User Panel
Show me your bar card and I'll show you mine. I doubt you are licensed or practicing. All I advise is to try and keep fellows out of trouble, your spin on the topic risks getting people into trouble. Surprising for a staff m. to play fast and loose and surprising your tone and demeanor to a team member. We are not colleagues, i'd kick your ass in or on the court. Wannabe. Put your money where your mouth is,,,I bet I can find the cases where men have gone to jail for possessing M16 parts in conjunction with an AR15. ..thought so. We are talking about a single part here. Bolt carrier. You say its legal to posses and own even installed in an AR. Yet all the name dealers won't sell one to John Q Public without a tax stamp or other NFA type proof and Bushmaster advises that the ATF says even one M16 part makes your gun illegal as far as they are concerned. You advise this is bullshit, but it is in their catalogues still today. Must be printed lies, heh, counsel. You don't even know the exceptions to the hearsay rule, lol, much less the rule against perpetuities. Haha. Bet me, I'll out-lawyer you anyday. Don't tell me I don't know shit or I am not a lawyer when I worked pretty damn hard to earn the title. Hell, I won a Texas Supreme Court Case 2 years out of law school. Have you even argued before the Supreme Court? That's all I'll say and I apologize to the other members who are not your "yes" boys for my having to set this turkey straight. Please don't waste more billable hours either with tearing apart this thread. It serves no purpose. I had to defend myself. Case closed. |
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lawdawg430, Esq. JD BA
When I Fight, I Win. |
Okay big guy, name me 3 dealers that sell DIREcT TO THE PUBLIC other than Bushmaster that won't sell a M-16 bolt to someone (and Colt doesn't count, as they barely count anymore) And since you have access to supposed cases where people have been convicted of possession of an unregistered MG for possession of ONLY a M-16 bolt carrier, post the cases. |
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Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights
Get up, stand up, don't give up the fight - Bob Marley |
Lawdawg, you are either MMR or very clever and having some fun with us.
No one with a law degree AND who passed any bar would say this:
You can't even read a one paragraph federal code section. That is a true shame if you really are a JD. 21 USC 5845(b) clearly states no such thing. It states:
Nor would a non-caveman lawyer say this:
ATF has never taken such a position, ever. From BATFE's 2-14-05 letter to Chen regarding the installation of M16 B/C's in Colt ARs:
The former Chief seems to agree with us. You can't even read a letter in this very thread that refutes your own distorted view of an otherwise clear code section and the position of BATFE. I even asked you twice to go read it, but you either are too lazy or you lack the grey matter to do even remedial research. And the pies d resistance, no one, and I mean NO ONE, with half a legal brain would ever say this:
I've been practicing for 16 years, am licensed in the US Supreme Court, the 4th Circuit (not a user-friendly place), Virginia and Hawaii. I've represented numerous members on this board and the board itself when we had troubles with Colt (I dealt directly with Carlton Chen). I am in court everyday. You, on the other hand, have done nothing but show your ass in this and other threads when it comes to legal matters. Here's the deal Lawdawg, despite the entertainment value of kicking your cyber ass all over this thread, I really do despise misinformation. That is the reason this thread is tacked. You are so irresponsible in this regard that I am banning you from this thread. The amusement is not worth the potential confusion to folks who really want to learn. Do not post in it again. Go away and play wannabe lawyer somewhere else. To any noobs: Please ignore this guy's "opinions" and remember to do your own research. Don't rely on me or anyone else. Take what we say with a grain of salt and do the research yourself. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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lawdawg430,
Give me some reported cases that back up your position. I have my Lexis and Westlaw logins ready. |
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MarkM's only friend.
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+1 Well done. FWIW I'm a licensed attorney, too. Maybe we should have an ARFCOM attorney poll on the subject. |
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That is absolutely correct, and it is covered under the law. That (Lightning Link) is a device designed and intended solely and exclusively for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun so that along with a DIAS (Drop in Autosear) must be registered as an MG in and of itself. These are not stock parts or replacement parts and are not treated the same. The M16 carrier is a stock replacement part and in and of itself cannot make the rifle go full auto.
