like more info on how the ATF was attacking these. Thats the thing there is nothing to cite because theres nothing on paper technically wrong with them. The ATF bullied those companies in short saying “stop or else we will make it a crime to sell them.” And because of that confusion no where wants to sell these things but thats why buying ones for sale on GB or whatever site still happen legally just incredibly rare. Funny enough they did come out and specifically ban a lot of the Tagin/IWA stuff even going as far as to specify exact models. But as far as the og smokes, fuzes, CS go they never made anything official because the companies just listened to them and stopped. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 3:33:56 PM EDT
[#21]
what a curious discussion...
|
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 3:44:33 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By high_order1: what a curious discussion... Come on, with a user name like yours, we know you can show us some cool stuff. 
|
|
|
AR, USA
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 3:49:50 PM EDT
[#23]
I don’t recall the ref, CFR but I will try and locate it. I believe ultimately it was the composition of the “explosive” in the fuze that led to no-go. I know there was a later ruling where some products were pulled that had been exempted, again I’ll see if I can find that also.
There was an entire line of product we did that used a screw in primer that was “fired” by a striker built to look and act like a spoon and lever. I think it was the TLS line? They were a reloadable bang that we could screw bodies together to create longer sticks, each with its own charge of flash that was color coated for time delay. We had some amazing products on the hand-delivered side of the house. The twist arm flash bangs are some of the devices that we ever built and what was really sweet about him is that could literally throw it where it would hit a wall or roof and go off versus a traditional hast to hit the ground and then detonate. |
|
|
AR, USA
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 3:51:32 PM EDT
[#24]
Exactly what this poster said. There was more bullying than anything and the fact that we wanted to have the TLS products available and we had a reloadable multi bang that we were developing I think is one reason our leadership didn’t push it further.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2024 4:26:13 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GREENMACHINE1: I don’t recall the ref, CFR but I will try and locate it. I believe ultimately it was the composition of the “explosive” in the fuze that led to no-go. I know there was a later ruling where some products were pulled that had been exempted, again I’ll see if I can find that also. Thanks, I appreciate the info (especially if you have a chance to look that stuff up). I don't know if my idea will work yet, but this info helps me if I'm able to make it work and have the opportunity to try producing it. |
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
Attached File
