Please abide by the rules.

No trolling

No degrading remarks about *anything*

No insincere questions.

Listen to the little voice that says:"don't post that".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit...

It's best to start by experiencing and observing. Monks play a very important role in Church tradition, so that's a good place to start

A story told by a monk at Mt Athos Monk's Republic in Greece.

Athos - Mount Athos Monk's Republic Documentary

Greek-Orthodox: Monastery Of St.Catherien, Sinai (Egypt)

Infant baptism. Adults receive 3 full immersions as well.

"A Protestant With Tons of Questions Visits a Beautiful Orthodox Church"

"...You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Some Christians throughout history have interpreted this passage to mean that no religious images or visual art are allowed by God. In fact, the Church struggled with this issue throughout the eighth and ninth centuries finally defeating iconoclasm and upholding the use of icons in worship, a day we celebrate every year on the Triumph of Orthodoxy. The Church made clear the position of images in the worship of the Church and their relationship to the second commandment:..."

The full article

This was the most helpful for me, a Catholic raised attendee of a MS Lutheran Church.  

Thank you for posting.  There’s an Orthodox Church a few miles away from my current church.  I might arrange a visit.

If I wasn't Protestant, I would be Orthodox.

Glory to God.

Thank you for the feedback, it is very helpful.

Question about theosis as im reading “The Orthodox Church” by Timothy Ware.
The concept is not foreign to the Catholic west and I agree with the Bishop that deification is not a good English translation.

So anyhoo, the author states (and I hope I’m not mis stating his position) that the goal of the Christian is to achieve theosis AND that’s it’s possible during one’s life.  This strikes me almost as form of Palagianism.  The goal yes, the ability? Impossible.  

Is that the case or was I misunderstanding theosis at 1130 at night?  :)

Eta: just avoid any possible confusion, I understand the EO view of YHWH’s essence vs His energies.  It just seems to me that no man can unite with the perfection of El Shaddai’s energy while still an imperfect vessel.

"What was it like to be an early Christian?
At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles and they were empowered to spread the Word to all nations. Now, to do this was a dangerous task. The Jewish Priests had just killed God himself. In the early days after the feast of Pentecost the Jews were showing a prejudice against the Christians by not providing the widows with their normal food distribution. The Christians then appointed deacons to help these widows and others in need of help. Saint Stephen was outstanding in fulfilling these duties and some Jews began to accuse Stephen of speaking blasphemy and stirring up many people. He was brought to the council and accused of saying “blasphemous words against Moses and God.” Stephen’s response angered them so much that they threw him out of the city and began to stone him. They stoned him until he was dead. So, from the earliest days of the Church the risks of being a Christian, a believer in the story told in the Gospel, brought with it the risk of unfair treatment and even death. But, there was a reason for this..."

"How was the Early Church Organized?
As Christianity spread the Apostles had to come up with a way to administer the Churches. The natural organization was to follow the political division then in place as part of the Roman government..."

"...The Church was seen as a local community. A community of believers who had to work together and learn to love one anther. They were close knit groups who regularly came together to participate in the eucharist. Their purpose was worship and to support each other in living in the example of Christ. It was a local church, yet it was always the fulness of the Church. Each gathering was a gathering of the whole Church.

The Church is universal with one Episcopate. There are many churches, but only one Church. It is never divided. There May be many bishops, but again there is only one episcopate.
In the Orthodox Church today there are bishops, presbyters, deacons and the lay persons of the congregation. The organization is the same as it was established by the Apostles."

https://stgeorgegreenville.org/our-faith/catechism/church-history/early-church

___________

In catechism (using simple terms) I was taught the Church as a whole can be seen as one living organism.

In one book study we came across this:

"The Church is without beginning, without end and eternal, just as the Triune God, her founder, is without beginning, without end and eternal. She is uncreated just as God is uncreated. She existed before the ages, before the angels, before the creation of the world-before the foundation of the world as the Apostle Paul says. She is a divine institution and in her dwells the whole fullness of divinity. She is an expression of the richly varied wisdom of God. She is the mystery of mysteries. She was concealed and revealed in the last of times. The Church remains unshaken because she is rooted in the love and wise Providence of God."

