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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:43:51 PM EDT
 History of WWI Primer 033: Arisaka Type 38 and 44 Carbines Documentary 140gr 6.5mm @ 2500fps Seems like they didn't like it and bumped up to the 7.7. Kinda ironic since we're all about that type of round now days like 100 years later. Personally I think a 140gr jsp would have fixed their complaints. I bet a sks stretched out a few mms in the 6.5 might of been cool too. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:48:34 PM EDT
[#1]
You get 5 shots...... Why not go heavier/more power?
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:49:55 PM EDT
[#2]
OP is probably right.
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:52:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jason280]
[#3]
JSP would have been a no-go in any diameter.
Eta: What seemed logistically nightmarish was not only 2 different rifle rounds for 2 very similar looking rifles, but yet another MG ammo that fit neither. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:53:00 PM EDT
[#4]
Originally Posted By 03RN:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enG6y1oQA8A140gr 6.5mm @ 2500fps Seems like they didn't like it and bumped up to the 7.7. Kinda ironic since we're all about that type of round now days like 100 years later. Personally I think a 140gr jsp would have fixed their complaints. I bet a sks stretched out a few mms in the 6.5 might of been cool too. Didn't they also have some ridiculous barrel lengths on some of those rifles? I vaguely remember tubes >30". Which considering the height of your average IJA soldier, looks ridiculous. OTOH, rechambered to .257, and bubba'd down to like 20-22", it was a handy little rifle. With a completely worthless safety. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:54:19 PM EDT
[#5]
They learned some stuff in Chyna and Manchuo-quo(Korea). It was "adequate", but I'd carry a T38 carbine in combat today and not feel terribly outgunned in caliber(and simplicity of the design, I own 6 of all 6.5 types including a original cavalry rifle). Today loaded ammo is very difficult to come by.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:56:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Seems like a number of countries fielding 6.5 rifles went bigger after using them in combat. I wonder why?
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:57:35 PM EDT
[#7]
Apparently it was fairly popular to rechamber Type 38s to 6.5x.257 Roberts. My late father-in-law had one. After months of searching I finally found dies for it and we reloaded 50 rounds of 120 grain Nosler ballistic tips. Never shot it for groups or chronoed the rounds. Fun enough at the machine gun shoot.
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:58:12 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mech4matsnova: Today loaded ammo is very difficult to come by. Graf's usually has 6.5 Japanese brass in stock, and I think Bannerman's is offering loaded ammo for both. In a pinch, you can still format 7.7 brass from '06. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:59:12 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By konger: Seems like a number of countries fielding 6.5 rifles went bigger after using them in combat. I wonder why? Yet 5.56 puts dicks in the dirt really well. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:01:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jason280]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Scott_S: Apparently it was fairly popular to rechamber Type 38s to 6.5x.257 Roberts. My late father-in-law had one. After months of searching I finally found dies for it and we reloaded 50 rounds of 120 grain Nosler ballistic tips. Never shot it for groups or chronoed the rounds. Fun enough at the machine gun shoot. After the war, reloadable 6.5 Japanese brass was non-existent...I don't think Norma started offering it until the 60s. Someone figured out you could simply run a .257 Roberts reamer through the chamber, and use readily available Roberts brass and a 6.5x257 set if dies. I have a really nice version in the safe... |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:04:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Wineraner]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Scott_S: Apparently it was fairly popular to rechamber Type 38s to 6.5x.257 Roberts. My late father-in-law had one. After months of searching I finally found dies for it and we reloaded 50 rounds of 120 grain Nosler ballistic tips. Never shot it for groups or chronoed the rounds. Fun enough at the machine gun shoot. 120 Sierra flatbases worked well on Bambi. Shot well. About a 1.5-2 MOA rifle. Good enough for coyotes at 250, bambi at 4. Can't remember if we loaded boattails in it or not. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:06:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HillaryClinton]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jason280: Graf's usually has 6.5 Japanese brass in stock, and I think Bannerman's is offering loaded ammo for both. In a pinch, you can still format 7.7 brass from '06. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jason280: Originally Posted By mech4matsnova: Today loaded ammo is very difficult to come by. Graf's usually has 6.5 Japanese brass in stock, and I think Bannerman's is offering loaded ammo for both. In a pinch, you can still format 7.7 brass from '06. I make all of my 7.7 from new 30.06 brass. .270 Winchester can also be converted to 7.7 but I've never used .270 personally. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:07:16 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By konger: Seems like a number of countries fielding 6.5 rifles went bigger after using them in combat. I wonder why? For GPMG use, you can pack more crap into a 7.7 sized package (tracer compound, penetrator) than 6.5. And they weren't hip to the yaw/fragment kill mechanism of good 5.56 (or 147 7.62 Nato, allegedly) yet. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:10:00 PM EDT
[#14]
A different bullet and another 200-300 fps might have changed their mind. Also, what was the barrel twist in the Japanese rifle? Wonder if that might have made a difference?
