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Posted: 4/18/2024 2:21:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Brok3n]
True Velocity sues Sig Sauer, alleging stolen trade secrets
True Velocity Ammunition and sister company Lone Star Future Weapons sued gunmaker Sig Sauer, alleging the company stole trade secrets. The companies are competing against each other to produce the U.S. Army's Next-Generation Squad Weapon worth an estimated $4.5 billion. Sig Sauer won that competition in April 2022. Those first weapons from Sig Sauer were delivered to soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, last month. The complaint filed on April 9 in Vermont Superior Court lays out True Velocity's claim that Sig Sauer "brazenly and wrongfully misappropriated Plaintiff's trade secrets to obtain an unfair competitive advantage.. At the heart of the LMMG is a proprietary "revolutionary mitigation system called Short Recoil Impulse Averaging (SRIA)," according to the complaint. "Historically, mitigating recoil forces of machine guns require either adding mass to a weapon systems or length to a receiver," the document explains. "The SRIA technology advanced by GD-OTS and Plaintiff reduces recoil without increasing the weapon's mass or receiver length." https://www.defensenews.com/land/2024/04/17/true-velocity-sues-sig-sauer-alleging-stolen-trade-secrets/ |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 2:25:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Beretta_Jerry]
[#1]
Krishna will avenge!
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VA, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 6:53:55 AM EDT
[#2]
…I somehow doubt that a big, established player in the small arms world with a massive R&D branch stole tech from a newcomer pushing for an entirely different cartridge design.
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Posted: 4/18/2024 7:40:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: jough43]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rb889: …I somehow doubt that a big, established player in the small arms world with a massive R&D branch stole tech from a newcomer pushing for an entirely different cartridge design. You might be wrong. Sig Sauer ammo was formed entirely by Remington ammo engineers and managers that defected to start Sig. They stole most all of Remington's designs and internal specs. It was a huge intellectual property theft. Remington, now owned by Vista, is still pissed about it. The plants are less than 20 miles apart. This happened roughly 10 years ago. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 7:47:22 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jough43: You might be wrong. Sig Sauer ammo was formed entirely by Remington ammo engineers and managers that defected to start Sig. They stole most all of Remington's designs and internal specs. It was a huge intellectual property theft. Remington, now owned by Vista, is still pissed about it. The plants are less than 20 miles apart. This happened roughly 10 years ago. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jough43: Originally Posted By rb889: …I somehow doubt that a big, established player in the small arms world with a massive R&D branch stole tech from a newcomer pushing for an entirely different cartridge design. You might be wrong. Sig Sauer ammo was formed entirely by Remington ammo engineers and managers that defected to start Sig. They stole most all of Remington's designs and internal specs. It was a huge intellectual property theft. Remington, now owned by Vista, is still pissed about it. The plants are less than 20 miles apart. This happened roughly 10 years ago. I've seen larger medical companies work with smaller companies on the guise of partnering or acquiring the small company, then once they get far enough along in "negotiations" to be shown the secrets they bail and make their own version. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 7:49:41 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By green_bullet: I've seen larger medical companies work with smaller companies on the guise of partnering or acquiring the small company, then once they get far enough along in "negotiations" to be shown the secrets they bail and make their own version. Like Jobs & Gates |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 8:06:45 AM EDT
[#6]
Sounds like a retained knowledge problem. Sig poached their employees, but if there was no non-compete thats not necessarily a problem. The employees surely had NDAs with TV, which they may (or may not) not have directly violated when they went to Sig. Independent development is a thing, and if its just a trade secret, nothing prevents Sig from independently pursuing a similar product. But if Sig was engaging in its own program, similar in scope to the TV trade secrets, those employees could have helped Sig - not by directly sharing the trade secrets of TV, but through use of general retained knowledge of certain things that work and don't work which are not part of the trade secrets.