Eph. 1:4 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence.

Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form

1 Peter 1:20 He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake


From the book "Wounded by Love: The Life and the Wisdom of Saint Porphyrios"

"The three persons of the Holy Trinity constitute the eternal Church" - St. Porphyrios

Here we go; down the rabbit hole.
I only just now poured my second cup of coffee.

We covered God's Essence and Energies in catechism and it was quite a show. That was the first exposure any of us had. This is where we really start to dig into the Mystery of God. We must approach this with reverence and caution. We need to recognize when to stop. The important thing is to gain enough understanding to 'believe' through both  our reasoning mind, and our spiritual mind.

We can't commit if we don't believe.

Prior to coming back to the Church, I was drawn to the Native American faith because of the mysteries, so 'belief' and 'trust' is not a problem for me in the mystical aspect of the Church. At first I was somewhat surprised to learn that St. Herman of Alaska, the man who introduced the Orthodox faith to North America, had no problem bringing the Aleut people into the faith, but now it makes sense.

I'm currently reading "Acquiring the Mind of Christ: Embracing the Vision of the Orthodox Church." by Archimandrite Sergius Bowyer.  

Next up is the classic "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church" by Vladimir Lossky

I'm relatively young in this journey, so forgive me as this may take a little time to address concerns, and make sense out of it. I will use both those books, and more as needed.

Behold what manner of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God. And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him. Beloved, we are now children of God, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as Christ is pure.

1 John 3:1-3

No worries, my friend.  

I’m strongly considering emailing the local EO church and making a visit in order to pester the staff  with my questions.

The Church is here if you ever feel the need for her.

I recommend emailing the parish and letting them know of your interest, and that you would like to attend a service. Save questions for after the first service, at the very least.

Attending services first is always recommended, and there are reasons for that. I'll give you some unofficial and unwritten reasons why this is so.

Let me tell you my experience. I emailed the parish and let them know I am interested in attending a service. Ok, great, and they made sure I had knew where to find the schedule and to show up for any service.

Keep in mind this was my first visit to any Church in decades, and I had never even been inside a EO or RC Church.

That said, I had participated in sweat lodges, so I knew something about mysticism, and the value of physical discomfort experienced during worship.

At the time this parish had no priest! The laity kept things moving by holding Vespers services until the archdiocese found us a priest.

On my first visit, even before the service started, I knew this was "it". The Holy Spirit was at work here. I 'sensed' Him. The visuals, the scent, the 'feeling in the room'. Everything contributed.

With my lack of experience, attending a Vespers was most appropriate for several weeks. I was just soaking it in and learning slowly along the way. Things ramped up to a different experiential level when a visiting priest showed up one Sunday to serve a Divine Liturgy. Blown away is an understatement.

Attending EOC services is physically, mentally, and spiritually challenging enough for most newcomers without attending a Divine Liturgy or going into the theological aspects of the Church. Everything I've read and heard points to observing and experiencing the services first.

YMMV according to your level of experience in certain other faiths.

Theosis is possible.

Pelagianism states that man can attain deification on his own, without the help of God. Both East and West ancient churches declared that to be heresy. In Orthodoxy, we work with God and He with us in our spiritual journey, always.

Here's a good breakdown of Theosis in the EOC.

I said, “You are gods,

And all of you are children of the Most High.” (Psalm 82:6)

This is a verse that most Protestants do not underline in their Bibles. What on earth does it mean—“you are gods”? Doesn’t our faith teach that there is only one God, in three Persons? How can human beings be gods?

In the Orthodox Church, this concept is neither new nor startling. It even has a name: theosis. Theosis is the understanding that human beings can have real union with God, and so become like God to such a degree that we participate in the divine nature. Also referred to as deification, divinization, or illumination, it is a concept derived from the New Testament regarding the goal of our relationship with the Triune God. (Theosis and deification may be used interchangeably. We will avoid the term divinization, since it could be misread for divination, which is another thing altogether!)

