about the new ATF rule regarding "the business of selling firearms..." - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - about the new ATF rule regarding "the business of selling firearms..."

Posted: 5/5/2024 1:34:48 AM EDT

I'm trying to understand it, but from the multiple videos and articles I've seen, I can't seem to find a clear answer.

Under this rule, would I be engaged in the business of selling firearms, if I sell a single gun to a gun shop, whether I'm trading the gun in for a new one, or simply getting rid of it because I'm not using it/ don't care for it anymore?

Posted: 5/5/2024 5:18:44 AM EDT

[#1]

I think the universal consensus is that selling 1 firearm is not going to be viewed as dealing, especially if selling to a FFL. This is assuming that 1 firearm is truly 1. Not one per week or per month but just one. That's not to say that you might not also be fine under other circumstances but the scenario you presented doesn't hit any of the verbiage that they rule uses to identify a person "engaged in the business".

Posted: 5/5/2024 6:40:55 AM EDT

[#2]

ATF New Final Rule on Gun Sales: Breakdown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i63SlESvpTk

Posted: 5/5/2024 7:17:18 AM EDT

[#3]

I you sell or trade with the intent to make a profit, you need an ffl.

Posted: 5/5/2024 9:18:46 AM EDT

[#4]

There is no period of time defined. If you accumulate a collection over 50 years and have a hundred guns you one day decide to sell, would that be "in the business". With enough time, due to inflation, most would likely sell more more actual dollars than originally purchased. In some cases, those government "buy backs" might even show a profit on paper.

In reality, it will be a lot of selective enforcement; one's political affiliation and beliefs will be key components.

Posted: 5/5/2024 10:03:39 AM EDT

[#5]

It's just another stepping stone to more draconian restrictions. Disarming the citizens is a process. After this, the ATF will announce another restriction. And another, after that one.

Posted: 5/5/2024 3:10:17 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
I'm trying to understand it, but from the multiple videos and articles I've seen, I can't seem to find a clear answer.

View Quote

Stop giving clicks to YouTubers.
If only ATF had an website that people could vist to read the actual rule with Q&A's.

Under this rule, would I be engaged in the business of selling firearms, if I sell a single gun to a gun shop, whether I'm trading the gun in for a new one, or simply getting rid of it because I'm not using it/ don't care for it anymore?

View Quote

Seriously?

Attached File

Posted: 5/5/2024 3:21:09 PM EDT

[#7]

No.

Posted: 5/6/2024 10:55:20 PM EDT

[#8]

The new rule is 130 pages of ambiguity and confusion. There is nothing definitive. The ATF can now arbitrarily choose who to terrorize. They have unlimited legal resources at their disposal to make your life a living hell. How much spare cash do you have on hand for a good legal defense? The rule is full of text similar to that shown below, which I randomly copied from one of the sections.

" Whether a person is engaged in the business as a dealer under paragraph (a) of this section is a fact-specific inquiry. Selling large numbers of firearms or engaging or offering to engage in frequent transactions may be highly indicative of business activity. However, there is no minimum threshold number of firearms purchased or sold that triggers the licensing requirement. Similarly, there is no minimum number of transactions that determines whether a person is ''engaged in the business'' of dealing in firearms. For example, even a single firearm transaction or offer to engage in a transaction, when combined with other evidence (e.g., where a person represents to others a willingness and ability to purchase more firearms for resale), may require a license; whereas, a single isolated firearm transaction without such evidence would not require a license."

That really clears things up for Joe Gunowner. Selling even one gun can land you in hot water.

Posted: 5/6/2024 11:53:11 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:
There is no period of time defined. If you accumulate a collection over 50 years and have a hundred guns you one day decide to sell, would that be "in the business". With enough time, due to inflation, most would likely sell more more actual dollars than originally purchased. In some cases, those government "buy backs" might even show a profit on paper.

In reality, it will be a lot of selective enforcement; one's political affiliation and beliefs will be key components.

View Quote

the law specifically says liquidating a collection or part of a collection is not being a dealer

Posted: 5/6/2024 11:57:25 PM EDT

[#10]

Quote History

Quoted:
The new rule is 130 pages of ambiguity and confusion. There is nothing definitive. The ATF can now arbitrarily choose who to terrorize. They have unlimited legal resources at their disposal to make your life a living hell. How much spare cash do you have on hand for a good legal defense? The rule is full of text similar to that shown below, which I randomly copied from one of the sections.

" Whether a person is engaged in the business as a dealer under paragraph (a) of this section is a fact-specific inquiry. Selling large numbers of firearms or engaging or offering to engage in frequent transactions may be highly indicative of business activity. However, there is no minimum threshold number of firearms purchased or sold that triggers the licensing requirement. Similarly, there is no minimum number of transactions that determines whether a person is ''engaged in the business'' of dealing in firearms. For example, even a single firearm transaction or offer to engage in a transaction, when combined with other evidence (e.g., where a person represents to others a willingness and ability to purchase more firearms for resale), may require a license; whereas, a single isolated firearm transaction without such evidence would not require a license."

That really clears things up for Joe Gunowner. Selling even one gun can land you in hot water.

View Quote

read it again

it requires purchasing for resale or offering to purchase for resale

the law also specifically says selling guns from a personal collection does not require a dealer license.

Posted: 5/7/2024 12:16:58 AM EDT

[#11]

I wonder if C&R is dealer enough for some things.

Posted: 5/7/2024 12:54:02 AM EDT

[#12]

Fuck Biden and the atf assholes

Posted: 5/7/2024 1:18:26 AM EDT

[#13]

The point is to be “not understood”. It’s now whatever they say it is in any particular case they want to make.

Posted: 5/7/2024 1:25:41 AM EDT

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:

the law specifically says liquidating a collection or part of a collection is not being a dealer

View Quote

What is a collection? How long does a gun need to be owned to be part of “a collection”? If I buy 4 handguns I think I might like and decide I only want one of them next month? What if I do some work on it and later sell for more than I paid for it?

The whole thing is a complete crock of shit to turn what was a fairly cut-n-dry issue into a swamp that is intentionally vague and open to being bent towards whoever they take an interest in busting for “too many gunshow sales”.

Posted: 5/7/2024 8:35:24 AM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:

What is a collection? How long does a gun need to be owned to be part of “a collection”? If I buy 4 handguns I think I might like and decide I only want one of them next month? What if I do some work on it and later sell for more than I paid for it?

The whole thing is a complete crock of shit to turn what was a fairly cut-n-dry issue into a swamp that is intentionally vague and open to being bent towards whoever they take an interest in busting for “too many gunshow sales”.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

the law specifically says liquidating a collection or part of a collection is not being a dealer

What is a collection? How long does a gun need to be owned to be part of “a collection”? If I buy 4 handguns I think I might like and decide I only want one of them next month? What if I do some work on it and later sell for more than I paid for it?

The whole thing is a complete crock of shit to turn what was a fairly cut-n-dry issue into a swamp that is intentionally vague and open to being bent towards whoever they take an interest in busting for “too many gunshow sales”.

I do not disagree.

But it clearly articulates buying or intending to buy with intent to resell but it gives the example of intending as someone that enters a contract even verbal.

Of course that is vague as fuck and "intending" is bullshit. You either do something illegal or you don't.

It is all designed to be applied as they want to punish whom ever they want, like many other tyrannical laws making it so people don't know what is legal or not legal.