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Posted: 3/28/2024 4:15:28 PM EDT
There are a lot of golf myths out there. Strokes gained data has debunked a lot of myths about the game. 3D technology has debunked a lot of myths about the swing.
Let’s start with the big one: Drive for show and putt for dough. Aaron Baddeley is currently the best putter on the PGA tour. He hasn’t won a tour event since the 2016 Barbasol Championship. The other 4 have never won a tour event. When I looked at this late last season, none of the top 5 had ever won a PGA tour event.  Attached FileNow let’s look at strokes gained tee-to-green. Here we have the #1 player in the world with 2 wins this year, a Masters champion with 1 win this year, an Olympic gold medalist with some close calls this year, etc.  Attached FileScottie also leads the current stats in total driving. If he putts decent he wins. Ball striking separates skill levels. Chipping and putting separates equal ball strikers on a given day. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 5:15:57 PM EDT
[#1]
I'll add that, as bad as I've putted sometimes, other than the infamous "putt into the ocean" in Hawaii, I've never taken penalty strokes on the green.
I've taken hundreds off the tee. Putting matters a lot, but getting off the tee in play without penalties matters more. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 5:34:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sean124]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Logcutter: I'll add that, as bad as I've putted sometimes, other than the infamous "putt into the ocean" in Hawaii, I've never taken penalty strokes on the green. I've taken hundreds off the tee. Putting matters a lot, but getting off the tee in play without penalties matters more. Yep. Chipping and putting saves bad rounds or helps you go low. The average is determined mostly by how well you hit the ball. I’ve putted into a bunker before, but never into the ocean 
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Posted: 3/28/2024 5:57:53 PM EDT
[#3]
Laying up to your favorite yardage is also a myth most of the time. On average, the closer you are to the green, the closer you end up to the hole. I’ve seen these stats for various handicaps and they hold up. The proximity just goes up with handicap.
You should generally get as close to the green as possible without bringing hazards into play.  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 6:09:53 PM EDT
[#4]
The more beers I drink, the better I play.
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Posted: 3/28/2024 6:35:27 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 3/28/2024 6:36:17 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vatopa: The more beers I drink, the better I play. Swing lube!!!! |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 6:40:43 PM EDT
[#7]
I agree with your assessment when it comes to tour players. Where I question the SG numbers is when you look at them in a vacuum.
I've heard of 2 of those guys on the putting leaderboard. Everyone knows the best tee to green which proves your point. Probably the most telling stat IMO is birdies per round. Eagles too. I remember reading golf weekly when Rahm was coming out of college. I remember thinking, "spainard with the most eagles in college, he's gonna be a problem" I just wonder how the total driving and green in regulation proximity correlate to SG putting. I don't doubt the assessment for closer to the green the better, but how many times have you bombed one up within 40 yards of the green in a scramble and had 3 players play in front of you get it nowhere near the hole? |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 6:42:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Tanren37]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By vatopa: The more beers I drink, the better I play. Where's the first tee and what's the course record!? I thought this was interesting, to your "putt for dough" point.  Attached FileAccording to ESPN his best finish was T7 during that period and he missed the cut 4 times. |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 7:13:17 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Arfless: I agree with your assessment when it comes to tour players. Where I question the SG numbers is when you look at them in a vacuum. I've heard of 2 of those guys on the putting leaderboard. Everyone knows the best tee to green which proves your point. Probably the most telling stat IMO is birdies per round. Eagles too. I remember reading golf weekly when Rahm was coming out of college. I remember thinking, "spainard with the most eagles in college, he's gonna be a problem" I just wonder how the total driving and green in regulation proximity correlate to SG putting. I don't doubt the assessment for closer to the green the better, but how many times have you bombed one up within 40 yards of the green in a scramble and had 3 players play in front of you get it nowhere near the hole? My understanding is SG putting only looks at how you do from a certain proximity for each putt compared to your peers. It’s a far better assessment than putts per round or putts per GIR. On average, those same 3 players would be even less near the hole from 90 yards
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Posted: 3/28/2024 7:26:16 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sean124: My understanding is SG putting only looks at how you do from a certain proximity for each putt compared to your peers. It’s a far better assessment than putts per round or putts per GIR. On average, those same 3 players would be even less near the hole from 90 yards Guess that's why bomb and gouge has been the name of the game since '97. I saw Tiger in an AJGA event at my dad's home course when he was 17 (I was 18). I figured I couldn't compete after that. Turns out not many could! |
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Posted: 3/28/2024 11:04:11 PM EDT
[#11]
Putting is critical but having said that, if you can't put the ball in the fairway on a course with significant rough, you have little chance at scoring well unless you are chipping it close and one-putting a lot of greens that day. A player can hit every green in regulation and shoot even par but if you only hit 4-6 greens, par or under is pretty tough to accomplish.