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:35:09 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Yet 5.56 puts dicks in the dirt really well. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By konger: Seems like a number of countries fielding 6.5 rifles went bigger after using them in combat. I wonder why? Yet 5.56 puts dicks in the dirt really well. I think the rate of fire of the 556 helps to compensate for that. I'm pretty decent with a bolt gun but I can put multiple 556 rounds in targets as fast as a bolt If stuck with a bolt gun I definitely wouldn't want a 556. I was perfectly content with my SAW. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:37:27 PM EDT
[#16]
I’m pretty sure I have an old box of Norma 6.5J somewhere.
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:37:34 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GlockPride: A different bullet and another 200-300 fps might have changed their mind. Also, what was the barrel twist in the Japanese rifle? Wonder if that might have made a difference? I know I said a jsp would probably have solved the problem but not possible back them. What bullet would have been more effective but would also have been available to them? |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:37:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Several countries used 6.5mm cartridges.
6.5 Jap 6.5 Dutch 6.5 Mannlicher schnauer 6.5 Swede I'm sure there are others. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:46:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Jason280]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN: I know I said a jsp would probably have solved the problem but not possible back them. What bullet would have been more effective but would also have been available to them? In the grand scheme of things, none....you could have switched small arms between the US and Japan in the Pacific theater, wouldn't have made one bit of difference. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:48:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mancat]
[#20]
I have a non-last ditch 6.5 Arisaka that was given to me by my dad's best friend. His dad brought it home from the Phillippines, proceeded to cut the stock and used it as a deer rifle. The Mum is still intact.
The OEM parts are almost completely gone for these. I've been considering buying an airsoft clone to get the stock and hard steel pieces that you just can't find, like the dust cover and stock bands. It would just be a wall hanger and that's fine with me. When I was younger I shot 40 rounds of Norma through it. It actually shot pretty well and I was able to put all shots within a sheet of office paper at 100yd. Not bad for a crusty WWII bore. It did however push all of the primers out and I'm not so sure that the headspace is good. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:50:00 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Yet 5.56 puts dicks in the dirt really well. Pfffftttt… Barbie guns… |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:51:41 PM EDT
[#22]
The stretched SKS is a neat idea
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:52:32 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mancat: It did however push all of the primers out and I'm not so sure that the headspace is good. These rifles are notorious for *ahem* generous chambers. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:53:02 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By akguy1985: Several countries used 6.5mm cartridges. 6.5 Jap 6.5 Dutch 6.5 Mannlicher schnauer 6.5 Swede I'm sure there are others. 6.5 Carcano for one. |
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AR, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 10:59:18 PM EDT
[#25]
Thankfully they didn’t have access to the Hornady 123 gr SST or we would have needed a couple of more nukes.
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Posted: 4/27/2024 11:00:50 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lumper: 6.5 Carcano for one. Forgot that one. D'oh!! |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 11:00:54 PM EDT
[#27]
The ammo today in that caliber is superior and in select fire. Crappy ammo was an issue. The doctrine of close combat and reliance of the bushido warrior spirit did not require a great rifle, just an adequate one with a long sword-like bayonet. Even as late as 1942 in Burma, they would charge en mass with bayonets fixed and an empty rifle. The Short-range weapons, like the light machine gun and grenade, were grudgingly accepted. The concept of a semi-automatic rifle like the M1 Garand was considered unwarrior-like. They were feared not because their weapons were superior, but due to their fierce adherence to their warrior code.
