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Posted: 4/11/2024 12:44:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: CFII]
I know at my place of work we are slowing classes. AA has no summer classes. I believe United is slowing as well. Iero went out of business, Spirit is threatening furloughs and downgrades, and now the kicker of it all: Frontier is enacting a training contract with a 2 year payback clause.
Is there alarm to be had? No. But the salad days ended fall of 2023, and now its going to be competitive again. The worst part of the past 4 years is that so many regionals survived. That is a true shame, as they are a pox upon humanity. |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 1:13:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BillofRights]
[#1]
What is Iero?
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Posted: 4/11/2024 1:18:41 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillofRights: What is Iero? Charter airline flying 737s. Have had a lot of my buddies go thru there on their way up the ladder. Swift/Iaero |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 1:44:09 PM EDT
[#3]
I guess I missed the boat.
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Posted: 4/11/2024 2:01:54 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By esa17: I guess I missed the boat. You can’t think that way. The last passenger saved off the Titanic, was still happy to be warm and dry. Never, never give up. |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 2:02:17 PM EDT
[#5]
What does this mean for those of us who sit in the back?
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FM, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 2:04:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Reekus]
[#6]
Originally Posted By WoodHeat: What does this mean for those of us who sit in the back? You'll still be there and god help us it'll be harder for you to get into the skyclub now |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 2:10:14 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WoodHeat: What does this mean for those of us who sit in the back? Oh nothing of note. Basically the hiring is just normalizing, and as a whole, the pilots at the legacies will bring a bit more experience than they already did. |
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Posted: 4/11/2024 2:56:01 PM EDT
[#8]
Missed Boeing 737 deliveries were cited by UAL and Spirit as the reason for layoffs/furloughs.
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Posted: 4/11/2024 2:58:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: CFII]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KILLERB6: Missed Boeing 737 deliveries were cited by UAL and Spirit as the reason for layoffs/furloughs. For United, it is a reason they are slowing. Spirit only flies the A320 variants, and the engine issues with the Pratt GTF motor has a lot of their jets parked. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 4:19:08 PM EDT
[#10]
I wish they’d double the price of the tickets. Too damn many people flying as it is. Some of these people be acting a fool like this is a greyhound or something.
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TN, USA
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Posted: 4/11/2024 6:42:46 PM EDT
[#11]
I’m pretty sure the Blue team is still hiring, although only for attrition. I think at this point, I’m getting comfortable with the idea of staying where I’m at for a while.
Definitely feels like any real movement is slowing to a crawl. |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 8:59:34 AM EDT
[#12]
Legacy hiring is still at epic levels for any year prior to 2015. Don't give up hope! Everything is cyclical. Position yourself to be ready when Boeing and Airbus deliveries get back on track.
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NC, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 10:00:41 AM EDT
[#13]
Originally Posted By CFII: SNIP- Frontier is enacting a training contract with a 2 year payback clause. The worst part of the past 4 years is that so many regionals survived. That is a true shame, as they are a pox upon humanity. AAL, UAL, DAL - "Do you want a window, aisle, or middle seat?" Frontier/Spirit - "Do you want window, aisle, or ringside?" |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 11:11:17 AM EDT
[#14]
Well my position has been eliminated so I'm scrambling to find a job so I am hopeful the pendulum doesn't swing too far too fast.
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Posted: 4/12/2024 2:33:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: LDiablo9]
[#15]
United is on the FAA watchlist and cant grow any new routes or equipment for the foreseeable future.
Spirit and Frontier are getting manhandled by the Legacy airlines because their low cost no frills business models have such a thin profit margin. Southwest had slowed because the max has been a disaster. AA and UA are taking delivery delays on the max as well. Are we on the backside of the salad days curve, for sure BUT AA has the most retirements next year (~950ish) other airlines have high retirements over the next few years as well. This is still one of the best times to be a 121 pilot in history! The movement is insane! Direct entry captains at a major are unheard of yet they're happening and at my place of employment the most junior Capt has been on property just over two years! Get your apps out there! |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 5:34:22 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pickle: Well my position has been eliminated so I'm scrambling to find a job so I am hopeful the pendulum doesn't swing too far too fast. That’s unfortunate. I just got lucky a couple years ago and got a job at team Hat. I count my blessings. My friends at Iaero got hosed. |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 5:43:26 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mardoc: AAL, UAL, DAL - "Do you want a window, aisle, or middle seat?" Frontier/Spirit - "Do you want window, aisle, or ringside?" Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mardoc: Originally Posted By CFII: SNIP- Frontier is enacting a training contract with a 2 year payback clause. The worst part of the past 4 years is that so many regionals survived. That is a true shame, as they are a pox upon humanity. AAL, UAL, DAL - "Do you want a window, aisle, or middle seat?" Frontier/Spirit - "Do you want window, aisle, or ringside?"  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 5:51:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Ringsting]
[#18]
As an industry outsider - why are regionals a pox on humanity. (Serious question!)
