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Posted: 4/18/2024 12:46:47 PM EDT
My brother has always been opposed to Libertarianism and the philosophy of Ayn Rand….
He thinks that the ideas of libertarianism are unworkable, because it requires a population of altruistic people that operate rationally. He believes that if the ideas of Libertarianism were ever enacted, large corporations would cooperate with each other to create monopolies that would take over society and control he market. He cites the Phoebus Cartel as an example: Phoebus Cartel He claims that without government, there would be nothing to keep these corporations from producing dangerous products and dumping toxins into the environment to maximize profit. How do Libertarians and Ayn Rand followers respond to this? AoD |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 12:53:07 PM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By AoD: How do Libertarians and Ayn Rand followers respond to this? Tell him to try actually reading some of her books instead of the wiki page. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 12:57:59 PM EDT
[#2]
Originally Posted By AoD: My brother has always been opposed to Libertarianism and the philosophy of Ayn Rand…. He thinks that the ideas of libertarianism are unworkable, because it requires a population of altruistic people that operate rationally. He believes that if the ideas of Libertarianism were ever enacted, large corporations would cooperate with each other to create monopolies that would take over society and control he market. - That is different than what is occurring now under government oversight? He cites the Phoebus Cartel as an example: Phoebus Cartel He claims that without government, there would be nothing to keep these corporations from producing dangerous products and dumping toxins into the environment to maximize profit. - Except that the people who run those corporations drink the same water and live in the same environment as everyone else. How do Libertarians and Ayn Rand followers respond to this? AoD True libertarianism is not anarchy or no government. |
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CHN
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Posted: 4/18/2024 12:58:46 PM EDT
[#3]
Why would he think government would improve anything? Did he sleep through 2020?
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Posted: 4/18/2024 12:59:29 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gearjammer351: Tell him to try actually reading some of her books instead of the wiki page.  Attached File |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:00:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SpeedYellow]
[#5]
The core of Libertarianism is maximizing individual freedom and competition,* not "zero government." Everyone except Communists agree monopolies are bad for the consumer, so Libertarians would agree that a proper role of government includes stopping monopolies.
Nor does Libertarianism require an altruistic population. Again, that's Communism. Dude has no clue. ETA: *ALL competition, whether between workers, companies, cities, states, and countries. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:01:13 PM EDT
[#6]
I've read some of her stuff. She presents an interesting psychological profile.
Though I still call myself an anarcho-capitalist it's a philosophy I find myself moving away from more and more because in the absence of government other forces do emerge that seek a monopoly of power. Anyone who says otherwise is just a libertarian version of those people who say, "that wasn't real socialism/communism." |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:01:20 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gearjammer351: Tell him to try actually reading some of her books instead of the wiki page. 
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USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:01:31 PM EDT
[#8]
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
C.S. Lewis. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:02:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: nvcdl]
[#9]
You brother is right - libertarian ideas don't work when you are dealing with communists.
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CHN
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:02:31 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EdgecrusherXES: True libertarianism is not anarchy or no government. There is a wide range of libertarianism. It includes anarcho-capitalism. My main issue with people who call themselves libertarian is that generally, they ignore the importance of culture. The Anglo-American project that is very libertarian in many ways was dependent on cultural characteristics. Rule of law itself (as opposed to typical rule of man) is dependent on human behavior (i.e., culture). |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:04:33 PM EDT
[#11]
Ayn Rand hated altruism more than any other concept.
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KY, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:05:03 PM EDT
[#12]
He claims that without government, there would be nothing to keep these corporations from producing dangerous products and dumping toxins into the environment to maximize profit. Well, the old Soviet Union was very much an authoritarian/totalitarian government. Yet there are many areas where industry dumped toxins. Seems a bit odd that government will attempt to protect the environment on their own. In the US government attempts to protect the environment because that is one way that politicians get elected. So, in a Republic, maybe his ideas has some merit. We have seen it doesn't work in a totalitarian system though. |
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SC, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:06:16 PM EDT
[#13]
I tell him his rationale doesn't go far enough. Libertarians are cancer. Their ideology has no way of defending against children being manipulated into the transgender cult.
