Gun people like story time...

Shooters want quality instruction.

It's about shooting fast AND good.

Not many people can do that.  Including many tactimmays.

For the vast majority, rounds start going everywhere but the intended target when you step on the gas.

Need evidence?   Every police shooting where 100 rounds are expended and the perp gets hit twice.

They are better at body slamming 18 yo girls.

LOL seems so.

Including many of the Timmay instructors.  They teach self limiting techniques that create training ruts that students will have to unlearn if they want to progress to the next level, but since the Instructor was never able to get to that level, they don't know the problem they are creating.  

Ben Stoeger calling out shit instructors and their BS is great the shooting community.  But tactical timmays won't listen because they just want the fantasy and not the skill

The reason I am asking your age is because Travis Haley was introduced to the "world" through a certain video.

You are in the distinct minority then. Rock on - sincerely - but don’t go thinking the average Joe can do that.

I’ve seen a lot of shooters since I started shooting, nearly all of them would benefit greatly from professional instruction. I know I have.

What percentage of people own guns? 35-55% maybe?

Of those, how many have any training beyond what dad, grandpa or a friend taught them about holding a weapon and safety basics? I'd say that covers 75-90+ % of gun owners. Some or most of what little they were taught, is probably wrong.

The guys who are military trained or went to a course or two, how often do they shoot? I know a lot of gun owning vets, most of them shoot 1-2 times a year. The majority really didn't shoot much or learn much about it, while in the military.

The vast majority of competition people I've met go to the range or a competition an average of once a month. They have basic proficiency with a pistol or rifle (very few are proficient with both). Of the guys decent with a rifle, you've generally got one group who is good with a tactical rifle to maybe 500 or 600 yards. Then he got the long range guys who are good at that, but usually not as handy with an AR. It is pretty obvious that most of these people do not do dry fire or go to the range much outside of the matches. People have jobs and other responsibilities.

It's true that most of the tactical trainer guys could be better shooters, if they shot and competed more. And the thing most of the competition bros don't want to admit, is that they have a lot to learn about tactics. There's a few Grand Masters around the local area... I have never seen them shooting rifles. And if they did so regularly, I almost certainly would have seen them.

No one knows everything, and very few people are truly trained or experienced at any of this stuff. Few people have a basic proficiency with a rifle and pistol. Very very few people are proficient with both rifles and pistols and can shoot rifles out to 500+ yards. Aside from the Green Berets who occasionally show up to local matches, I can count on one hand the number of guys I've seen who are proficient with a rifle, pistol and might have a clue about tactics.

So yeah the vast majority of people could benefit significantly from shooting competition and / or taking a training course.

I don't agree with everything Clint says, but he has been a trainer for decades. He has and can instruct people how to obtain basic proficiency with a pistol and a rifle at short and long range. A lot of people talking shit here do not have a basic proficiency at those three things.

Attached File

LOL. True, think I can say the same.

That's one of the things that separates competition from real life. In a real fight, "missing" is almost a given, and more often than not, isn't a bad thing. Real targets are a lot more complex. And suppressing fire is an important thing.

Missing isn't a bad thing  Wow

He's entertrainment (stolen from Pranka).  If it wasn't for Najaf he'd be a nobody.

How many companies do you own and how does their revenue look like?

This has been a thing in almost every class I've taken. There are a lot of military enthusiasts in gun culture and to many, it's a highlight to get to meet and shoot with their favorite warfighter, all for a fee.

Some people really need to get over the stigma of LARPing and go larp.

Missing isn't a good thing.

Better go tell the military to get rid of all their machine guns and issue everyone a sniper rifle then since missing is automatically bad.

Is a miss as good as a hit? Obviously not. Is it better than doing nothing while you wait for the perfect, guaranteed hit? Almost always.

Just making noise is mostly something that happens with some combination of engagement distance, miss distance and experienced / committed enemy. Learning what is, and is not effective suppressive fire, and the speed you can do that, is an art to itself and somewhat unique to every fight. Even "just making noise" can be useful. There are times and places for warning shots.

Suppressing fire is a thing. Often it is "missing" either somewhat intentionally or unintentionally. It's the thing that has enabled the maneuver that ultimately ended the most gunfights. Positional advantage is often decisive.

A lot of untrained people don't know that "missing" is effective fire if it stops or alters the maneuver of your enemy and prevents them from obtaining a position of advantage.

There aren't a lot of "fair" gunfights, won by who is the best shooter. They are mostly won by who has the unfair advantage. Cops know what their advantages are, and that's one of the reasons they "miss" a lot and still win most of the time.

Missing really isn't the right word to describe suppressing fire, because you are still putting rounds more or less where you intend to. I'm sure some one will take something I've said here way out of context or try to pick it apart otherwise, because internet. But yeah anyone who looks at a gunfight and critiques it based solely on hits and misses of people... Doesn't know shit about fighting. That data point, by itself, is pretty meaningless.

You ever have a bullet tickle your ear?
I have never been flatter on the fucking dirt in my life.

