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Posted: 4/22/2024 9:27:47 PM EDT
So, this is an interesting puzzle .........
I have a SawStop PCS 1.75. Purchased within the last 3 months. I installed a new Diablo 50t TC MultiPurpose blade and have ran a couple small projects through it. Just a few day ago I noticed an increased vibration in the saw. This is something that was not there before, and to me, is quite noticeable. I installed the factory 40t FC blade and the vibration went away. Easy I thought, the Diablo blade is somehow defective. So I went and purchased a Freud 50t MP blade and the vibration is still there. As a comparison, I installed the factory blade and no issues. ........ I did do the "nickel" test and both the Freud and Diablo failed. The factory blade passed and the saw runs smooth as glass with the factory 40t blade. So tomorrow, I am going to grab the Titanium SawStop blade and see how that goes. But my thought / question is why would the Freud / Diablo run with vibration but the SawStop is super smooth? The saw it level and stable. All bolts are checked and tight. Calling the the manufacturer, they say the issue is the blade (and this could be). I am just confused why new some blades have this vibration and the basic factory blade does not? |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 9:44:04 PM EDT
[#1]
Are the blades installed correctly, and are they correct for that arbor? If the blade is not centered on the arbor, that'd make it vibrate when you spun it up.
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Posted: 4/22/2024 9:50:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ropwoo]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By giantpune: Are the blades installed correctly, and are they correct for that arbor? If the blade is not centered on the arbor, that'd make it vibrate when you spun it up. Tomorrow will tell as I will exchange the Freud for a SawStop Titanium blade. But even if this works, why can't I get performance from other manufacturers blades? |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 10:09:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ske714]
[#3]
Did you lose the carbide off of a tooth?
Never mind. Two blades. |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 10:15:37 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ske714: Did you lose the carbide off of a tooth? Never mind. Two blades. |
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CT, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 10:22:58 PM EDT
[#5]
How would you compare the cores of all blades? Is the oem thicker, thinner. Teeth, gullet size, etc. Maybe the sawstops prefer a certain CG, etc?
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Posted: 4/22/2024 10:26:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: wildearp]
[#6]
Change your belt. Just do it.
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Posted: 4/23/2024 12:08:47 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wildearp: Change your belt. Just do it. Even SawStop thought it odd the belt broke within 30 days of use, but we all figured it was just a bad belt. So to your point, the belt is new. But certainly a component in this journy. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 12:16:04 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By User55645: How would you compare the cores of all blades? Is the oem thicker, thinner. Teeth, gullet size, etc. Maybe the sawstops prefer a certain CG, etc? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 12:32:45 AM EDT
[#9]
bet they sell a lot more OEM blades
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Posted: 4/23/2024 12:47:14 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By terry_tr6: bet they sell a lot more OEM blades Could be.  I just want the saw to run at optimal performance. If the OEM blade does that, fine. They are not the much more than premium Freud blades. But I feel like my saw should run vibration free with any premium blade. Now I am also very particular and a bit AR since I am an engineer by trade. I have measured run out, etc with two separate gauges. my "common" test now is the balanced nickel test. Tomorrow, I will purchase a premium OEM blade and see what happens. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 12:58:17 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ropwoo: Could be. I just want the saw to run at optimal performance. If the OEM blade does that, fine. They are not the much more than premium Freud blades. But I feel like my saw should run vibration free with any premium blade. Now I am also very particular and a bit AR since I am an engineer by trade. I have measured run out, etc with two separate gauges. my "common" test now is the balanced nickel test. Tomorrow, I will purchase a premium OEM blade and see what happens. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ropwoo: Originally Posted By terry_tr6: bet they sell a lot more OEM blades Could be. I just want the saw to run at optimal performance. If the OEM blade does that, fine. They are not the much more than premium Freud blades. But I feel like my saw should run vibration free with any premium blade. Now I am also very particular and a bit AR since I am an engineer by trade. I have measured run out, etc with two separate gauges. my "common" test now is the balanced nickel test. Tomorrow, I will purchase a premium OEM blade and see what happens. If you know someone with another premium saw; I would try those blades on another saw. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 1:05:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ropwoo]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GrumpyinStL: If you know someone with another premium saw; I would try those blades on another saw. Welcome to my my hell.