I'm no trade secret lawyer though, so not sure the caselaw on that or how it works out in court. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 8:11:27 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By green_bullet: I've seen larger medical companies work with smaller companies on the guise of partnering or acquiring the small company, then once they get far enough along in "negotiations" to be shown the secrets they bail and make their own version. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By green_bullet: Originally Posted By jough43: Originally Posted By rb889: …I somehow doubt that a big, established player in the small arms world with a massive R&D branch stole tech from a newcomer pushing for an entirely different cartridge design. You might be wrong. Sig Sauer ammo was formed entirely by Remington ammo engineers and managers that defected to start Sig. They stole most all of Remington's designs and internal specs. It was a huge intellectual property theft. Remington, now owned by Vista, is still pissed about it. The plants are less than 20 miles apart. This happened roughly 10 years ago. I've seen larger medical companies work with smaller companies on the guise of partnering or acquiring the small company, then once they get far enough along in "negotiations" to be shown the secrets they bail and make their own version. It's a thing in the corporate world...... espionage is real |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 8:24:13 AM EDT
[#8]
This is a tough one to dig into, because there's not much information out there on "Short Recoil Impulse Averaging (SRIA)" in recent news or from SRIA...
Here's a 2012 patent from General Dynamics on it, and a writeup on a MMG they were offering up at the time, which actually looks a lot like SIG's current offering https://patents.google.com/patent/US20130047833A1/en https://modernfirearms.net/en/machineguns/u-s-a-machineguns/lwmmg-eng/ I'm still not wrapping my brain around the tech I don't think. They're letting an inner receiver assembly (BGC, Barrel/extension, gas system) slide back and forth in a separate outer receiver housing? Is that right? |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 8:25:04 AM EDT
[#9]
Would be a real hoot if Sig went out of business but I know they wont.
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Posted: 4/18/2024 8:27:43 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By arr199: This is a tough one to dig into, because there's not much information out there on "Short Recoil Impulse Averaging (SRIA)" in recent news or from SRIA... Here's a 2012 patent from General Dynamics on it, and a writeup on a MMG they were offering up at the time, which actually looks a lot like SIG's current offering https://patents.google.com/patent/US20130047833A1/en https://modernfirearms.net/en/machineguns/u-s-a-machineguns/lwmmg-eng/ I'm still not wrapping my brain around the tech I don't think. They're letting an inner receiver assembly (BGC, Barrel/extension, gas system) slide back and forth in a separate outer receiver housing? Is that right? Sounds like your garden variety M1919 or M2 to me if that's the case.. |
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BHS
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Posted: 4/18/2024 8:49:50 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rb889: …I somehow doubt that a big, established player in the small arms world with a massive R&D branch stole tech from a newcomer pushing for an entirely different cartridge design. You believe large corporations are full of innovation and new ideas?  A majority of tech comes from small companies that get bought out by big companies. It’s absolutely believable Sig would copy a small company’s technology. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 8:58:23 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By arr199: This is a tough one to dig into, because there's not much information out there on "Short Recoil Impulse Averaging (SRIA)" in recent news or from SRIA... Here's a 2012 patent from General Dynamics on it, and a writeup on a MMG they were offering up at the time, which actually looks a lot like SIG's current offering https://patents.google.com/patent/US20130047833A1/en https://modernfirearms.net/en/machineguns/u-s-a-machineguns/lwmmg-eng/ I'm still not wrapping my brain around the tech I don't think. They're letting an inner receiver assembly (BGC, Barrel/extension, gas system) slide back and forth in a separate outer receiver housing? Is that right? I believe that True Velocity acquired the GD design/patents. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 9:17:08 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rb889: …I somehow doubt that a big, established player in the small arms world with a massive R&D branch stole tech from a newcomer pushing for an entirely different cartridge design. This happens all the time. Industrial Espionage |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 9:21:13 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By arr199: This is a tough one to dig into, because there's not much information out there on "Short Recoil Impulse Averaging (SRIA)" in recent news or from SRIA... Here's a 2012 patent from General Dynamics on it, and a writeup on a MMG they were offering up at the time, which actually looks a lot like SIG's current offering https://patents.google.com/patent/US20130047833A1/en https://modernfirearms.net/en/machineguns/u-s-a-machineguns/lwmmg-eng/ I'm still not wrapping my brain around the tech I don't think. They're letting an inner receiver assembly (BGC, Barrel/extension, gas system) slide back and forth in a separate outer receiver housing? Is that right? So it's a slidefire 
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TN, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 9:21:46 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rb889: …I somehow doubt that a big, established player in the small arms world with a massive R&D branch stole tech from a newcomer pushing for an entirely different cartridge design. Depends on what tech was shared by said startup with the big gorilla in the room. It definitely could be stolen tech. Hope they had NDAs in place. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 9:23:52 AM EDT
[#16]
Fuck Josh Cohen.
