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SOM
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Posted: 1/16/2024 6:14:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Blain]
You really are getting 357 mag performance in a 9mm size auto pistol in most cases!
I think it makes for an ideal carry round. [youtube]shorts/YNBjow4OQHM[/youtube] (seems like shorts can't be embeded as videos in a message?) https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YNBjow4OQHM |
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Posted: 1/16/2024 6:34:24 PM EDT
[#1]
Welcome back to 2004!
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Posted: 1/16/2024 6:37:19 PM EDT
[#2]
I do too, but I used a Caliber X-Change for my P320
to try .357 Sig. True to what I've read online, very flat trajectory. Neat! |
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Posted: 1/16/2024 6:48:22 PM EDT
[#3]
I got a couple of Glock 32's when they first came out. I bought into the energy hype, but soon figured out that there wasn't really any gain in terminal performance. Just an increase in blast and flash. Just about any agency that adopted it has moved away from it.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2024 7:09:01 PM EDT
[#4]
 I like it. |
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Posted: 1/16/2024 7:36:09 PM EDT
[#5]
Bullet tech now days is such that the gap in performance between .40, .357 Sig and 9mm is very small. In 2002 .357 Sig was a great option with performance that eclipsed 9mm. 22 years later, not so much.
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SOM
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Posted: 1/16/2024 7:40:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Blain]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 18B30: Welcome back to 2004! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 18B30: Welcome back to 2004! It never seemed to get the attention or recognition it is worthy of. Ironic that 10mm is making a big come back now, 357 sig should def as well! Originally Posted By Ambridge77: I do too, but I used a Caliber X-Change for my P320 to try .357 Sig. True to what I've read online, very flat trajectory. Neat! Good point, super flat shooting (and tapered cases) are two other bonuses about the round! Originally Posted By Bradd_D: I got a couple of Glock 32's when they first came out. I bought into the energy hype, but soon figured out that there wasn't really any gain in terminal performance. Just an increase in blast and flash. Just about any agency that adopted it has moved away from it.  You soon figured that out, all on your own, from your extensive experience in first hand street shootings, did ya?  Energy matters (as does wound channel). That's like saying that 10mm and 9mm are the same. The 357 magnum 125gr sjhp cartridge has the highest record of one shot stops of any other handgun round, and was known as the "king of the street" for a reason. 9mm did not share that reputation (though by your logic it should be the same).... 357 Sig was designed to replicate the 357 magnum 125gr sjhp 1,450 fps loading, that had such stellar street performance, out of a 9mm sized auto pistol, and it succeeded with flying colors! 357 Sig likewise has a stellar reputation in street shootings, and that was with old bullet tech. The new 68gr Underwood defender has over 700fpe with a velocity at over 2,200 fps with a massive permanent wound channel! That's rifle like ballistics! Small caliber envy though, keep telling yourself they're "the same". Originally Posted By MK318: Bullet tech now days is such that the gap in performance between .40, .357 Sig and 9mm is very small. In 2002 .357 Sig was a great option with performance that eclipsed 9mm. 22 years later, not so much. Bullet tech makes 9mm better, but it also makes all the other calibers better as well, so the "gap" doesn't change. 9mm isn't "almost as good" as 357 Sig, it just sucks less as 357 Sig is also just as comparatively "better" than older rounds. See above about the underwood loading with rifle like ballistics. |
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Posted: 1/16/2024 7:43:48 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: It never seemed to get the attention or recognition it is worthy of. Ironic that 10mm is making a big come back now, 357 sig should def as well! Good point, super flat shooting (and tapered cases) are two other bonuses about the round! https://media2.giphy.com/media/3oz8xLd9DJq2l2VFtu/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952pn5djiztr4qg5sl9wccuvc8jp5k1qd1pdxwuc3zz&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g You soon figured that out, all on your own, from your extensive experience in first hand street shootings, did ya? Energy matters. That's like saying that 10mm and 9mm are the same. The 357 magnum 125gr sjhp cartridge has the highest record of one shot stops of any other handgun round, and was known as the "king of the street" for a reason. 9mm did not share that reputation (though by your logic it should be the same).... 357 sig likewise has a stellar reputation in street shootings, and that was with old bullet tech. The new 68gr Underwood defender has over 700fpe with a velocity at over 2,200 fps! That's rifle like ballistics! Small caliber envy though, keep telling yourself they're "the same". Bullet tech makes 9mm better, but it also makes all the other calibers better as well, so the "Gap" doesn't change. 