FWIW, I found this on the percentage of putts made from various distances on the tour from 5 years ago, thought it was interesting. 3 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 99.4% 4 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 91.43% 5 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 80.72% 6 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 70.21 7 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 60.6% 8 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 52.86% 9 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 46.38 10 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 41.25% 11-15 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 30.1% 15-20 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 18.3% 20-25 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 12.47% 25+ FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 5.45% |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 8:43:42 AM EDT
[#12]
A few years ago in my golf league I was having huge issues of the tee.
The second week of that season I started playing 4w off the tee instead of driver, and continued doing so all year. It was the lowest league handicap I've ever had, and most points I've ever gotten. Now, the reality is driver SHOULD be one of the easiest clubs to hit, and I've (mostly) gotten it squared away, but getting off the tee into play without penalties is huge for avoiding big numbers. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 8:45:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Logcutter]
[#13]
Edit: two putt
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Posted: 3/29/2024 9:42:16 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mike_48: Putting is critical but having said that, if you can't put the ball in the fairway on a course with significant rough, you have little chance at scoring well unless you are chipping it close and one-putting a lot of greens that day. A player can hit every green in regulation and shoot even par but if you only hit 4-6 greens, par or under is pretty tough to accomplish. FWIW, I found this on the percentage of putts made from various distances on the tour from 5 years ago, thought it was interesting. 3 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 99.4% 4 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 91.43% 5 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 80.72% 6 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 70.21 7 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 60.6% 8 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 52.86% 9 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 46.38 10 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 41.25% 11-15 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 30.1% 15-20 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 18.3% 20-25 FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 12.47% 25+ FEET - PGA Tour percentage: 5.45% The two numbers that stick in my head are 8 and 32. At 8 feet, a tour player only makes half of their putts. At 32 feet, they’re more likely to 3-putt than make the putt. The TV gives a false perception that these guys make everything because it’s basically a highlight reel of who’s hot that day. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 11:18:04 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sean124: The two numbers that stick in my head are 8 and 32. At 8 feet, a tour player only makes half of their putts. At 32 feet, they’re more likely to 3-putt than make the putt. The TV gives a false perception that these guys make everything because it’s basically a highlight reel of who’s hot that day. And the highest accuracy off the tee is in the low 70% range, is that right? The best of the best are only hitting 12 fairways a round. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 11:53:41 AM EDT
[#16]
You can hold a 1 iron straight up in the middle of a lightning storm, standing on the clubhouse roof.
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Posted: 3/29/2024 12:58:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trails-end: You can hold a 1 iron straight up in the middle of a lightning storm, standing on the clubhouse roof. Once!!! |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 1:33:36 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trails-end: You can hold a 1 iron straight up in the middle of a lightning storm, standing on the clubhouse roof. Even God can’t hit a 1 iron. Only Jack Nicklaus. |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 2:14:17 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tanren37: And the highest accuracy off the tee is in the low 70% range, is that right? The best of the best are only hitting 12 fairways a round. Yes and it’s not the long hitters.  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/29/2024 4:05:05 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sean124: Even God can’t hit a 1 iron. Only Jack Nicklaus. My dad's childhood buddy was a senior architect for Nicklaus designs for many years. We went to Jack's final walk thru for the TPC Michigan. Jack was mic'ed up and explained his course design which was interesting. He played it while we walked along. Probably the most interesting thing was him warming up on the range. He hit some 8 irons, then turned to us and said, "anyone think I can get it over that 100' oak tree?" He pulled a 2 iron out and hit it like a 9 iron right over that sonambitch. Tour pros are a different breed. |
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Posted: 3/30/2024 3:11:33 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Arfless: Tour pros are a different breed. I played Tucson National last year and there was a lower level nobody from the Champions Tour in the group in front of us. I don’t even remember his name. The level of control he had over the ball was insane. |
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Posted: 3/30/2024 3:58:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Mike_48]
[#22]
I played in HS & college and was just an average player that managed to shoot a good round once in a while. During that time I got to play with 3 pros from the PGA tour, one being a NCAA champion, top 30 money winner, Payne Stewart award winner, Ryder Cup and nine time tour winner.