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Posted: 4/18/2024 9:25:52 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Evil_Ed: Sounds like your garden variety M1919 or M2 to me if that's the case.. Does the SIG rifle barrel move during recoil? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 9:40:09 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FreefallRet: Barrett M107 has a similar setup. Does the SIG rifle barrel move during recoil? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FreefallRet: Originally Posted By Evil_Ed: Sounds like your garden variety M1919 or M2 to me if that's the case.. Does the SIG rifle barrel move during recoil? Nah, the Spear is just a beefy AR-18. Pretty sure the MG does tho |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 9:46:04 AM EDT
[#19]
4.6 Billion for a LMG replacment....
Is it plasma? |
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USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 9:54:04 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jough43: You might be wrong. Sig Sauer ammo was formed entirely by Remington ammo engineers and managers that defected to start Sig. They stole most all of Remington's designs and internal specs. It was a huge intellectual property theft. Remington, now owned by Vista, is still pissed about it. The plants are less than 20 miles apart. This happened roughly 10 years ago. well that explains why Sig ammo sucks. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 9:56:28 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pallas: Fuck Josh Cohen. You mean Ron Cohen?  |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 4/18/2024 11:20:21 AM EDT
[#22]
So, reading that whole article, then looking at the 2012 GD LMMG, then Sig's 2017 MG 338, then at their XM250, I would say that True Velocity has a pretty solid case for IP theft here.
GD's 2016 writeup on the system is pretty neat https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2016/armament/18356_Gudmundsen.pdf 1800+m effective range in an m240 size, felt recoil, and weight footprint is pretty compelling if it's not all marketing fluff. |
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Posted: 4/18/2024 3:30:04 PM EDT
[#23]
I'm not sure how True Velocity is going to prove its case but it at least gives us some insight into Sigs recruiting practices
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Posted: 4/19/2024 3:23:13 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SteelonSteel: well that explains why Sig ammo sucks. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SteelonSteel: Originally Posted By jough43: You might be wrong. Sig Sauer ammo was formed entirely by Remington ammo engineers and managers that defected to start Sig. They stole most all of Remington's designs and internal specs. It was a huge intellectual property theft. Remington, now owned by Vista, is still pissed about it. The plants are less than 20 miles apart. This happened roughly 10 years ago. well that explains why Sig ammo sucks.  |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2024 3:29:56 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Evil_Ed: Sounds like your garden variety M1919 or M2 to me if that's the case.. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Evil_Ed: Originally Posted By arr199: This is a tough one to dig into, because there's not much information out there on "Short Recoil Impulse Averaging (SRIA)" in recent news or from SRIA... Here's a 2012 patent from General Dynamics on it, and a writeup on a MMG they were offering up at the time, which actually looks a lot like SIG's current offering https://patents.google.com/patent/US20130047833A1/en https://modernfirearms.net/en/machineguns/u-s-a-machineguns/lwmmg-eng/ I'm still not wrapping my brain around the tech I don't think. They're letting an inner receiver assembly (BGC, Barrel/extension, gas system) slide back and forth in a separate outer receiver housing? Is that right? Sounds like your garden variety M1919 or M2 to me if that's the case.. Except the part where the Brownings are only recoil-operated and not a hybrid of recoil and gas, as the description seems to imply. |
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