9mm isn't "almost as good" as 357 sig, it just sucks less as 357 sig is also just as comperatively "better". See above about the underwood loading with rifle like ballistics.  |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2024 7:52:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: FlamingDragon]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MK318: Bullet tech now days is such that the gap in performance between .40, .357 Sig and 9mm is very small. In 2002 .357 Sig was a great option with performance that eclipsed 9mm. 22 years later, not so much. .40 S&W is an upgrade from 9mm, that is literally why it was invented, and it still is today. You can say 9mm bullet tech has caught up but you know what else has caught up, .40 S&W capacity. A .40 S&W used to have a capacity of 10 or 11 rounds but that changed with the M&P, it has a capacity of 15 rounds which is a good baseline. You can argue that 9mm has superior capacity and also a little bit less recoil but a 15+1 .40 S&W is a lot more firepower than a 17 or 18+1 9mm. Of course with the .40 S&W you can get .357 Sig conversion barrels and vice versa. I never really took a liking to it though. Like a previous poster mentioned, more flash, more blast, more loud, and smaller bullet. |
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SOM
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Posted: 1/16/2024 7:52:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bradd_D: Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bradd_D: Originally Posted By Blain: It never seemed to get the attention or recognition it is worthy of. Ironic that 10mm is making a big come back now, 357 sig should def as well! Good point, super flat shooting (and tapered cases) are two other bonuses about the round! https://media2.giphy.com/media/3oz8xLd9DJq2l2VFtu/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952pn5djiztr4qg5sl9wccuvc8jp5k1qd1pdxwuc3zz&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g You soon figured that out, all on your own, from your extensive experience in first hand street shootings, did ya? Energy matters. That's like saying that 10mm and 9mm are the same. The 357 magnum 125gr sjhp cartridge has the highest record of one shot stops of any other handgun round, and was known as the "king of the street" for a reason. 9mm did not share that reputation (though by your logic it should be the same).... 357 sig likewise has a stellar reputation in street shootings, and that was with old bullet tech. The new 68gr Underwood defender has over 700fpe with a velocity at over 2,200 fps! That's rifle like ballistics! Small caliber envy though, keep telling yourself they're "the same". Bullet tech makes 9mm better, but it also makes all the other calibers better as well, so the "Gap" doesn't change. 9mm isn't "almost as good" as 357 sig, it just sucks less as 357 sig is also just as comperatively "better". See above about the underwood loading with rifle like ballistics. Thanks for your intelligent and knowledgeable contribution. This isn't GD, btw. |
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SOM
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Posted: 1/16/2024 7:56:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Blain]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FlamingDragon: .40 S&W is an upgrade from 9mm, that is literally why it was invented, and it still is today. You can say 9mm bullet tech has caught up but you know what else has caught up, .40 S&W capacity. A .40 S&W used to have a capacity of 10 or 11 rounds but that changed with the M&P, it has a capacity of 15 rounds which is a good baseline. You can argue that 9mm has superior capacity and also a little bit less recoil but a 15+1 .40 S&W is a lot more firepower than a 17 or 18+1 9mm. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FlamingDragon: Originally Posted By MK318: Bullet tech now days is such that the gap in performance between .40, .357 Sig and 9mm is very small. In 2002 .357 Sig was a great option with performance that eclipsed 9mm. 22 years later, not so much. .40 S&W is an upgrade from 9mm, that is literally why it was invented, and it still is today. You can say 9mm bullet tech has caught up but you know what else has caught up, .40 S&W capacity. A .40 S&W used to have a capacity of 10 or 11 rounds but that changed with the M&P, it has a capacity of 15 rounds which is a good baseline. You can argue that 9mm has superior capacity and also a little bit less recoil but a 15+1 .40 S&W is a lot more firepower than a 17 or 18+1 9mm. Exactly. Bunch of small caliber syndrome apologists who use any circular reasoning to try to legitimatize how there is no better pistol caliber than 9mm. Like if bullet tech improves, it only benefits 9mm!  I never understood this caliber hate either, I love all calibers and appreciate each one for what it is. There are different strengths and weaknesses with each. I like different guns and calibers respectively for different purposes and uses. I don't get the, "I like this caliber so all others are bad" mindset. Some people truly are hopelessly tribal. It's not just a thing with Apple or Harley owners, gun owners are some of the worst offenders of group-think tribal loyalty! |
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Posted: 1/16/2024 8:01:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bradd_D]
[#11]
Why has everybody dumped it? Why didn't it replace 40 S&W? Who's still making a gun chambered in it? Does Sig still make a gun chambered in it? Why isn't USSOCOM using it? They use 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP.