According to everyone's favorite 80's documentary TV show Wings, small regional airlines are the saving grace of the industry! 
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Posted: 4/12/2024 6:14:19 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ringsting: As an industry outsider - why are regionals a pox on humanity. (Serious question!) According to everyone's favorite 80's documentary TV show Wings, small regional airlines are the saving grace of the industry! Pay, work rules, shit schedules, offensive Managment out to get you, little support from dispatchers, etc. Pay is better now since they had zero choice. Once they don’t have to be nice, it will be back down. Here is a good older documentary.  Flying Cheap (full documentary) | FRONTLINE |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 6:52:24 PM EDT
[#20]
@CFII
I love that documentary, one of the few pieces on aviation that the media got pretty close to 100% accurate. Roger Cohen is such a scumbag! |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 1:40:57 PM EDT
[#21]
Atlas is still hiring because we can't keep people.
Apply at your own risk. |
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Posted: 4/14/2024 1:55:04 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillofRights: You can’t think that way. The last passenger saved off the Titanic, was still happy to be warm and dry. Never, never give up. I appreciate that. However, I was being a bit facetious. I stopped applying to WN years ago because I was afraid to get hired. I absolutely love being a 135/91 management pilot. That said, I’d happily buy you a beer for being a good dude. |
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Posted: 4/14/2024 8:40:29 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ringsting: As an industry outsider - why are regionals a pox on humanity. (Serious question!) According to everyone's favorite 80's documentary TV show Wings, small regional airlines are the saving grace of the industry! The regional model as it exists now -- where they are subcontracted to fly aircraft that have a size/capacity/range which prior to the 1980s would have been flown by the mainline/legacy airline, and are flown on transcontinental and international routes in North America -- are a result of Delta pilots in the late 80s sticking their nose up at flying those smaller jets because it was "beneath them". In the wake of that decision (and the ripple-effects at other airline pilot unions after the DALPA decision) is an enormous subcontracting industry that has been created and brought with it a huge number of "second-class citizen" pilot/FA/maintenance jobs in terms of lower wages, crappier work rules, and terrible schedules...and all for doing essentially the same work for the same passengers as the major airlines. |
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Posted: 4/14/2024 8:41:09 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TimeOnTarget: Atlas is still hiring because we can't keep people. Apply at your own risk. You guys are going to make out like bandits in the FedEx acquisition, though. :) |
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Posted: 4/14/2024 11:16:01 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CFII: Pay, work rules, shit schedules, offensive Managment out to get you, little support from dispatchers, etc. Pay is better now since they had zero choice. Once they don't have to be nice, it will be back down. Here is a good older documentary.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xms1akNhhgQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By CFII: Originally Posted By Ringsting: As an industry outsider - why are regionals a pox on humanity. (Serious question!) According to everyone's favorite 80's documentary TV show Wings, small regional airlines are the saving grace of the industry! Pay, work rules, shit schedules, offensive Managment out to get you, little support from dispatchers, etc. Pay is better now since they had zero choice. Once they don't have to be nice, it will be back down. Here is a good older documentary. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xms1akNhhgJust an opinion of course. |
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Posted: 4/14/2024 9:03:43 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: You guys are going to make out like bandits in the FedEx acquisition, though. :) Those guys are screwed now that JD is there. You never know what might happen, but I think a merger with us would be a trainwreck! |
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Posted: 4/15/2024 3:50:51 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: The regional model as it exists now -- where they are subcontracted to fly aircraft that have a size/capacity/range which prior to the 1980s would have been flown by the mainline/legacy airline, and are flown on transcontinental and international routes in North America -- are a result of Delta pilots in the late 80s sticking their nose up at flying those smaller jets because it was "beneath them". In the wake of that decision (and the ripple-effects at other airline pilot unions after the DALPA decision) is an enormous subcontracting industry that has been created and brought with it a huge number of "second-class citizen" pilot/FA/maintenance jobs in terms of lower wages, crappier work rules, and terrible schedules...and all for doing essentially the same work for the same passengers as the major airlines. 100% I find subtle irony that I despise the regionals yet fly for Delta now, but hey, that decision was way before my time. LOL |
