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Posted: 4/19/2024 1:55:06 PM EDT
Our softener quit working (as expeceted. It's old).
So, I'm looking for a replacement. Preferably compact as room is at a premium in this area. In my search, I started running across whole house, inline filters as an alternative to softeners. Does anyone have experience between the two? I'm looking particularly at the Hardless NG4 water filter for $399. We're on county water so, not like it's well water but it is rather hard and the Mrs. hates it. It is enough to leave spots on the SS sink. I hate soft water because it makes you slimy in the shower. So, if one of these filters would do the trick, I'm on it. Any input would be appreciated. |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 1:57:05 PM EDT
[#1]
We have both
Our water comes from a well so it’s really hard and also full of arsenic We have a filtration system that deals with the arsenic and other bad stuff, and a potassium tank to soften it We also have a small RO system under the kitchen sink |
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USA
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Posted: 4/19/2024 1:59:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Torf]
[#2]
Softeners and Filters do different things.
If you are going with a whole house RO filter, then they are more similar. ETA: What is your water like? What is the GH, KH, pH, TDS, etc? |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 2:07:23 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Torf: Softeners and Filters do different things. If you are going with a whole house RO filter, then they are more similar. ETA: What is your water like? What is the GH, KH, pH, TDS, etc? I have no idea what that breakdown is. The more I read about this particular "filter" it's not a filter. It's a conversion process. Made in Israel, so.....replacement parts may get scarce.  https://www.hardlessngwaterfilter.com/ Might be snake oil. But they do have lots of good reviews. From their FAQ The scale in our drinking water consists of calcium ions, magnesium, and hydrocarbon ions (bicarbonate), which are actually good minerals for you and provide some of the necessary minerals for the human body-especially calcium and magnesium. But the same minerals that are good for you, form a scale buildup in your pipes, on heating elements, and in your water appliances, especially in the process of heating water- a process that accelerates the settling of limescale. Unlike water softeners, which use salt to remove the minerals and replace those minerals with salt ions, the Hardless NG4/NG4L modifies the crystalline structure of the minerals in order to reduce the problems that are caused by hard water but leaves them in the water because they are healthy to drink |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 2:12:08 PM EDT
[#4]
Complete snake oil.
I had a similar "saltless" softener from a VERY well respected brand (Pentair/Pelican) and it was $2000 and was complete horse shit. Hard water spots on everything. build up on all our fixtures. Had to descale water heater (tankless) constantly. Just finally ponied up and bought a Fleck 5600 SXT water softener and am doing it right. I still have a whole house water filter, which comprises of a prefilter and large carbon filter. |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 2:20:09 PM EDT
[#5]
Regarding the "sliminess", that's what actually being *clean* feels like. It's the water actually wetting your skin. Hard water really inhibits the cleaning properties of soap, so it doesn't clean that well and leaves oils on your body, which keeps the water from really wetting your skin.
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Posted: 4/19/2024 2:29:49 PM EDT
[#6]
Get your water tested and the appropriate filters/treatment for what's ailing it.
Your skin is the biggest organ in the body and absorbs all kinds of crap from bath and shower not just drinking water. Water is the universal solvent. R/O water takes just about everything out...but not all nitrates...and works better with soft water... Closer to distilled water in that you have to put back the essential minerals that get diluted out of your cells with R/O water. |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 2:30:33 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R2point0: Regarding the "sliminess", that's what actually being *clean* feels like. It's the water actually wetting your skin. Hard water really inhibits the cleaning properties of soap, so it doesn't clean that well and leaves oils on your body, which keeps the water from really wetting your skin. that's right...embrace the slimy "feeling"... |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 2:30:42 PM EDT
[#8]
+1 on the slick shower feeling on a water softener's salt.