Many Protestants, and even some Roman Catholics, might find the Orthodox concept of theosis unnerving. Especially when they read a quote such as this one from St. Athanasius: “God became man so that men might become gods,” they immediately fear an influence of Eastern mysticism from Hinduism or pantheism..."

http://ww1.antiochian.org/content/theosis-partaking-divine-nature

Thank you for responding.  I’ll give the link a read when I have time to give it the proper attention.

This talk concerning God's Essence and  Energies is a reminder of a book I have on Kindle. This is pretty far off the wall in some ways, even for the EOC. I'll post the table of contents. Let me know if anything interests you and we'll check it out. I got a couple chapters in and found the reading above my pay grade, so I put it down.

LIVE 2022.08.20. 10th Sunday after Pentecost. Vigil. (in English and Church-Slavonic)
Russian Orthodox Cathedral of St John the Baptist in Washington, DC

Have you ever met Fr Philip Kontos?  His home parish is in Florida, but he visits others sometimes...

He has a similar story and spent a lot of time with Native Americans prior to converting.  He has a lot of awesome stories about this (including sweat lodges and stuff).

I have not met him. When I was new in the Church, people were curious about my history in religion. When I mentioned the NA stuff they smiled. It's not unusual. I should have asked the NA's I practiced with about their Christianity as several were wearing crosses! At the time I just didn't feel the pull back to the Church.

Ok you got me; I emailed the EO church for a tour.

Glory to God!

Lord Bless you.

Orthodox calendar with lives of the saints, icons, troparions and kontakions. Daily Scripture readings. Feasts, fast days, days of remembrance. Julian Version ("Old Calendar"). English and Russian. Click on the red highlights to open those bits.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.holytrinityorthodox.orthodoxcalendar&hl=en_US&gl=US


Screenshot of today's stuff:

Do you attend a ROCOR parish?  Just curious about the old calendar usage.

Archbishop Dmitry told me "We Orthodox were the original protestants."   True when you think about it.

Serbian Diocese of Western America

LIVE- Hours and Divine Liturgy, August 21st, 2022 St. Tikhon's Monastery in PA.

Scripture readings for 8-21-22

This is a great interview.

A DEEP DIVE into Orthodox Theology (w/ Fr. Peter Heers)

If I wasn’t a Baptist I would be EO. Mostly because I enjoy having an unruly beard  which seems to cause offense to some of the more holier than thou brethren. But seriously though it’s not too different when you get down to it.

If OP doesn’t mind( if he does I’ll delete it) I’d like to contribute the following from Panayiotis Papageorgiou who is an excellent source for understanding Orthodox theology in a very articulate and clear manner. His channel has pretty good content. Here is a playlist with some good videos on orthodox theology. Playlist










Different guy but this subject matters to a lot of Protestants.

Table of Contents

Step 1 - On Renunciation
Step 2 - On Detachment
Step 3 - On Banishment or Living as a Stranger
Step 4 - On Obedience
Step 5 - On Painful and Genuine Repentance Which is the Life of Godly Convicts, and Concerning the Prison
Step 6 - On the Remembrance of Death
Step 7 - On Lamentation Which Brings About Joy
Step 8 - On Liberty From Anger and Humility
Step 9 - On the Remembrance of Injuries
Step 10 - On Defamation or Slander
Step 11 - On Loquaciousness and Stillness
Step 12 - On Lying
Step 13 - On Despondency
Step 14 - On the Boisterous, yet Evil Lord, the Belly.
Step 15 - On Incorruptible Chastity and Purity Which the Corruptible Achieve Through Labor and Perspiration
Step 16 - On the Love of Money or Greed
Step 17 - On Poverty
Step 18 - On Apathy, which is, the Death of the Soul and Mind before the Death of the Body
Step 19 - On Sleep, Prayer, and Psalmody in Church
Step 20 - On Bodily Vigil - How to use it to Achieve Spiritual Vigil and how to Exercise it
Step 21 - On Immature and Childish Faint-heartedness
Step 22 - On the Manifold Nature of Vainglory
Step 23a - On Absurd Pride and also on Polluted Profane Thoughts
Step 23b - About Unspeakable Blasphemous Thoughts
Step 24 - On being meek, simple and honest which does not come from nature but from regular practice, and  
      about ill-will
Step 25 - On superb humility, the ruiner of the passions, which is grounded in spiritual feeling
Step 26a - On Discrimination of thoughts, passions and virtues
Step 26b - Concerning Skilled Discernment
Step 27 - On Blessed Stillness of Body and Soul
Step 28 - On holy, divine prayer, the mother of virtues, and on the deposition of the mind and body in prayer
Step 29 - About heaven on earth, divine dispassion and perfection, and the resurrection of the soul before the
             general resurrection
Step 30 - On the joining together of the ultimate trinity of the virtues

