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Posted: 4/8/2024 7:28:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Andrapos]
Link Posted: 4/8/2024 8:03:41 AM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 4/8/2024 8:43:37 AM EDT
[#2]
Very cool op.
Link Posted: 4/8/2024 8:57:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: LittleAugieMo] [#3]
Nice old pocket watch and great heirloom. Photos of stamping on inside of cover showing stampings are blurry. But case is probably "gold filled" as a solid gold case wouldn't wear well.
Link Posted: 4/8/2024 9:41:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Andrapos] [#4]
Link Posted: 4/8/2024 9:57:14 AM EDT
[#5]
Very cool watch/gift

Got to like the photo with the colt.
Link Posted: 4/8/2024 11:59:39 AM EDT
[#6]
I got handed down my great-great-grandmothers similar to that but smaller version. Sold it. Didn't know her and didn't have any emotional attachment to it.
Link Posted: 4/8/2024 1:37:15 PM EDT
[#7]
The Elk's tooth watch fob is great.
Link Posted: 4/8/2024 2:27:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: pctech] [#8]
Beautiful watch! What a great family heirloom.

Antique pocket watch enthusiast here, although I haven't been very active in the hobby for the past few years. Kind of want to get back into it.

I agree that the case does appear to be solid 14k gold based on the markings. It's a bit of an anomaly considering that the watch movement itself is only a mid-grade 15 jewel model. Most of the time when you find a solid gold case it usually contains a high end 19-23 jewel movement, but of course there are always exceptions. In the 1800s and early 1900s most pocket watches did not come cased from the factory - instead you picked out the case you wanted and the brand and grade of movement you wanted in it and the local watchmaker assembled it for you.

There aren't a ton of solid gold cases left anymore -- with gold prices so high many have been melted down for scrap and their movements thrown in the trash.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about servicing it unless you plan to run it a lot. If you decide to have it serviced, consider sending it to someone who specializes in antique pocket watches. You can probably get suggestions by asking here or over on the nawcc forums.

ETA: Just wanted to add that as far as monetary value goes, if it is indeed a solid 14k gold case, the watch is basically worth the scrap value of the gold, maybe very slightly more. If the case is gold filled, it's a $150 - $200 watch. Just because something is  old doesn't mean that it's highly valuable.

As a beautiful family heirloom, it's priceless.
Link Posted: 4/8/2024 4:35:02 PM EDT
[#9]
Link Posted: 4/8/2024 7:02:33 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Andrapos:



Thanks!  Yes, not everything old is valuable, that's for sure.  Everything is stamped 14k, the chain, the clasps, the locket, and the BPOE mount.  With google lens I have found one identical chain listed online, and several similar ones (there is currently one on ebay with an insane price).  Beyond that initial curiosity I'm not concerned with the scrap value of the gold, my son is named after my great-grandfather to whom who the watch belonged.  It will be nice to gift it for him someday, should he want it.

If the age of the case could be somewhat accurately determined, that might shed light on the movement.  There is some damage to the main case edge where someone did some prying, so it is possible that the movement was replaced and a less expensive one installed.  Of course, my family was never very wealthy, so it could be that my great-grandfather bought the most expensive case & chain he could afford, and saved some pennies on the movement.
View Quote


@Andrapos

You're very welcome. That is really neat about your son being named after your great grandfather, the original owner of the watch. Hopefully he will appreciate the watch some day!

Unfortunately it's pretty difficult to determine when a specific pocket watch case was manufactured since there just aren't very many historical records to reference regarding cases. With watch movements the records are much better and you can often cross reference the serial number with one of several databases to learn details of the movement and the estimated production year. (It sounds like you did this, which is how you dated the movement to 1921.) With pocket watch cases about the best you can do most of the time is to try to find digitized catalogs from the case manufacturer and learn when different case designs were available.

It's very possible that your great-grandfather simply decided to spend more of his budget on the solid gold case (and solid gold chain/clasps/locket/etc) and then went with a slightly more modest but still very reliable/serviceable mid-grade Elgin movement. Many people did just that. Of course, I've also seen the exact opposite, high end movements in very basic nickel cases. I guess it all depended on a persons priorities at the time.  I also don't see any obvious signs that another movement was ever in that case -- usually you'll see additional screw marks around the inside lip of the case where a different movement had been mounted previously, since the location of the mounting screws varied from one model/brand of movement to the next.  

Btw, I did a little bit of searching and it looks like the retail price of that Elgin 16s Grade 312 movement was $14.00 in 1907. It doesn't sound like much to us, but that was 1907 dollars!
Attachment Attached File


Finally, you mentioned some damage to the case from prying... If you're referring to the scratches/scuff marks along the back edge of the case (picture #2), this is very normal and not really considered "damage". Only the front case was spring loaded, so people often used a case opening tool (basically a small knife/blade) to pry open the back cover(s) to gain access to the movement. Nearly every antique pocket watch out there is going to show some normal wear/scratches in that area. Just FYI.

Hope this is helpful!

Link Posted: 4/9/2024 3:20:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Andrapos] [#11]
Link Posted: 4/9/2024 11:55:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Andrapos:

@pctech Thanks again!  

Well, after a good looking over I found more "stuff" - like a date!

Inside the movement cover is some writing scratched in the gold followed by 12335 which would either be a jeweler's code or a date  (1-23-35 or 12-3-35, spacing leads me to believe the latter if it's a date).  Are those likely initials of a repair person, or an abbreviation for the work done?

Also, the rim is stamped 2988 alongside the movement.  I believe this is simply the last four numbers of the serial, but in reverse.

Finally, it appears that there were at least 2 screws in different positions against the inner edge, from a different movement being installed.  I wonder if something else might become visible if the movement were removed (I'm not attempting that).

Whew!

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/166952/Date_12-3-35-3183328.jpg

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/166952/2988-3183329.jpg

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/166952/2-3183330.jpg

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/166952/3-3183331.jpg
View Quote


@Andrapos

I'm always glad to help. In fact, all of this talk about your family pocket watch motivated me to get several of my own pocket watches out of the storage case today to handle and enjoy!

So, you did indeed find out some additional things about your watch!

From those updated pictures it does look like that case has had two different movements installed in it during its lifetime. It's possible that your great-grandfather had to have the original movement replaced at some point. Or, although less likely, it's also possible that he bought the gold case (and maybe accessories?) used and had that new Elgin movement installed in it. The possibilities are endless and there really isn't any way to ever know for sure. To answer your question, I don't think you would learn anything further by removing the movement from the case.

The 2988 stamping is the last 4 digits of the case serial number (in reverse). Many case manufacturers would stamp multiple case parts with the S/N during manufacturing so that the parts could be kept together throughout the manufacturing process. I've seen similar things done with gun manufacturing so that already fitted parts don't become separated during other stages of the manufacturing process.

The writing/marks you found inside the case cover are indeed jewelers marks. Every jeweler had his own method, but it was not uncommon for a jeweler to scribble his initials as well as the date inside the cover when he would service the watch or make a repair. The mark you found is probably his initials from a cleaning on 12-3-35. Some jewelers would also leave greatly abbreviated notes about repair work, but it was never intended to be deciphered by anyone but themselves.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 2:58:23 PM EDT
[#13]
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