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ridgerunner9876: I have no idea what that breakdown is. The county doesn't do annual testing and publish the results to you? In CA they mailed me a pamphlet. Here in MI they published it in the local newspaper. You should be able to call the county and get your water supply's latest test results. At least you ought to know with what you're dealing with because there are different filters for different things. I have an under-counter 3 filter RO system under the kitchen sink that feeds a tap but also the ice maker in the freezer section. We |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 2:59:11 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -Obsessed-: Complete snake oil. I had a similar "saltless" softener from a VERY well respected brand (Pentair/Pelican) and it was $2000 and was complete horse shit. Hard water spots on everything. build up on all our fixtures. Had to descale water heater (tankless) constantly. Just finally ponied up and bought a Fleck 5600 SXT water softener and am doing it right. I still have a whole house water filter, which comprises of a prefilter and large carbon filter. I figured the Israeli one was snake oil. "Converting lime to blah blah blah". Sitting here educating my self. It looks like RO is not the way for whole house because of reduction in flow rate (we already have not that great pressure, which brings me to asking about the little electric pressure boosters. Anybody use one of those. Seems impossible. The water has to come from somewhere) 3 stage filter from Lowe's Anyway, maybe one of these regular, mechanical filters??? They seem to have specific ones for certain contaminates. |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 3:01:55 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 9divdoc: that's right...embrace the slimy "feeling"... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 9divdoc: Originally Posted By R2point0: Regarding the "sliminess", that's what actually being *clean* feels like. It's the water actually wetting your skin. Hard water really inhibits the cleaning properties of soap, so it doesn't clean that well and leaves oils on your body, which keeps the water from really wetting your skin. that's right...embrace the slimy "feeling"... I will not. I've hated it since I was a kid. I want the "squeaky clean" feel.  I'm not so much concerned with contaminates as minerals screwing up my pipes, heater, wife's hair, etc. |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 3:04:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Ridgerunner9876]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: +1 on the slick shower feeling on a water softener's salt. The county doesn't do annual testing and publish the results to you? In CA they mailed me a pamphlet. Here in MI they published it in the local newspaper. You should be able to call the county and get your water supply's latest test results. At least you ought to know with what you're dealing with because there are different filters for different things. I have an under-counter 3 filter RO system under the kitchen sink that feeds a tap but also the ice maker in the freezer section. We Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: +1 on the slick shower feeling on a water softener's salt. Originally Posted By Ridgerunner9876: I have no idea what that breakdown is. The county doesn't do annual testing and publish the results to you? In CA they mailed me a pamphlet. Here in MI they published it in the local newspaper. You should be able to call the county and get your water supply's latest test results. At least you ought to know with what you're dealing with because there are different filters for different things. I have an under-counter 3 filter RO system under the kitchen sink that feeds a tap but also the ice maker in the freezer section. We LOL. This is Brown county. It's like the wild west. You want tested water, you just go on and get you a little test kit and test away. I am seeing that the filters are specific. I ordered a test kit to at least get a rough idea. Bonus is the lowest property tax in the state and very little in the way of permits or inspections or any of that crap. We like it. |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 3:17:53 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ridgerunner9876: 3 stage filter from Lowe's Anyway, maybe one of these regular, mechanical filters??? They seem to have specific ones for certain contaminates. Fuck that. $475 and then you get to buy three expensive filters. Just get one of this and replace the softener. If drinking water is a concern after that get a filter/spigot for the kitchen sink/fridge. My well water was complete trash and now it may as well be Aquafina. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Pentair-OMNIFilter-Single-stage-10-GPM-Carbon-Block-Whole-House-Water-Filtration-System/5014510285 |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 3:38:59 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By deuce_22: Fuck that. $475 and then you get to buy three expensive filters. Just get one of this and replace the softener. If drinking water is a concern after that get a filter/spigot for the kitchen sink/fridge. My well water was complete trash and now it may as well be Aquafina. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Pentair-OMNIFilter-Single-stage-10-GPM-Carbon-Block-Whole-House-Water-Filtration-System/5014510285 Which filter element do you use? The "sediment and particulate"? Does it take out the lime, calcium and rust? Price is def attractive. 
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Posted: 4/19/2024 4:05:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ridgerunner9876: LOL. This is Brown county. It's like Bonus is the lowest property tax in the state and very little in the way of permits or inspections or any of that crap. We like it. Fixed. I've been motorcycling down that way then up Rt41 for 20 years. |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 4:11:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: XDONX3]
[#15]
You feel slimy because there’s still soap on you. If you want a whole house filter I’d suggest a big blue filter or two.Big blue
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Posted: 4/19/2024 4:14:36 PM EDT
[#16]
Went the filter route. 3 - 20” filters and a pre filter. Ispring is the brand. Also have a uv in the mix as well.