Small caliber? You do realize 357 Sig is the same caliber as 9mm, right? Share your wisdom. |
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SOM
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Posted: 1/16/2024 8:11:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Blain]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bradd_D: Why has everybody dumped it? Why didn't it replace 40 S&W? Who's still making a gun chambered in it? Does Sig still make a gun chambered in it? Why isn't USSOCOM using it? They use 9mm, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. Small caliber? You do realize 357 Sig is the same caliber as 9mm, right? Share your wisdom. Do you consider 357 magnum "small caliber" because of its bullet diameter? Also, none of your anecdotes actually address it being a good round or not. I could care less what gov agencies do. Ironic that all your "examples" are anecdotes of what some gov organization did. Next time, use facts, logic, and reason to stake your case. The gel test video I posted in the OP speaks for itself. 357 magnum's street performance (which 357 Sig almost perfectly emulates) speaks for itself. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2024 8:17:01 PM EDT
[#13]
My favorite SD round
I was involved in a SD shooting about 11 years ago…at arms length 2 shots one in the abdomen just below the solar plexus, one right in the center of the chest he dropped instantly like something pulled him to the ground The paramedic that Checked me was a combat medic with 2 tours and said WTF did you shoot him with then looked around and said “dude you blew his fucking spine out” Hk p2000 double tap 147gr at 1350 fps I think |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2024 8:18:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: FlamingDragon]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wsr4325: My favorite SD round I was involved in a SD shooting about 11 years ago…at arms length 2 shots one in the abdomen just below the solar plexus, one right in the center of the chest he dropped instantly like something pulled him to the ground The paramedic that Checked me was a combat medic with 2 tours and said WTF did you shoot him with then looked around and said “dude you blew his fucking spine out” Hk p2000 double tap 147gr at 1350 fps I think That's awesome! Blew his back out! |
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Posted: 1/16/2024 8:18:46 PM EDT
[#15]
Cool now do 45ACP HST    .45 ACP Federal HST 230 gr Ammo Gel Test |
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SOM
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Posted: 1/16/2024 8:21:39 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Colt653: Cool now do 45ACP HST https://i.imgur.com/G9Zg7DU.jpg  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWW2Y-IZpyEYou prefer that to the 230 Ranger T or the 200gr Gold Dot at 1,100 fps? |
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SOM
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Posted: 1/16/2024 8:22:57 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wsr4325: My favorite SD round I was involved in a SD shooting about 11 years ago…at arms length 2 shots one in the abdomen just below the solar plexus, one right in the center of the chest he dropped instantly like something pulled him to the ground The paramedic that Checked me was a combat medic with 2 tours and said WTF did you shoot him with then looked around and said “dude you blew his fucking spine out” Hk p2000 double tap 147gr at 1350 fps I think That's awesome, thanks for the personal account!! Do you still carry a 357 Sig today? Why or why not? If so what gun / round? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2024 8:34:16 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: You prefer that to the 230 Ranger T or the 200gr Gold Dot at 1,100 fps? I have all three and I don't have any preference out of those three. They're all very good and they get the job done. I have to buy whatever is available and sometimes Federal isn't always available and neither is Ranger T. Don't sleep on plain old Winchester white box jhp because they're pretty decent for the price too. |
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Posted: 1/16/2024 8:35:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Your reply to me started with a personal attack and a Trump GIF. You took it to GD, bro.
I just shared my personal experience. Enjoy your dead caliber. |
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SOM
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Posted: 1/16/2024 8:49:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Blain]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bradd_D: Your reply to me started with a personal attack and a Trump GIF. You took it to GD, bro. I just shared my personal experience. Enjoy your dead caliber. Calling you wrong isn't a personal attack... Great job in stating and defending your case about 357 Sig being "bad". |
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Posted: 1/16/2024 9:00:09 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FlamingDragon: .40 S&W is an upgrade from 9mm, that is literally why it was invented, and it still is today. You can say 9mm bullet tech has caught up but you know what else has caught up, .40 S&W capacity. A .40 S&W used to have a capacity of 10 or 11 rounds but that changed with the M&P, it has a capacity of 15 rounds which is a good baseline. You can argue that 9mm has superior capacity and also a little bit less recoil but a 15+1 .40 S&W is a lot more firepower than a 17 or 18+1 9mm. Of course with the .40 S&W you can get .357 Sig conversion barrels and vice versa. I never really took a liking to it though. Like a previous poster mentioned, more flash, more blast, more loud, and smaller bullet. |
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Posted: 1/16/2024 9:17:10 PM EDT
[#22]
I love .357 Sig. Super fast and powerful. If you like the Sig, check out .40-Super. It’s pretty much an upsized .357 Sig with some loadings pushing nearly 1000 foot pounds of torque.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/16/2024 9:32:49 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Spiffums: glocks held 15 from the get go. Oh true, I didn't know that about the Glock 22. I never had a Glock, I owned a S&W 4006 and a Beretta 96 before I got the M&P. |
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Posted: 1/16/2024 9:32:49 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: You prefer that to the 230 Ranger T or the 200gr Gold Dot at 1,100 fps? I have killed big midwestern deer with the RA45TP, it works really well. I haven't seen any in a while, so HST it is. 