It kind of crushed any aspirations I had of pursuing golf as a player. I could not believe how anyone could be that good. I swear, the guy averaged 3 thirty footers and a chip-in or two every round and made it look effortless. It is a different world. |
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Posted: 3/30/2024 6:36:42 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mike_48: I played in HS & college and was just an average player that managed to shoot a good round once in a while. During that time I got to play with 3 pros from the PGA tour, one being a NCAA champion, top 30 money winner, Payne Stewart award winner, Ryder Cup and nine time tour winner. It kind of crushed any aspirations I had of pursuing golf as a player. I could not believe how anyone could be that good. I swear, the guy averaged 3 thirty footers and a chip-in or two every round and made it look effortless. It is a different world. People have no comprehension of that level of play. I tell someone I shot a 68 and they ask if I can play the tour.
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Posted: 3/30/2024 7:26:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mike_48: During that time I got to play with 3 pros from the PGA tour, one being a NCAA champion, top 30 money winner, Payne Stewart award winner, Ryder Cup and nine time tour winner. It kind of crushed any aspirations I had of pursuing golf as a player. I could not believe how anyone could be that good. I swear, the guy averaged 3 thirty footers and a chip-in or two every round and made it look effortless. It is a different world. Yeah, that happened to me in hockey. Practice goalie for the wild. Fantasies about if I would have been good enough were absolutely and permanently crushed. |
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Posted: 3/30/2024 7:56:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sean124]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Logcutter: Yeah, that happened to me in hockey. Practice goalie for the wild. Fantasies about if I would have been good enough were absolutely and permanently crushed. I was a pretty good hockey player and have been on the ice with Oleg Saprykin. Again, different world. BTW, he was a fucking dick.
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Posted: 3/30/2024 8:00:27 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 3/30/2024 8:04:28 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sean124: BTW, he was a fucking dick. That's unusually in my experience with hockey players. I was goalie for the NHL Alumni in charity games for 15+ years, only a couple D-bags in all that time. Brett Hull didn't think me saying "it wasn't a goal, you were in the crease" was funny. |
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Posted: 3/30/2024 8:05:18 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Logcutter: Yeah, at least I got asked back and they let me keep the jersey. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/543436/FB_IMG_1514821182709_jpg-3174025.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/543436/IMG_20180323_191241842_jpg-3174026.JPG Sir, now that you posted that.. you have to wear that for your run at HL this year. Congratulations |
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Posted: 3/30/2024 8:08:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Logcutter]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CesSnap: Sir, now that you posted that.. you have to wear that for your run at HL this year. Congratulations I'll wear my cooler one  Attached FileHas my name on the back. And we need dates!!! I'm less fat than last year but older |
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Posted: 3/30/2024 8:21:25 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Logcutter: That's unusually in my experience with hockey players. I was goalie for the NHL Alumni in charity games for 15+ years, only a couple D-bags in all that time. Brett Hull didn't think me saying "it wasn't a goal, you were in the crease" was funny. I agree. Every nhl player I’ve met has been great except for that fucking guy. He was firing head-high slap shots in a beer league game and slew footed my dad. |
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Posted: 3/31/2024 5:11:09 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sean124: I agree. Every nhl player I’ve met has been great except for that fucking guy. He was firing head-high slap shots in a beer league game and slew footed my dad. I had a bunch of interactions with nhl players. Mostly Wings back in the cup day of the late 90's early 2000's. I worked my way thru college bartending at a metro detroit nightclub. We were the hot new club and a lot of the Wings frequented our place. Most were really great guys. I was on a first name basis with a few. After I graduated I kept the side job for fun, girls, and cash. One night I was in a pissy mood and didn't feel like dealing with the public as much so I worked the waitress well. I was standing with my back to the crowd and here, "hey Marc, check this out". As I turned around, Manny Legace (wings backup goalie in '02) soft tossed me a stanley cup ring. Have better stories I'd pm, but don't want to tell across the golf forum. |
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