They believe that sound fiscal policy is all that is necessary to provide a solid foundation for a stable society. So long as number go up, they can't see any issue. Lastly, their ideology relies proselytizing. They're philosophically averse to gaining and using power. They think if only enough people hears Rothbard or Hoppe or Keynes that we'd end up in a libertarian utopia. I hate them more than ahit libs and progressives. At least those guys have an ethos. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:06:30 PM EDT
[#14]
All forms of government require people to be altruistic to some extent, in order to work long term, and we aren’t, so they don’t.
This isn’t an argument against any form of libertarianism specifically but an argument against the possibility of *any* government staying stable long term. Governments fail. Warlords take over. People esteem trash and ignore virtue. People get what they want, good and hard. These are constants regardless of political philosophy. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:06:45 PM EDT
[#15]
So, your brother is an authoritarian who doesn't recognize a person's right to their own life? Slavery "worked." Shit got done and the slaves got food, clothing and shelter. It just happened to be objectively immoral as hell.
BTW, Ayn Rand denounced altruism because it's self destructive. I don't think that your brother really understands Objectivism or libertarianism. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:06:56 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gearjammer351: Tell him to try actually reading some of her books instead of the wiki page. Hummm....not sure that will help me convert him to the concepts of either Libertarianism or Ayn Rand....  AoD |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:07:45 PM EDT
[#17]
Rand did not propose zero government.
Government, in her view, had a specifically defined role. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:07:49 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gearjammer351: Tell him to try actually reading some of her books instead of the wiki page. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gearjammer351: Originally Posted By AoD: How do Libertarians and Ayn Rand followers respond to this? Tell him to try actually reading some of her books instead of the wiki page. That FPNI again. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:08:46 PM EDT
[#19]
Originally Posted By AoD: My brother has always been opposed to Libertarianism and the philosophy of Ayn Rand…. He thinks that the ideas of libertarianism are unworkable, because it requires a population of altruistic people that operate rationally. He believes that if the ideas of Libertarianism were ever enacted, large corporations would cooperate with each other to create monopolies that would take over society and control he market. He cites the Phoebus Cartel as an example: Phoebus Cartel He claims that without government, there would be nothing to keep these corporations from producing dangerous products and dumping toxins into the environment to maximize profit. How do Libertarians and Ayn Rand followers respond to this? AoD No government is just anarchy. Anarchists with a bunch of mumbo jumbo about "liberty". One of the purposes of government is to protect our rights. |
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CHN
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:08:53 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SpeedYellow: The core of Libertarianism is maximizing individual freedom and competition,* not "zero government." Everyone except Communists agree monopolies are bad for the consumer, so Libertarians would agree that a proper role of government includes stopping monopolies. Nor does Libertarianism require an altruistic population. Again, that's Communism. Dude has no clue. ETA: *ALL competition, whether between workers, companies, cities, states, and countries. Libertarianism, and indeed all rule of law systems, require certain cultural characteristics. True communism can't work. But some sort of rule of man (dictatorship, etc.) is the norm in human society. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:09:20 PM EDT
[#21]
large corporations run congress now.