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MO, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 7:30:08 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ropwoo: Again the conundrum, Rockler put my "bad" blade on one of their saws and it ran fine. so it is odd that my TS runs with vibration using the same blade, nut the OEM blade is without vibration. Welcome to my my hell. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ropwoo: Originally Posted By GrumpyinStL: If you know someone with another premium saw; I would try those blades on another saw. Welcome to my my hell. Hmm, system resonance that could be emergent from contributions of the physical characteristics of both both components, but the fault of neither? You could try a damping shim on the arbor nut and see if you can change the dynamic and move the resonant frequency outside the range of operational speed. This could be a case of tolerance stacking that affects the system performance without either item being OOS. Sample set is small; but your next manufacturer blade could have same problem; or a different outside manufacturer blade could run fine. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 3:35:13 PM EDT
[#14]
Update: I purchased the new SawStop 40t Titanium blade and installed it. The saw runs without vibration just as it does with the factory 40t Combo blade.
At this point I am happy the vibration is gone, but I still have no answer why the Diablo & Freud 50t combo blades both have a vibration problem. I even tried a 80t Diablo blade and it had the same vibration, but a 24t Diablo rip blade does not. Just a huge mystery I guess I will never have an answer for. 
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Posted: 4/23/2024 3:47:53 PM EDT
[#15]
I have a 10+ year old Rigid. The flange has a slight amount of runout. I also noticed that most blades have some also, so I marked the flange and all my blades. When I line up the + & - marks the blades run tru-er. But I haven't noticed any vibration. Your saw wasn't a demo that experienced an event or two was it?
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Posted: 4/23/2024 4:31:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Try Ridge Carbide Blades if you want something premium.
My SawStop has never had your issues but I’d blame the blades as well. Surprised with the Freud but not so much the Diablo. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 4:39:27 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wildearp: Change your belt. Just do it. Was going to suggest this. My tumbler belt held a memory bend in it. Vibration was pretty bad. I put a linked belt on it and it is good to go, no holding a memory anymore. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 5:08:59 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By wingsnthings: I have a 10+ year old Rigid. The flange has a slight amount of runout. I also noticed that most blades have some also, so I marked the flange and all my blades. When I line up the + & - marks the blades run tru-er. But I haven't noticed any vibration. Your saw wasn't a demo that experienced an event or two was it? I did go around and check the all bolts, screws, etc. were tight an found one one or two that needed tightening. But even this did not change things. It is just so odd that some blades run great and some have more vibration. I use the "nickel" test as my basis so at least I have a common referance. In my opinion any premium blade should sun without vibration, but I am also exceptionally picky / sensitive. 
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Posted: 4/23/2024 5:11:26 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By smashedminer: Was going to suggest this. My tumbler belt held a memory bend in it. Vibration was pretty bad. I put a linked belt on it and it is good to go, no holding a memory anymore. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By smashedminer: Originally Posted By wildearp: Change your belt. Just do it. Was going to suggest this. My tumbler belt held a memory bend in it. Vibration was pretty bad. I put a linked belt on it and it is good to go, no holding a memory anymore. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 5:22:42 PM EDT
[#20]
I would mic the blades... maybe the arbor nut won't quite tighten down completely on a thinner blade?
Seems that would be a widely known issue though. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 5:30:30 PM EDT
[#21]
Make sure every bolt is tight.
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Posted: 4/23/2024 7:08:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ske714: Make sure every bolt is tight. I have wondered if it is related to the pulley bearings, but then the factory blades are just fine. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 7:10:36 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midmo: I would mic the blades... maybe the arbor nut won't quite tighten down completely on a thinner blade? Seems that would be a widely known issue though. The issue is almost like a wheel that is out of balance. Thing is I am certain the Freud blades are balanced and built to a high standard. Thinking about contacting them to see if they have ever heard of this issue before. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 7:41:41 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ropwoo: So I did change the drive belt (motor to arbor) as the factory one broke within a month of light use. I have not changed the other belt since the saw is only ~3-months old. And again, it seems to be an issue with some blades, but not all. Have you checked the pulley alignment? That wouldn’t have a bearing on the blade issue but if a oem belt was that short lived it’s worth checking. The diablo blades, are they thin kerf? I wonder if the thinner saw blades aren’t getting fully clamped in place or your arbor is undersized and the blade is not centered on the arbor. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 10:50:04 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SteelonSteel: Have you checked the pulley alignment? That wouldn't have a bearing on the blade issue but if a oem belt was that short lived it's worth checking. The diablo blades, are they thin kerf? I wonder if the thinner saw blades aren't getting fully clamped in place or your arbor is undersized and the blade is not centered on the arbor. So it seems there is no immediate logic to the issue. Other than all SawStop brand ed blades tested run fine and some Diable blades run fine, but most Diablo / Freud blades do not. Crazy. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 5:36:09 AM EDT
[#26]
Did you weigh the blades? I wonder if the this kerf blades might be letting the motor over speed vs the OEM blades as a matter of mass in motion. It might be showing you an otherwise undetectable bearing weakness or perhaps rotor tolerance issue. It's probably perfectly within spec for OEM blades but not so much for the slightly oversped blades.