Confusing. If you are talking about the BOLT, there is no such thing as an M16 bolt versus an AR-15 bolt, they are the same part. If you are talking about the Carrier, then you are incorrect. The purpose is to use a carrier of the weight designed to run in the system. The heavier the carrier, the more capable it is of stripping the round and going into battery. It's a reliability issue. The lighter the carrier, the less inertia it has and so becomes more sensitive to friction from metal contact, fouling, magazine spring pressure on the cartridge, etc. ETA: As an option to those who still fear, buy a nice Young/LBC carrier. Not only are they equal in weight to the M16 carrier (and may be the only one), but are designed with enhancements. They are pricey but a really good. I've got a question since I'm not a lawyer (but I can read). Bushmaster was confronted on this issue and said they would think about retracting the erroneous statement in their catalog, but in the end choose to cover their asses and leave it in. They are claiming a Federal law falsely. Is there nothing that can be done to stop them from printing the lie short of suing them? They continue to cause generations of misinformation. |
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Visit the ALASKA FORUM on ARF at http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=43
"This topic obviously hit a nerve among the folks out there. No one has uttered the esteemed Arfcom cheer: Get both." - Amicus |
If you relied on the opinion to your financial or physical detriment, then maybe you could sue. But I can't imagine that ever happening. Short of that, nothing I can think of doing to them shy of litigation. It is beyond silly that they keep that statement going. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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It helps to show which 'lawyers' understand the actual gun laws!! |
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Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights
Get up, stand up, don't give up the fight - Bob Marley |
Lawdawg,
I told you not to post in this thread. Do not do it again. ATF has been consistent on this issue, even in your quote. If you bother to read it completely and pay attention to connectors like "and" as well as phrases like "in conjunction with" and the words "removal of" etc, you will understand this. Go away, this is your last warning. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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According to the Fall Edition 1986 FFL Newsletter, Public Laws 99-308 and 99-360 amend the GCA 1968 and the NFA, effective 11-19-86:
'The definition of a machinegun includes any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun." "In order to avoid possible violations of the NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR15-type semi-automatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR15 Model Sp1 configuration. Any AR15-type rifles which have been assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR15 Model SP1 type parts. These parts are available commercially or...." |
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HydGuy,
I noticed your 231 logo; very nice! Are you stoill there? I wish I could have stayed there longer. I'm at 223 now. Come find me in the S-2 if you want to talk guns one day! |
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www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/gen_info.pdf
2. INFORMATION CONCERNING AR-15 TYPE RIFLES ATF has encountered various AR-15 type assault rifles such as those manufactured by Colt, E.A. Company, SGW, Sendra and others, which have been assembled with fire control components designed for use in M16 machineguns. The vast majority of these rifles which have been assembled with an M16 bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector will fire automatically merely by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector. Many of these rifles using less than the 5 M16 parts listed above also will shoot automatically by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector. Any weapon which shoots automatically more than 1 shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger, is a machinegun as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845(b), the National Firearms Act (NFA). The definition of a machinegun also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun may be assembled, if such parts are in possession or under the control of a person. An AR-15 type assault rifle which fires more than 1 shot by a single function of the trigger is a machinegun under the NFA. Any machinegun is subject to the NFA and the possession of an unregistered machinegun could subject the possessor to criminal prosecution. Additionally, these rifles could pose a safety hazard in that they may fire automatically without the user being aware that the weapon will fire more than 1 shot with a single pull of the trigger. In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 Model SP1 type parts which are available commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. It is important to note that any modification of the M16 parts should be attempted by fully qualified personnel only. Should you have any questions concerning AR-15 type rifles with M16 parts, please contact your nearest ATF office. A list of ATF field offices is on page 198 of this publication. |
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jcp: You posted the exact same post, with the exact same format, as one Lawdawg tried to post a few days ago. I trashed it. It now shows up again. I would not associate myself with him in this thread if I were you. If you are not doing lawdawg's bidding, then I apologize. The quote is very old but still proves nothing and is a re-hash of things said over and over in this thread. Again, look at phrases like "by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector" and "will shoot automaticallyby manipulation of the selector." Try and understand the legal question posed in this thread. The original poster and the rest of us law-abiding folks never intended (nor do we now) to construct an AR that "will shoot automatically by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector." If we did, we would be in violation of federal law. Our ARs would fit the description of "machine gun" under the code section CORRECTLY cited by the ATF in that very same quote. Thank you for wasting more time. Do youself a favor, realize that Lawdawg's ramblings equate to a flaming bag of cyber poo carelessly thrown into this thread with reckless disregard for the truth. It will make your life less confusing if you do this from now on. Assuming he really is a practicing attorney, God help anyone who actually hires this guy. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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I just passed on information from the ATF web site with a link for those that are curious.