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PAN
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:09:44 PM EDT
[#22]
He's right but I doubt he'll ever understand why. Libertarians will never be successful because they refuse to wield any power. Look at what the rouge Republicans have done in Shasta County (California) for a blue print of what meaningful change is. Until libertarians can organize and use power like this they'll continue to ammout to nothing. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:10:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: uncle_big_green]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fulminate: I tell him his rationale doesn't go far enough. Libertarians are cancer. Their ideology has no way of defending against children being manipulated into the transgender cult. They believe that sound fiscal policy is all that is necessary to provide a solid foundation for a stable society. So long as number go up, they can't see any issue. Lastly, their ideology relies proselytizing. They're philosophically averse to gaining and using power. They think if only enough people hears Rothbard or Hoppe or Keynes that we'd end up in a libertarian utopia. I hate them more than ahit libs and progressives. At least those guys have an ethos. Get help. Keynes? WTF? |
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CHN
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:12:14 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By arowneragain: All forms of government require people to be altruistic to some extent, in order to work long term, and we aren’t, so they don’t. This isn’t an argument against any form of libertarianism specifically but an argument against the possibility of *any* government staying stable long term. Governments fail. Warlords take over. People esteem trash and ignore virtue. People get what they want, good and hard. These are constants regardless of political philosophy. It's because rule of law depends on human behavior. Behavior changes over time and eventually it can't sustain rule of law. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:12:48 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By grendelbane: Well, the old Soviet Union was very much an authoritarian/totalitarian government. Yet there are many areas where industry dumped toxins. Seems a bit odd that government will attempt to protect the environment on their own. In the US government attempts to protect the environment because that is one way that politicians get elected. So, in a Republic, maybe his ideas has some merit. We have seen it doesn't work in a totalitarian system though. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By grendelbane: He claims that without government, there would be nothing to keep these corporations from producing dangerous products and dumping toxins into the environment to maximize profit. Well, the old Soviet Union was very much an authoritarian/totalitarian government. Yet there are many areas where industry dumped toxins. Seems a bit odd that government will attempt to protect the environment on their own. In the US government attempts to protect the environment because that is one way that politicians get elected. So, in a Republic, maybe his ideas has some merit. We have seen it doesn't work in a totalitarian system though. Yep, authoritarian governments do tend to have abysmal environmental records. Especially the former Soviet Union. The way they made then covered up various nuclear, biological and chemical disasters over the years qualifies as crimes against humanity in my book. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:15:37 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By uncle_big_green: So, your brother is an authoritarian who doesn't recognize a person's right to their own life? Slavery "worked." Shit got done and the slaves got food, clothing and shelter. It just happened to be objectively immoral as hell. BTW, Ayn Rand denounced altruism because it's self destructive. I don't think that your brother really understands Objectivism or libertarianism. He should read The Fountainhead |
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CHN
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:15:46 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By grendelbane: Well, the old Soviet Union was very much an authoritarian/totalitarian government. Yet there are many areas where industry dumped toxins. Seems a bit odd that government will attempt to protect the environment on their own. In the US government attempts to protect the environment because that is one way that politicians get elected. So, in a Republic, maybe his ideas has some merit. We have seen it doesn't work in a totalitarian system though. Government fucks up the environment in the US as well. Less so than the USSR, perhaps. The state of CA just fucked up salmon in one of the rivers. State and fed government is pushing windmills that have a negative impact on wildlife, including whales. And pushing for the mass production of toxic batteries. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:19:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By piciphant: large corporations run congress now. They pretty much always have. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:20:14 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EdgecrusherXES: True libertarianism is not anarchy or no government. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EdgecrusherXES: Originally Posted By AoD: My brother has always been opposed to Libertarianism and the philosophy of Ayn Rand…. He thinks that the ideas of libertarianism are unworkable, because it requires a population of altruistic people that operate rationally. He believes that if the ideas of Libertarianism were ever enacted, large corporations would cooperate with each other to create monopolies that would take over society and control he market. - That is different than what is occurring now under government oversight? He cites the Phoebus Cartel as an example: Phoebus Cartel He claims that without government, there would be nothing to keep these corporations from producing dangerous products and dumping toxins into the environment to maximize profit. - Except that the people who run those corporations drink the same water and live in the same environment as everyone else. How do Libertarians and Ayn Rand followers respond to this? AoD True libertarianism is not anarchy or no government. I disagree. They believe that "ALL taxation is illegal and immoral" and all government force is tyranny. Stupid, but it's just anarchism. Less government and less tyranny is a noble goal but no government is just anarchy. America's founding fathers were not anarchist. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:20:19 PM EDT
[#30]
Originally Posted By AoD: My brother has always been opposed to Libertarianism and the philosophy of Ayn Rand…. .... How do Libertarians and Ayn Rand followers respond to this? AoD we have a Constitution trouble is -- we don't follow it anymore |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:21:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mordecai]
[#31]
The philosophies involved are secondary.