                                              Step 1 - On Renunciation

"When writing to the servants of God it is best to begin with God himself. Our God and King is indeed good, supremely good, and all good. Of the intelligent creatures made by Him and glorified with the honor of free-will, some are friends of Him, while others are truly His servants, still others are worthless, and others are completely separated from God. Still others, although they are mere creatures are counted as His opponents. When we say friends of God, holy father, we mean people, who surround God as intellectual and incorporeal beings. As for the worthless servants, we speak of those who after receiving baptism have not kept the oaths they made before God. By those who are separated from God, we imply the heretics and unbelievers. Lastly, by adversaries of God we mean those who have rejected and fled from the commandments of the Lord and who wage a terrible war on those who wish to fulfill it...."
End of first paragraph

The two faiths are radically different in Church history, tradition and doctrine.

Forgive me.

Eastern Orthodoxy is not reformed.

The Triune God, the apostles through the ages, Church doctrine and tradition, Scripture, the clergy and laypersons of the Church from the beginning; all are inseparable and form one living organism.

The last video I posted is worth the watch: A DEEP DIVE into Orthodox Theology (w/ Fr. Peter Heers).

He explains the Church as good or better than I've heard previously.

The anecdote of the mirror.  

The Tonsure of Makrina the Nun

Psalm 50(51)
Have mercy upon me, O God,
According to Your lovingkindness;
According to the multitude of Your tender mercies,
Blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin.

For I acknowledge my transgressions,
And my sin is always before me.
Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight—
That You may be found just when You speak,
And blameless when You judge.

Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.

Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Make me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
Hide Your face from my sins,
And blot out all my iniquities.

Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners shall be converted to You.

Deliver me from the guilt of bloodshed, O God,
The God of my salvation,
And my tongue shall sing aloud of Your righteousness.
O Lord, open my lips,
And my mouth shall show forth Your praise.
For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.

Do good in Your good pleasure to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
Then You shall be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
With burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then they shall offer bulls on Your altar.

2 Corinthians 2:14-3:3
Now thanks be to God who always leads us in triumph in Christ, and through us diffuses the fragrance of His knowledge in every place. For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ. Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

Nun Vera, A Day In Life

Watched the whole thing today.  Good stuff although I’m always surprised at how non-Catholics misunderstand papal infallibility but that’s not really here nor there.

Papal infallibility is complicated so I trust the RC brothers in this forum when they say it's not as big a deal as many make it out to be. I believe them 100%. I'm just thankful we don't have a pope, or any kind of central authority assigned to man.

I really like the orthodox “first amongst equals” concept as it recognizes the importance and legacy of  Simon Peter but doesn’t grant the Bishop of Rome supreme authority (which technically the magisterium has anyways)

ETA: I really really liked the part where the priest explained how lived experience within the church is part of the foundation of truth vs the academic theologians that tend to inhabit the west.

Yes, yes, YES! It's been a little more than a year and I'm just now really beginning to appreciate the importance of this.

2 Corinthians 3:4-11

And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

...and to what extent is Orthodoxy just recognizing that lived experience is a source of truth for everyone, even those outside the church?  For example, lived experience can actually be something that leads people to the church (or even keeps people away).

Sounds like it has a very good chance of turning into a philosophical wild goose chase that could stray outside the bounds of this thread.

That might be a good separate thread topic relating to religion in general, though.

NONE CAN RUN FROM SPIRITUAL WARFARE

Journey to Heaven | The life of an Orthodox Monastery (Subtitles in 13 Languages)