I have no idea what your point is. I am aware of who Travis Haley is and his background. Can you explain what your point is in regards to my comment?

Competition comment was really odd at least to me. What they do and teach is a bit limited to "measure" what they are trying to get across.
I just thought you were too young to know who he was and what he did.

It's usually not all bad either.

Is the a lot of suppressive fire training in fantasy camp?

From what I remember, not a lot of guys rolling around with video cameras, filming themselves in those days.

That by itself is kinda telling to me.

Military machine gun training is fantasy camp? Lol

When I was in the Army, we spent WAY more time discussing things like support by fire, maneuver, suppressing fire. We trained on it a lot. We did that a whole lot more than playing quick draw mcgraw and shooting static cardboard cutouts, while standing in the open.  

The engagements you’re more likely to see in the civvie world are not the same as massed fire on a terrorist stronghold.

Any civilian trainers should understand that and modify their courses for the student base. Out here in the non-military world, every bullet has a dollar tag attached to it.

Yeah. In the army.  That's not fantasy camp. This is a bunch of overweight larpers playing on the weekend

So is there alot of machine gun work in your weekend fantasy camp

I agree with what you are saying. However, the principles of fire and maneuver still do apply at the individual and small team level.

This cop was suppressed, flanked and murdered by one dude who started the fight out by "missing"  

If you don't wanna believe in suppressive fire and it's merits in gunfighting, that's fine. You are just showing your ignorance. I am sure you are a great competition shooter, which sorta helps illuminate a lot of my points about that community. My days of not taking you serious are coming to a middle.

go find someone that can make you better and train with them whether they are LE/Mil or competition based.  The egos on both sides of the fence, when it comes to this, can be astounding at times.

Is suppressive fire a thing in the real world with family, friends, and strangers children running around? A miss is a miss and you own it. A shot you take with no bad guy in the picture should still be aimed at something (brick wall, dirt, something). I believe in the value of keeping someone’s head down but just shooting for sound seems dumb outside of a war zone.

If you are actively shooting at someone, seems like being able to hit them is significantly more valuable tactically as well as more valuable for the safety of everyone else in the area.

Maybe all you tactards are right…only tactics count, actual skill with a firearm will get you killlllt in da streetz.

Keep it simple aka shut up and shoot some steel with your pistols.

You learning to fight as a team and lay down suppressive fire in Travis class?  Any non military class teach that?  

I knew LARPers like to fantasize, but this is whole new level of retardation

Sounds like you lack proprioceptive dynamicism.

Marksmanship is absolutely important and I’m not cutting it short.

If someone lays down suppressing fire on you and they gain effective suppression
You’re fixed, you cant observe maneuver and your ability to return fire is degraded.

If that’s reached it doesn’t matter if you’re twice the marksman they’re.

Think lone survivor. Absolutely those 4 seals were better marksmen’s than those 8 to 12 Taliban. The Taliban used tactics to gain an advantage. Suppressed/fired, maneuvered, and destroyed their enemy.

Edit. I’m not saying you need a belt fed and throwing crazy amounts of rounds everywhere but to effectively suppress a target could be a slow cadence of fire accurately on a bad guys concealment or cover so your family or other people can run away. Of course if you can accurately stop an enemy in a few shots that’s great but if I can suppress someone that’s not a bad thing either.

Sup bro, guy who used to be a machine gunner here. I know a little bit about suppressive fire. I Got my CIB from engagement in which I used an entire can of Ma Deuce ammo to take out one guy.

Missing is a bad thing.

Then why did you miss 99/100 shots?

It is. Just not how you think it is.

My skill level didn't match my enthusiasm.

My first tic was very similar. My first burst was pretty damn close but by the end of the can I couldnt see shit except a big dust cloud.

For the same reason that the top military operators hire competition shooters to train them I would like to see trainers shoot in open competitions to showcase their skills. I think it would think out the herd with a quickness. Everyone likes conflate tactics and shooting fundamentals to fit their argument but you can't lie your way to a podium.

My point is that there are so many instructors that talk the talk but are mediocre shooters. It's similar to people bench racing their guns but never shooting them. With the rise of social media there are so many videos with people looking all badass and burning down a stage they've set up but no way to really know how that compares.

Lol you think you're at army training when you play dress up at fantasy camp because they story time before you put a few handgun rounds on a static paper target, while standing in a line next to other LARP'er in their costumes

You act like you never trained anyone. How do you get people to buy into what you’re saying or you as an instructor. Most people want story time. They want to hear how what you’re teaching is relevant to the experiences you have had.

True.

Better at what?

Shooter is such a broad term. Most people taking firearms training are more interested in learning to fight, with a firearm, than learning how to improve their USPSA classifier or win at Camp Perry

Matches test match ability. Might as well hand them 1911s and drop them in the 50 yard line if your measure is marksmanship.

A better test would be dropping them
off at an airsoft range with simunitions and see who kills the other 3:5 tries