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Posted: 4/24/2024 4:16:30 PM EDT
[#27]
I plan on doing a full review of the saw by following all the initial assembly instructions. As I mentioned, I purchased it fully assembled, so I figure it won't hurt to go back through everything just to be sure nothing was overlooked. Should take a a few days to get it done, but I will report what if anything I find.
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Posted: 4/24/2024 4:28:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: jos51700]
[#28]
Check the bore diameter. If the newblades are even slightly oversized in the arbor hole, it's not running concentric. I'd even lay one of the new ones over the OE blade and use the ID teeth on a caliper to see if both can be gripped at the same time.
With it unplugged, I'd take a square, clean piece of wood against the fence, and spin the blade, and make sure that they're not running out of round. If you see one or a group of teeth approach the edge of your test wood before others, there you are. Feeler gauges help with this. With the prevalence of Chinesium in the blade market, I see it easy for the arbor diameter or the blade concentricity to be off. Remember, just because company Y makes a blade, doesn't mean that they make the blanks. Also, are the new blades painted? Old saw blades weren't painted, for a reason. If the paint buildup is uneven, the balance is uneven. I needed a non-Chinese 9" blade for God's First Table Saw (my vintage Craftsman), and it took some digging to find it. |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2024 12:14:46 PM EDT
[#29]
Originally Posted By ropwoo: Yes two separate blades. The only constant thing is the factory blade runs great, So the manufacturer is trying to help, but blames the blade. And I understand that, but I don't understand why other blades do not run smooth since the Freud are also very high quality. There is no such thing as a 'new' in the package Freud blade that is going to be so unbalanced as to make your saw run poorly just because of that alone. Not going to happen...  You have problems with the tool. (china bearings, china this, china that, etc.) I would bet that I am not the only guy around here that keeps several different 'beater blades' around for those times when they KNOW for a fact that they will be cutting really horrible stuff on their particular table saw. Blades that are too far gone to be worth a proper repair but still able to do just barely good enough to warrant saving for 'just in case' you need to cut something that you know has screws and nails in it. Even the ones that are really, really bad don't usually cause an otherwise good saw to start vibrating in a noticeable way. Did I mention China bearings??? Have been using these people for a long time for any and all blades that do not fall into the 'shit' category from the start - [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLsRarSwErQ[/video] |
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Posted: 4/29/2024 9:10:08 PM EDT
[#30]
Busy several days and I have not had a chance to get into the shop to re-evaluate the saw assembly.
The only thing I have noted is my "drive" belt might be very slightly looser than factory. So I still need to go through everything. Hopefully this week if time frees up. |
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Posted: 5/1/2024 6:36:45 AM EDT
[#31]
This may sound retarded but did you run the saw with no blade? That would help rule out the belts and pulleys.
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Posted: 5/2/2024 7:22:39 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jerret_S: This may sound retarded but did you run the saw with no blade? That would help rule out the belts and pulleys. |
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Posted: 5/2/2024 7:24:23 PM EDT
[#33]
So today I did get back out and checked, snugged every volt and screw I could find. I tightened the belt a little as well. Only ran the factory blade, but so far so good.
I will swap out to a Diablo or Freud blade this weekend and see if the issue is gone. Fingers crossed. |
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Posted: 5/5/2024 8:51:28 PM EDT
[#34]
I think we reached an end to this. The Diablo still had more vibration.
So my final interpretation is that the Diablo blade is somewhat out of balance. And the saw just presents this in a way that I can detect. (again I am an over-thinker, but the nickel test is somewhat of a metric). Sadly I returned the Freud blade so I can not test this again. For now, the SawStop blades run great and I will stick with them. They cut great and if they work, so be it. I wish I had found something more definitive, but I think the gremlins love to live in my shop and make my days harder.  Don't even get me started on the drum sander, but that is another topic.
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Posted: 5/6/2024 4:09:12 AM EDT
[#35]
I wanna hear about the drum sander...