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Posted: 4/15/2024 9:47:28 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CFII: 100% I find subtle irony that I despise the regionals yet fly for Delta now, but hey, that decision was way before my time. LOL What's kind of sad is that the current seniority lists at all the legacies are jam-packed with pilots who had to suffer through the regionals...and yet scope clauses still get ever-so-slightly loosened regularly for pieces of silver and other shiny bits in contract negotiations. Sadly, we are our own worst enemies. |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 4/15/2024 9:47:53 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TimeOnTarget: Atlas is still hiring because we can't keep people. Apply at your own risk. Friend is an FO on 767. He seems happy. |
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Posted: 4/17/2024 10:50:14 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ameshawki: Friend is an FO on 767. He seems happy. How old is he? Where did he work previously? Atlas is not a bad job, but it's not a good job. Things are getting better, but we are grossly underpaid for what we do, and we have been scarred by 20 plus years of hostile management. Sadly, FEDEX will now suffer greatly under JD's slash and burn carpet baggery. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/17/2024 3:23:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: lucky_dog]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ameshawki: Friend is an FO on 767. He seems happy. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ameshawki: Originally Posted By TimeOnTarget: Atlas is still hiring because we can't keep people. Apply at your own risk. Friend is an FO on 767. He seems happy. Seems happy, or is happy? Is he a 20somthingyear old and this is his adult first job? You couldn’t pay me enough to go to Atlas, but some guys like it. Heck there’s even people out there who claim they like flying for NetJets. Misery loves company. I’d go to ZW before one of them. |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 3:52:57 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TimeOnTarget: How old is he? Where did he work previously? Atlas is not a bad job, but it's not a good job. Things are getting better, but we are grossly underpaid for what we do, and we have been scarred by 20 plus years of hostile management. Sadly, FEDEX will now suffer greatly under JD's slash and burn carpet baggery. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TimeOnTarget: Originally Posted By Ameshawki: Friend is an FO on 767. He seems happy. How old is he? Where did he work previously? Atlas is not a bad job, but it's not a good job. Things are getting better, but we are grossly underpaid for what we do, and we have been scarred by 20 plus years of hostile management. Sadly, FEDEX will now suffer greatly under JD's slash and burn carpet baggery. Many thousands of us (and our families) whose jobs were cut March 21 already are suffering from DRIVE. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 7:28:22 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By esa17: I appreciate that. However, I was being a bit facetious. I stopped applying to WN years ago because I was afraid to get hired. I absolutely love being a 135/91 management pilot. That said, I’d happily buy you a beer for being a good dude. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By esa17: Originally Posted By BillofRights: You can’t think that way. The last passenger saved off the Titanic, was still happy to be warm and dry. Never, never give up. I appreciate that. However, I was being a bit facetious. I stopped applying to WN years ago because I was afraid to get hired. I absolutely love being a 135/91 management pilot. That said, I’d happily buy you a beer for being a good dude.  . Pilots always stick together. We’re a true band of Brothers.
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OH, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2024 2:40:32 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TimeOnTarget: Those guys are screwed now that JD is there. You never know what might happen, but I think a merger with us would be a trainwreck! Funny thing is the Raj said that FedEx Orange is going to be competing for the same stuff as Atlas. 
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USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 9:05:33 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: What's kind of sad is that the current seniority lists at all the legacies are jam-packed with pilots who had to suffer through the regionals...and yet scope clauses still get ever-so-slightly loosened regularly for pieces of silver and other shiny bits in contract negotiations. Sadly, we are our own worst enemies. I think both DAL and UAL's recent contracts actually tightened scope wrt to RJ's. I think we're currently seeing the fewest RJ's we've had in decades. Break break I still think it's a decent time to get into the game. Most of the slowing of hiring is due to aircraft/engine manufacturers and bringing instructors to the line for summer flying. I still think we're on track to hire 500-1000 pilots at DAL. 1,000 pilots is still A LOT of pilots. I remember guys laughing at the company saying we'd never be able to train 1000+ pilots/year. Now, we slow to 1,000 and people act like the world is crumbling around us (not saying that is you CFII). Then again, this industry is hire till you furlough lol. |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 9:10:50 AM EDT
[#36]
Find a way to prevent assholes, jerks, the entitled, loudmouths, seat kickers, morbidly obese, and morons to fly.
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Posted: 4/22/2024 5:47:39 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HotHolster: Find a way to prevent assholes, jerks, the entitled, loudmouths, seat kickers, morbidly obese, and morons to fly. UPS & FEDEX did. Everyone else depends on them. |
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