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Thank Christ that people with opinions like this weren't taking action on our behalf in 1776.
Correct. |
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jcp, if my assumption regarding lawdawg and you was incorrect, you have my apology. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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I think most of us are well aware of this letter (it is not even an ATF regulation). A bolt carrier alone will not make your AR15 into a machinegun. If you ask the ATF, they'll tell you have an M16 bolt carrier, but no other M16 fire control parts in your possession, they may tell you that you should replace the M16 carrier with an AR15 carrier, but you're not going to get busted if you don't. The fact is, if the M16 carrier is the only M16 fire control component you have, then you don't have an MG. |
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Jesus, if owning an M16 bolt carrier was illegal.
LMT would have been shut down, for sending me one with a Semi-Auto lower. I can't even begin to name how many people have M16 bolt carriers in their LEGAL semi-auto AR-15. ETA: Also aren't all Colts shipped with M16 carriers? |
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Originally Posted By AmericanPatriot1776:
The best thing Kurt Cobain ever released was the safety. "Abe Lincoln may have freed all men, but Sam Colt made them equal." |
I'm not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to be. Per my recent contact with Bushmaster in regards to the exact question posted earlier in this thread. The reply goes as such and this is not a quote, just my shortened version of our phone conversation. Bushmasters stance on M16 parts as other manufacters as well is due soley to the fact that our society is so sue happy and rather that having the possiblility of some dishonest individuals commit a felony and then blame the manufacture, the movies made me do it, videos game made me do it, they sold me the parts so it's really their fault.... So Bushmaster can make the blanket statement that they do not sell M16 parts without a copy of the appropriate documents, knowing full well that this is not the official stance of the BTAF but merely Bushmasters policy.
My opinion on the matter is if you are not willing to do the research by contacting the appropriate legal goverment entities, then you have no buisness trying to obtain the items in question. My experiences and I will repeat my experiances with BTAF is you may own and have installed as many M16 parts in your rifle you want as long as........ The rifle with the total combination of parts does not fire more than one shot per pull of the trigger. Here are the exceptions to this rule. These are the only parts soley described by BTAF as being machine gun parts and require registration. These are also the only parts that carry a individual serial number and it is for this exact reason. 1. The reciever is not machined to accept a auto sear, as this is now a conversion part that cannot be returened to it's original state. Considered to be a machine gun and requires a tax stamp. 2. Lighting link (LL or RLL). This is a conversion part that is soley designed to produce automatic fire. Considered to be a machine gun and requires a tax stamp. 3. Drop is auto sear (DIAS or RDIAS). This is a conversion part designed soley to produce automatic fire for recievers not machined to accept a USGI auto sear in conjunction with a compete M16 fire control group. Considered to be a machine gun and requires a tax stamp. Unregistered possesion of any of the above mentioned parts in any number assembled or dissassembled is considered by BTAF to be in possesion of a unregistered machine gun. The only M16 fire control part that I do not have complete information on regarding legal ownershp on yet is a USGI auto sear. The sear is a stock replacement part and is not serial numbered and will not fit a unmachined receiver without modification, there for is not a conversion part. It is though designed to provide full automatic fire and that is where the gray area lies. This is as I stated above and will restate my dealing with the legalities of M16 parts ownership. If in doubt contact your legal represenative and find out for your self. If you find it to be not worth the effort, then don't buy the parts. David |
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You're looking too deep into this- re Bushmaster. Bushmaster can and should do whatever the hell Bushmaster wants to do when it comes to selling full auto parts. Hell, if they hired me, I'd tell them to get a Form 4 etc. before they sold the parts just to be on the safe side. We're focussing on their statement regarding full auto parts. Their recitation regarding what "postition" ATF takes on "even one" full auto part is complete and utter BULLSHIT. We can understand retards blinded by ignorance and delusional self-worth getting it wrong- they either don't know any better or simply can't figure shit out on their own. Some of them simply cling to the above-mentioned bullshit and cite Bushmaster as their source. HOWEVER, Bushmaster knows better and they continue perpetrating bullshit. It's that simple. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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Yes I know, that is why I contacted BTAF myself for my own clarity on the subject rather than rely on just what a manufacture says. I was just trying to politely state this without bashing anyone and share my corospondances as to what BTAF told me as to what is legal and what is not.