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Posted: 4/27/2024 11:04:33 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lumper: 6.5 Carcano for one. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lumper: Originally Posted By akguy1985: Several countries used 6.5mm cartridges. 6.5 Jap 6.5 Dutch 6.5 Mannlicher schnauer 6.5 Swede I'm sure there are others. 6.5 Carcano for one. From that list where did they go next? |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 11:09:21 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 9D1Alpha: The stretched SKS is a neat idea The SKS was downsized from the PTRS-41, in 14.5 x 114mm. It would be sooo awesome to have one in .50BMG. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 11:10:52 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GlockPride: A different bullet and another 200-300 fps might have changed their mind. Also, what was the barrel twist in the Japanese rifle? Wonder if that might have made a difference? A country without a culture of riflemen may have made a difference too. Misses, slow shooting, slow reloading, and poor weapon maintenance may also have contributed slightly to Americans killing them faster than they killed us. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 11:20:23 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JellyBelly: A country without a culture of riflemen may have made a difference too. Misses, slow shooting, slow reloading, and poor weapon maintenance may also have contributed slightly to Americans killing them faster than they killed us. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JellyBelly: Originally Posted By GlockPride: A different bullet and another 200-300 fps might have changed their mind. Also, what was the barrel twist in the Japanese rifle? Wonder if that might have made a difference? A country without a culture of riflemen may have made a difference too. Misses, slow shooting, slow reloading, and poor weapon maintenance may also have contributed slightly to Americans killing them faster than they killed us. While there were no doubt 6.5s in service the 99 in 7.7 was their service rifle in ww2. Prior to their desperate actions in ww2 I'm pretty sure accuracy and weapons maintenance weren't an issue anymore than any other country. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 11:24:49 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kozaki: The SKS was downsized from the PTRS-41, in 14.5 x 114mm. It would be sooo awesome to have one in .50BMG. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kozaki: Originally Posted By 9D1Alpha: The stretched SKS is a neat idea The SKS was downsized from the PTRS-41, in 14.5 x 114mm. It would be sooo awesome to have one in .50BMG. That's kinda what made me think sks |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 11:32:41 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By akguy1985: Several countries used 6.5mm cartridges. 6.5 Jap 6.5 Dutch 6.5 Mannlicher schnauer 6.5 Swede I'm sure there are others. Here in the states we can add 6.5 Creedmoor to the list, Fluffy’s favorite cartridge. 
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Posted: 4/27/2024 11:34:52 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By akguy1985: Several countries used 6.5mm cartridges. 6.5 Jap 6.5 Dutch 6.5 Mannlicher schnauer 6.5 Swede I'm sure there are others. America’s cartridge is 6.5 Creedmoor. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 11:39:59 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN: From that list where did they go next? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN: Originally Posted By lumper: Originally Posted By akguy1985: Several countries used 6.5mm cartridges. 6.5 Jap 6.5 Dutch 6.5 Mannlicher schnauer 6.5 Swede I'm sure there are others. 6.5 Carcano for one. From that list where did they go next? Japs went to 7.7mm. Dutch went to .30-06. Austrians became Germans, went to 7.92x57mm. Swedes went to 7.62x51mm. Italians went to 7.35mm briefly before going to back to 6.5mm for the duration of the war. Good argument for a high/low mix in machineguns/rifles like the Swedes did - 6.5x55 in rifles & LMG (improved BAR), 8x63mm in artillery carbines & medium/heavy(water-cooled) machineguns (staffed by artillery troops). We look to be doing similar: 5.56x45mm for carbines, 6.8 Super Duper for rifles & LMG. |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 11:50:27 PM EDT
[#36]
Ask a Marine on Guadalcanal, a soldier on the Philippines, an Aussie on New Guinea...6.5 was scary enough along with whatever else the Japs sent their way. Crom count the dead.