The issue is that all institutions are made up of people, and people are only trustworthy when they're held accountable. So discuss .Gov and Libertarianism from the prospective where accountability has gone out the window. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:22:23 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hesperus: I've read some of her stuff. She presents an interesting psychological profile. Though I still call myself an anarcho-capitalist it's a philosophy I find myself moving away from more and more because in the absence of government other forces do emerge that seek a monopoly of power. Anyone who says otherwise is just a libertarian version of those people who say, "that wasn't real socialism/communism." I'm an apostate from the Religion of Capitalism/LOLbertarianism for the reason you articulated. |
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SGP
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:23:17 PM EDT
[#33]
Originally Posted By AoD: How do Libertarians and Ayn Rand followers respond to this? 
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:23:18 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MFP_4073: we have a Constitution trouble is -- we don't follow it anymore Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MFP_4073: Originally Posted By AoD: My brother has always been opposed to Libertarianism and the philosophy of Ayn Rand…. .... How do Libertarians and Ayn Rand followers respond to this? AoD we have a Constitution trouble is -- we don't follow it anymore And how do you get people to follow it again? Ask them nicely and hope they play by the rules? |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:23:48 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By markl32: He's right but I doubt he'll ever understand why. Libertarians will never be successful because they refuse to wield any power. Look at what the rouge Republicans have done in Shasta County (California) for a blue print of what meaningful change is. Until libertarians can organize and use power like this they'll continue to ammout to nothing. correct -- men WILL be governed. if you don't step up and use power to implement your better system -- someone else will. and if no one does -- you get Haiti. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:24:42 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AoD: Hummm....not sure that will help me convert him to the concepts of either Libertarianism or Ayn Rand.... AoD Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AoD: Originally Posted By gearjammer351: Tell him to try actually reading some of her books instead of the wiki page. Hummm....not sure that will help me convert him to the concepts of either Libertarianism or Ayn Rand.... AoD Of course not. I've read the Quran, and I'm not a muslim. I've also read 'Das Kapital' and I'm not a communist. I just think that anyone who wishes to critique something owes it to themselves to actually understand what it really espouses (see above) and not to just throw feces at it because it's not what they believe or has some inherent opposition to their sacred cow. It's intellectually dishonest not to learn more about ideals than the surface-level IF you're going to condemn them. I would consider myself an Objectivist. I've read a lot of Rand's writings, writings of her cohorts, and critiques of her ideas. At least 90% of the people who bash her have apparently only read the titles of a few of her books based on how they argue against the ideas she developed. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:27:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: uncle_big_green]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By odiedodi: Usually by calling them a statist and a bootlicker. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By odiedodi: Originally Posted By AoD: How do Libertarians and Ayn Rand followers respond to this? "If the boot fits..." ...including the surface of your tongue. 
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:29:04 PM EDT
[#38]
Originally Posted By AoD: How do Libertarians and Ayn Rand followers respond to this? AoD As for pollution... private property rights trump a lot of other BS. You poison my ground water and it would, ethically at least, be the same as trying to shoot me. Non-initiation of force is a key tenet of libertarianism... but the corollary to that is RESPONDING to an initiation of force, fraud, or theft with overwhelming and decisive defensive force. Also... Rand is a popular voice... but have them try reading some Rothbard, Hayek, Friedman, or Mises... |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:54:01 PM EDT
[#39]
A government that forbids use of violence or fraud is assumed.