David |
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And the letter you got was taking into consideration the use of ALL the M-16 parts, or removing the disconnector, which will make an AR-15 slamfire no matter WHAT parts are in it, or manipulating the controls in a manner that they were not designeds to be used. The LAW is clear. you can have as many parts as you want in the gun AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T FIRE MORE THAN ONE ROUND PER COMPLETE TRIGGER PULL. |
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Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights
Get up, stand up, don't give up the fight - Bob Marley |
"And the letter you got was taking into consideration the use of ALL the M-16 parts, or removing the disconnector, which will make an AR-15 slamfire no matter WHAT parts are in it, or manipulating the controls in a manner that they were not designeds to be used."
I never stated anything about removal or manuplation of parts. "The LAW is clear. you can have as many parts as you want in the gun AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T FIRE MORE THAN ONE ROUND PER COMPLETE TRIGGER PULL." That is exactly what I said two posts above. edit puntuation |
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A little history behind the letter is helpful:
"In a March 11, 1986 memorandum, ATF made the following observations on this phenomenon: "The proposed draft ruling would hold that an AR15 type rifle in combination with an M16 hammer, trigger, disconnector, selector and bolt carrier is a combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled and is a machine gun if such rifle and parts are in the possession or under control of a person. It would also hold that an AR15 type rifle in combination with any M16 part or parts (whether assembled or unassembled) which, when assembled, shoots automatically by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector is also a machine gun. "The Bureau has determined not to issue the ruling at this time...." Reproduced in footnote 10, U.S. v. Staples, 971 F.2d 608 (CA10 1992), reversed on other grounds, 511 U.S. 600 (1994). Rather than issue a formal ruling to this effect, and endanger the "logic" of ATF Ruling 81-4, by acknowledging that the drop-in auto sear can only really work to convert a firearm ATF also considers to be a machine gun, ATF instead released this "open letter" from Stephen E. Higgins, then director of ATF. The open letter was printed in the fall, 1986, Federal Firearm Licensee News publication. An edited version of this letter can be found in the ATF "Yellow Book", "Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide", ATF P 5300.4 (10-95) at page 91: From Bardwell's site - see my post on page 15. |
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I know this post is a few years old but I found myself laughing uncontrollably from the highlighted portion! I have a box of hammer springs as spares. As per his statement I have like 20 machineguns if a hammer spring is an M16? My AR bought in 1996 from Armalite came with a M16 bolt carrier. My old shooting buddies LMT came with a M16 bolt carrier. EVERY manufacturer I called has said they would sell me an M16 bolt carrier if I had the money, if I wanted to buy the conversion kit(or all the parts to convert and AR to a M16) I needed to send them my F4 for a RR or my SOT. But everyone would sell the carrier. I have been thinking about installing a few M16 carriers in my AR SBR upper so I can shoot them on my friends M16. Thanks for the sound advice Steve-In-VA. -TS |
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Well - I did it - I finally finished reading this entire thread and all it's (many) associated links...
FALARAK I think said it best when he stated that he preferred suicide to any further ressurection of this topic. It's taken me HOURS (wading through trolls, tags, repeated-posts, mis-quotes, insults, and off-topic comments and querries) only to realize that this post's two main topics: -Uses for the M16 carrier-, and -The legality of the carriers' SOLITARY component use- were answered back within the first five pages... I realize that it will take an act of Congress for the second topic to ever finally meet the grave, But might I at least recommend that this thread be locked till then (so as to prevent any further dilution (and further constipation) of this thread and it's afore-mentioned topics? Please Steve...Lock this thread to save the time (and sanity) of future readers. Thank you. |
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While I appreciate where you are coming from, I think I'll leave it unlocked. |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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Had to try... and Thank's again - (for staying on top of things...among other reasons ) BTW - Did the BATFE ever respond (difinatively or otherwise) to your Second Letter? If they did - I somehow missed it... Thanks again, Mike |
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Someone with a manuf. license send one to the tech branch with a 16 carrier in it and ask for a letter to see if it is or is not a machine gun. Letter should be good for a least a couple days when it comes back before they change their minds either way.
Every time I look at my open bolt semi Mac in the safe I realize something can be two things at once depending on the day it was made. |
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I cannot remember. I kinda forgot about it especially in light of the Chen letter. Steve |
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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If it had all the parts (which would be a combination of parts to convert) or if it fired FA with any of the parts installed then it would be an unregistered MG. ATF has recommended that you don't put any of the FA parts in a gun that originally was made with SA parts so there wouldn't be any "misunderstandings." |
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At that point it was just a lower. But I stripped the parts at once and sold it later anyway. Better safe than sorry. |
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Where did you get the pink stuff on your girls weapon? I have a 15 month old girl and want to build her one.