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Posted: 4/19/2024 4:19:55 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By XDONX3: You feel slimy because there's still soap on you. ... |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 4:21:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Just get a softener. Its so much better for appliances and pipes. Then put a RO u der the sink and run that to the fridge water.
It took me a good 3 months to get used to the slimy feeling but my skin is much healthier now |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2024 4:24:05 PM EDT
[#19]
I have both. Softened water has a lot of benefits like prolonging the life of your appliances and helping your surfactants work better.
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Posted: 4/19/2024 4:51:25 PM EDT
[#20]
OK. After sitting here reading for the last few hours.
Filters won't take out lime or calcium to any appreciable degree. There are varying degrees of what appear to be snake oil devices that reduce their effects in your plumbing including an interesting one that uses electrified, computer controlled wires wrapped around the main line in.  Only way to really manage what the issue is (hard water) is the damn softener. Filters are for a bunch of other stuff like chlorine, rust, etc etc. While I've got my plumbing hat on, I'll probably install one of the less expensive filters to make the water taste a bit better. I'll just push the damn bypass button when I get a fargin shower so I don't feel like a slimy frog. |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 4:54:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ridgerunner9876: OK. After sitting here reading for the last few hours. Filters won't take out lime or calcium to any appreciable degree. There are varying degrees of what appear to be snake oil devices that reduce their effects in your plumbing including an interesting one that uses electrified, computer controlled wires wrapped around the main line in. Only way to really manage what the issue is (hard water) is the damn softener. Filters are for a bunch of other stuff like chlorine, rust, etc etc. While I've got my plumbing hat on, I'll probably install one of the less expensive filters to make the water taste a bit better. I'll just push the damn bypass button when I get a fargin shower so I don't feel like a slimy frog. So you're going to save all your pipes except the ones going to the shower? Just embrace the slick clean feeling. It's the feeling of super soft water, whats not to love? |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 4/19/2024 8:44:15 PM EDT
[#22]
I do residential water treatment for a living. The only way to soften water (remove scale forming minerals) is a softener using ion exchange resin which is regenerated with salt (NaCl or KCl). And if it feels slick or slimy then you know it's working.
Also, when talking to customers it seems that people have different and nebulous ideas about what "water filter" means. "Filter" really just means it removes SOMETHING. You have to specify what the piece of equipment is removing. |
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Posted: 4/19/2024 10:13:56 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ridgerunner9876: Which filter element do you use? The "sediment and particulate"? Does it take out the lime, calcium and rust? Price is def attractive. It takes out plenty of black crap. Iron/rust, I presume. Water got way better with that filter but it got wayyyy better once I added a softener. Thanks to this thread I realized I need to change the filter and potentially buy more to put on the shelf. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 12:35:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: deuce_22]
[#24]
Simple job, way past time. Out of sight and out of mind
Note how I previously said my water is complete trash. Fairly deep well (for here, we just did a thread on that subject…) Just a lot of shit in it that I don’t need in my fixtures and plumbing and probably don’t want in or on me.  Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 12:46:27 AM EDT
[#25]
Tag, and that is gross, btw.
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Posted: 4/20/2024 6:49:37 AM EDT
[#26]
Salt charged softeners SUCK!
 <——voice of experience |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 7:32:47 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -Obsessed-: So you're going to save all your pipes except the ones going to the shower? Just embrace the slick clean feeling. It's the feeling of super soft water, whats not to love? Realized last night just after posting, my idea wouldn't work. Heater is already full of the slimy salt water. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 7:37:32 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mx5autoxer: I do residential water treatment for a living. The only way to soften water (remove scale forming minerals) is a softener using ion exchange resin which is regenerated with salt (NaCl or KCl). And if it feels slick or slimy then you know it's working. Also, when talking to customers it seems that people have different and nebulous ideas about what "water filter" means. "Filter" really just means it removes SOMETHING. You have to specify what the piece of equipment is removing. These are the conclusions I came to yesterday after doing lots of reading. The filter people are hesitant to come out and admit filters dont do lime or calcium. Looks like a new softener to make the Mrs happy. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 1:45:34 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Flatlands: Tag, and that is gross, btw. It looks a lot like green excrement in the picture. It didn't look like that in real life. It's just minerals, there's no scent or anything.
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