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Posted: 4/28/2024 12:03:00 AM EDT
[#37]
This thread needs pictures.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2024 12:36:40 AM EDT
[#38]
The answer is 7 ; 7x57 , 7-08 , 7-30waters
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Posted: 4/28/2024 1:16:21 AM EDT
[#39]
Get a good reloading book and you will find every bullet diameter has been tried.
The only thing that counts is can you consistently put the bullet in the target. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 1:17:54 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 9D1Alpha: The answer is 7 ; 7x57 , 7-08 , 7-30waters |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 1:36:37 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Yet 5.56 puts dicks in the dirt really well. 6.5 put animals in the dirt as well as 5.56 puts humans in the dirt. Just say'n. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2024 1:42:26 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Positronic: At the end, the answer was U-235 Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Positronic: Originally Posted By 9D1Alpha: The answer is 7 ; 7x57 , 7-08 , 7-30waters Weird , I just commented in the chernobyl thread . |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 1:55:33 AM EDT
[#43]
The 6.5 Arisaka was an adequate round. In China it was found deficient, possibly due to lack of penetration through thick winter clothing. That wasn’t an issue in the south and southwest Pacific. The 7.7 Arisaka was a superior round but the Type 99 rifle it was chambered in didn’t make a real appearance until a few years into the war with the Allies. The Type 38 6.5mm served the entire war and in greater numbers until very late in the war.
Japanese ammunition suffered in velocity and reliability as the war went on due to the US bombing campaign and sinking of ships causing a reduction of imports of needed raw materials for the powder. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 2:15:13 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN: From that list where did they go next? |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 3:38:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Gamma762]
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GlockPride: A different bullet and another 200-300 fps might have changed their mind. Also, what was the barrel twist in the Japanese rifle? Wonder if that might have made a difference? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GlockPride: A different bullet and another 200-300 fps might have changed their mind. Also, what was the barrel twist in the Japanese rifle? Wonder if that might have made a difference? Bullets from that time period were often designed for maximum penetration and terminal ballistics suffered as a result. A different bullet design that tumbled rapidly would have been more effective (and bad news for US). Twist rate makes no difference to terminal ballistics. Originally Posted By 03RN: What bullet would have been more effective but would also have been available to them? More pointed shape with the center of gravity moved back in the bullet to get rapid tumbling. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 3:43:22 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By akguy1985: Several countries used 6.5mm cartridges. 6.5 Jap 6.5 Dutch 6.5 Mannlicher schnauer 6.5 Swede I'm sure there are others. All were full power cartridges, too, not intermediate as described in the OP. U.S. also used the 6mm Lee Navy cartridge which was in a similar vein. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 3:52:49 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN: From that list where did they go next? I think the next 6.5 was the 6.5 Remington Magnum, which is a nice cartridge in a handy little carbine (Remington 600), but never really caught on. |
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Posted: 4/28/2024 4:27:42 AM EDT
[#48]
After the era of big long hunks of lead piercing the air at 1500 fps up to 1800 with 350 plus grains of lead anything was an improvement. Even the 1903-03 Springfield fielded a 220 2300fps slug that crashed through everything it could reach. Just look at the progression of the U.S. from 45/70 to 30-06.
At the turn of the century pointy fast was what everyone was after. Slow crushing lead was left to the annals of history. The problem with the jap 6.5 was they didn't have enough of it, period. Send troops with 5 cartridges and inflict what damage they could. And they were not the only army that used that tactic. They were not getting a resupply why wither their combat strength waiting for something that was not even going to land on a beach. The canal they lost thousands to their combat tactic of rushing forward hoping to overwhelm the U.S. forward positions. And what did they do, the japs loaded up and went to Rabaul. Nothing wrong with the 6.5 during WWII just could not get any. |
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AK, USA
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Posted: 4/28/2024 5:37:25 AM EDT
[#49]
JFK wasn't a fan either
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Posted: 4/28/2024 6:46:06 AM EDT
[#50]
I thought I heard they made the switch for better tracer performance?
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