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I'm a dealer for Cavalry Arms, but they're currently not producing pink. I have red, blue, yellow, coyote brown, OD, black and purple, though. |
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I just needed to cap off getting through this entire thread... ugh.
Oh, and for anyone who just jumps to the end... [SPOILER ALERT] It is LEGAL, but there isn't any particularly grand reason to go out and buy one to put in your AR. I feel like I just spoiled the ending of the latest Harry Potter book. |
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There is a grand reason for some shooters. Increased reliability. When your life could be on the line, and for some sport shooters - that seems plenty grand to me.
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Visit the ALASKA FORUM on ARF at http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=43
"This topic obviously hit a nerve among the folks out there. No one has uttered the esteemed Arfcom cheer: Get both." - Amicus |
Wow this was a long one. Thanks Steve for your info!
I think anyone that posts anything other than NEW documentation or law should be majorly chastised. I have seen the same crap repeated fifty times by people that did not read the entire thread first. I think now we can all agree: 1. This thread is only about 1 topic: Is it legal to install a M16 Bolt Carrier (with absolutely no other M16 parts) in an AR15? This is NOT a topic about LL, DIAS or any other parts. dont even mention them because they are off the subject! It is NOT about conversions or anything else! 2. Installing a M16 Bolt Carrier into an AR15 is technically legal and there is no specific citing of law that says otherwise. 3. Installation of a M16 Bolt Carrier into an AR15 is not RECOMMENDED by BATF, but is also not illegal 4. Each individual has their own right to decide weather or not they need one, or should put one in their AR15. 5. Steve-in-VA was accurate in his statements. technically legal...not advisable. SWIM AT YOUR OWN RISK! Also... I had inadvertantly started a thread with the same topic (not knowing this novel existed) here: M16 Bolt Carrier in an AR15????? you can read it if you like but i think all new posts should stay here. im goin to bed...it was a long read to get here. |
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Wow... restating the obvious. And by the way, it is either legal or not. There is no "technically". The written law clearly does not make it illegal to use a M16 bolt carrier, or other M-16 parts, in the AR-15, so long as it only fires once per pull of the trigger. |
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Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights
Get up, stand up, don't give up the fight - Bob Marley |
Hey I agree! As per the law is written it is legal! I put "technically" to emphasize the fact that even though it is legal, it is STILL subject to interpretation by law enforcement and legislative parties.
cmon Hydguy! Please dont look to pick apart my statement for no other reason than to keep this thread going. I beleive that I have stated pretty simply (and yet eloquently) the facts on this issue where I believe that we can all agree on. Remember that all laws have been subject to interpretation to not only the literal wording but also the "spirit of the law" and I believe that all of the attorneys on here should agree on that. Besides the absence of a law is very different from a specific exclusion from the law. Now lets keep this thread just factual in the future. ie: Documents, Facts, new legal updates... It is already too long to sift through the gossip and petty differences just to read some facts. PLEASE ONLY POST IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING NEW TO BRING TO LIGHT ON THIS TOPIC.
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Those who live in glass houses..... |
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Isaiah 16:11 "Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp..."
thebeekeeper1: "We don't allow any kind of generalized bashing--except against the French." Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet. |
ok so i threw a few stones... but you have to admit I am right. How can we get my statment to a vote? can there be a voting thread or can someone respond here weather they agree with me?
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What have you said that hasn't been said in the prior 17 pages? I really don't see a point in a vote. No one's vote counts. The only thing that matters is if more than one round is fired per operation of the trigger. |
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Isaiah 16:11 "Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp..."
thebeekeeper1: "We don't allow any kind of generalized bashing--except against the French." Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet. |
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They are all animated.... because they have really long necks....
It doesnt kick, it just has bad recoil..... |
I now have 4 sets of pink available--carbine, M4 and rifle. |
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I was summarizing for all of the lazy S#1theads that wont read the entire 18 pgs. I then stated that GOING FORWARD from that post it should be topical. There (since your site emails are blocked) now you have made me make another post to respond to your comment and getting off the subject. Damn I hate being provoked! ha ha Can you please stop bugging me? I always want the last word. |
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What if you don't get it? |
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How about I have the last word and we stop using this thread as a playground?
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"So remember kids, playing Hitler in school, isn't cool"
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Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights
Get up, stand up, don't give up the fight - Bob Marley |
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