My Jet 16-32 developed a maddening vibration. I re-wrapped the drum over and over, tried different paper, was looking into buying a replacement drum because I was starting to suspect this one had somehow gone out of round. Turned out that a dirt dauber had build a nice little mud hut between the vanes of the cooling fins at the end of the drum motor. 'Bout never figured that one out. |
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Posted: 5/6/2024 8:24:08 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midmo: I wanna hear about the drum sander... My Jet 16-32 developed a maddening vibration. I re-wrapped the drum over and over, tried different paper, was looking into buying a replacement drum because I was starting to suspect this one had somehow gone out of round. Turned out that a dirt dauber had build a nice little mud hut between the vanes of the cooling fins at the end of the drum motor. 'Bout never figured that one out. I keep fighting with the paper loosening up. I have gone through so many attempts and just recently went back to the retailer for a personal demonstration on how to wind the paper. The paper seems to get loose after only a few passes.I don't really see where my method was in error, but time will tell as I don't have any new projects in the works yet. I did follow the retailer recommended process, so fingers crossed. I know I will love it once I figure it all out. I also have this suspicion that all the shop gremlins like to live in my garage. Just trying to keep me on my toes I guess.
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MS, USA
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Posted: 5/6/2024 11:34:05 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ropwoo: I think we reached an end to this. The Diablo still had more vibration. So my final interpretation is that the Diablo blade is somewhat out of balance. And the saw just presents this in a way that I can detect. (again I am an over-thinker, but the nickel test is somewhat of a metric). Sadly I returned the Freud blade so I can not test this again. Not possible with a new Diablo blade (which is a Freud blade BTW) on any sort of proper saw. That thing is going to be so close to perfect (balance wise) straight out of the box that most crappy saws will run fine with it and any 'good' saw will run the same blade just fine (without greatly noticeable vibration) even if it is / has been abused / is missing teeth and such. You could easily bypass whatever sensor you needed to - to run it with no blade and find out for yourself... It is not unheard of to run heavier blades to get smoother cuts in a saw that a guy knows he has sloppy bearings in because he is too lazy to change them out or wants to squeak every bit of life possible out of them. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 5:32:49 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ropwoo: The drum sander is new, a SuperMax 19". I keep fighting with the paper loosening up. I have gone through so many attempts and just recently went back to the retailer for a personal demonstration on how to wind the paper. The paper seems to get loose after only a few passes.I don't really see where my method was in error, but time will tell as I don't have any new projects in the works yet. I did follow the retailer recommended process, so fingers crossed. I know I will love it once I figure it all out. I also have this suspicion that all the shop gremlins like to live in my garage. Just trying to keep me on my toes I guess.Oh, you will! Mine's one of my favorite tools in the shop. Are you using factory sanding strips? Cheapies can stretch when they get hot, loosening up on the drum. The only other real option is that one of the clamps are slipping. I don't know how the SuperMax loads paper, but I suspect they're all pretty much the same (SuperMax, PerforMax, Jet all in bed together on these sanders I think) - and a PITA to get clamped down good unless you've got chimpanzee fingers. You might mark where the clamp is gripping the paper on both ends, sand a few pieces and see if one or the other is slipping. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:08:33 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By midmo: Oh, you will! Mine's one of my favorite tools in the shop. Are you using factory sanding strips? Cheapies can stretch when they get hot, loosening up on the drum. The only other real option is that one of the clamps are slipping. I don't know how the SuperMax loads paper, but I suspect they're all pretty much the same (SuperMax, PerforMax, Jet all in bed together on these sanders I think) - and a PITA to get clamped down good unless you've got chimpanzee fingers. You might mark where the clamp is gripping the paper on both ends, sand a few pieces and see if one or the other is slipping. is what it is, but I have managed well so far.
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:15:33 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Aaron56: Not possible with a new Diablo blade (which is a Freud blade BTW) on any sort of proper saw. That thing is going to be so close to perfect (balance wise) straight out of the box that most crappy saws will run fine with it and any 'good' saw will run the same blade just fine (without greatly noticeable vibration) even if it is / has been abused / is missing teeth and such. You could easily bypass whatever sensor you needed to - to run it with no blade and find out for yourself... It is not unheard of to run heavier blades to get smoother cuts in a saw that a guy knows he has sloppy bearings in because he is too lazy to change them out or wants to squeak every bit of life possible out of them. I am not saying Freud blades are less, but my experience is what it is. Could be a tolerance issue? Or I am super sensitive? But the reality is the manufactures blades are smooth as glass and the 3rd party blades seem to induce more vibration. Everyone I speak to in the chain suggests bad blades. Just my situation I guess. |
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