The only way to achieve a monopoly would be to convince all customers that dealing with you is their best choice. If you can do that - fine, keep it up. Even if you're making 'ridiculous' profits. As soon as you blow that by cranking prices above market value or whatever then others will move back into your market space. Also monopolies are more fragile than generally considered. Monopolize bread and charge absurd prices and people will eat more potatoes instead. Empirically, destructive monopolies are more likely to have been supported by government involvement than lack of it. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:54:50 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fulminate: I tell him his rationale doesn't go far enough. Libertarians are cancer. Their ideology has no way of defending against children being manipulated into the transgender cult. They believe that sound fiscal policy is all that is necessary to provide a solid foundation for a stable society. So long as number go up, they can't see any issue. Lastly, their ideology relies proselytizing. They're philosophically averse to gaining and using power. They think if only enough people hears Rothbard or Hoppe or Keynes that we'd end up in a libertarian utopia. I hate them more than ahit libs and progressives. At least those guys have an ethos.  |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:57:30 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SamuelAdams1776: No government is just anarchy. Anarchists with a bunch of mumbo jumbo about "liberty". One of the purposes of government is to protect our rights. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SamuelAdams1776: Originally Posted By AoD: My brother has always been opposed to Libertarianism and the philosophy of Ayn Rand…. He thinks that the ideas of libertarianism are unworkable, because it requires a population of altruistic people that operate rationally. He believes that if the ideas of Libertarianism were ever enacted, large corporations would cooperate with each other to create monopolies that would take over society and control he market. He cites the Phoebus Cartel as an example: Phoebus Cartel He claims that without government, there would be nothing to keep these corporations from producing dangerous products and dumping toxins into the environment to maximize profit. How do Libertarians and Ayn Rand followers respond to this? AoD No government is just anarchy. Anarchists with a bunch of mumbo jumbo about "liberty". One of the purposes of government is to protect our rights. Which is ironic, as many of the self-described libertarians in this thread will argue that the government is the only entity that CAN violate someone's rights. |
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CHN
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Posted: 4/18/2024 1:58:37 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Hesperus: And how do you get people to follow it again? Ask them nicely and hope they play by the rules? As I stated above, rule of law requires certain behavior. Culture matters. At this point we as a society are very invested in not following the Constitution. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 2:02:33 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kzin: A government that forbids use of violence or fraud is assumed. The only way to achieve a monopoly would be to convince all customers that dealing with you is their best choice. If you can do that - fine, keep it up. Even if you're making 'ridiculous' profits. As soon as you blow that by cranking prices above market value or whatever then others will move back into your market space. Also monopolies are more fragile than generally considered. Monopolize bread and charge absurd prices and people will eat more potatoes instead. Empirically, destructive monopolies are more likely to have been supported by government involvement than lack of it. Came to say this. Large central governments tend to create and protect monopolies when they would not exist otherwise. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 2:04:20 PM EDT
[#44]
Some libertarians support antitrust laws. Some don't. You can totally have a small government that doesn't do very much, and one of the few things it does is enforce antitrust laws.
But the choice is not between A) "not having antitrust laws and everything would be a monopoly"; and B) "having antitrust laws and nothing will be a monopoly, with no other consequences". The choice is between A) "not having antitrust laws and monopolies sometimes but not usually emerging" (monopoly was not the norm prior to antitrust laws); and B) "having antitrust laws and still ending up with some monopolies because the laws aren't 100% effective and governments create their own monopolies, and also having the other consequences of these laws like them being used to cripple some non-monopolies". |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 2:13:25 PM EDT
[#45]
Taxation is theft all government is immoral.
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Posted: 4/18/2024 2:14:45 PM EDT
[#46]
Your brother is what's called a zero sum thinker. You don't need an altruistic society at all,... in fact rampant altruism is detrimental to a functioning civilization. People working for their own interests without harming others will however look like "altruism" to zerosum thinkers. These kind of folk simply don't understand how they can "win" without also ensuring others lose, and trying to explain it to them is like teaching calculus to a 2 year old.
TLDR: Your brother is functionally psychotic and believes imposing your will on others using force is "progress", even though thousands of years of history teach us it's consistently a hindrance to it. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 2:15:16 PM EDT
[#47]
You have the Government as a monopoly as well as choosing monopolies
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Posted: 4/18/2024 2:15:26 PM EDT
[#48]
My opinion- libertarians fail because their quest for individualism does not stand up to organizations or organized violence.
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Posted: 4/18/2024 2:15:57 PM EDT
[#49]
"Government is best which governs least." - HDT
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NY, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 2:16:33 PM EDT
[#50]
Government is a necessary evil.
those who deny either word are nuts. |
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