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Posted: 1/16/2024 10:19:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MK318]
[#25]
The argument that .40 and .357 Sig got better along with 9mm isn’t really accurate. 9mms problem was consistent expansion. The .357 Sig addressed this issue with velocity and in the case of the .40 it was mass. The trade off was lower capacity, more flash, more muzzle rise, more recoil and more wear and tear on components. The expansion issues with 9mm have been solved with better materials and manufacturing processes. The .40 and .357 Sig never had those issues so there wasn’t any real improvements with those rounds. Now with the 9mm you have a round that is on par with .40 and .357 Sig in terms of expansion without any of the downsides. If the claim you are making in regards to .40 and .357 Sig being better and improving along side the 9mm were accurate, none of the federal agencies around the US would have changed to the 9mm. Especially the FBI who were the reason we got the .40 and later .357 Sig rounds. There wouldn’t be a reason to change. The change happened though because that performance gap between the 9mm, .40 and .357 Sig no longer exists. This isn’t to say the .40 and .357 Sig are bad or not good rounds, they are good rounds but 9mm gets you more with less.
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Posted: 1/16/2024 10:35:28 PM EDT
[#26]
When I had my first Glock 22 I got a .357 Sig barrel to try out. A lot of blast and flash. I ended up selling the barrel with that Glock 22. I got a Gen 5 Glock 23 now, if I do I d a good deal on a barrel I would pick it up for a little fun factor. Wouldn't mind finding a Glock 31 or 32 compensated model in practically new condition I would grab it to add to the collection.
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Posted: 1/16/2024 11:35:42 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MK318: The argument that .40 and .357 Sig got better along with 9mm isn’t really accurate. 9mms problem was consistent expansion. The .357 Sig addressed this issue with velocity and in the case of the .40 it was mass. The trade off was lower capacity, more flash, more muzzle rise, more recoil and more wear and tear on components. The expansion issues with 9mm have been solved with better materials and manufacturing processes. The .40 and .357 Sig never had those issues so there wasn’t any real improvements with those rounds. Now with the 9mm you have a round that is on par with .40 and .357 Sig in terms of expansion without any of the downsides. If the claim you are making in regards to .40 and .357 Sig being better and improving along side the 9mm were accurate, none of the federal agencies around the US would have changed to the 9mm. Especially the FBI who were the reason we got the .40 and later .357 Sig rounds. There wouldn’t be a reason to change. The change happened though because that performance gap between the 9mm, .40 and .357 Sig no longer exists. This isn’t to say the .40 and .357 Sig are bad or not good rounds, they are good rounds but 9mm gets you more with less. Specifically .40 at the time of the big surge of adaptation, it defeated auto windshield glass to standard. Sectional density of .40 mixed with bullet tech at the time was limited. Only a few .45 loads passed the testing back then. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 12:05:35 AM EDT
[#28]
I have a .40 Sig p226 which now has a .357 Sig barrel. I've got the brass, the bullets and the powder. As soon as a I fix a split pipe in my well shack, I'll start loading.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:06:04 AM EDT
[#29]
I've always thought .357 Sig was an interesting concept and wanted to try one out.
There was some testing done a few years ago, and IIRC it was done by Speer. But now I can't find the video. The conclusion of the testing was basically that the terminal performance of all the handgun calibers was the same. Even .357 Magnum didn't offer any advantage. The energy on target doesn't make any difference so long as the load meets the penetration and expansion requirements. The only thing that matters is if you hit a vital structure, and cause incapacitation through blood loss or a CNS hit. None of the calibers have enough energy to create a temporary wound cavity with the same incapacitation as rifle rounds. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:57:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: DavidY]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: Thanks for your intelligent and knowledgeable contribution. This isn't GD, btw. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: Originally Posted By Bradd_D: Originally Posted By Blain: It never seemed to get the attention or recognition it is worthy of. Ironic that 10mm is making a big come back now, 357 sig should def as well! Good point, super flat shooting (and tapered cases) are two other bonuses about the round! https://media2.giphy.com/media/3oz8xLd9DJq2l2VFtu/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952pn5djiztr4qg5sl9wccuvc8jp5k1qd1pdxwuc3zz&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g You soon figured that out, all on your own, from your extensive experience in first hand street shootings, did ya? Energy matters. That's like saying that 10mm and 9mm are the same. The 357 magnum 125gr sjhp cartridge has the highest record of one shot stops of any other handgun round, and was known as the "king of the street" for a reason. 9mm did not share that reputation (though by your logic it should be the same).... 357 sig likewise has a stellar reputation in street shootings, and that was with old bullet tech. The new 68gr Underwood defender has over 700fpe with a velocity at over 2,200 fps! That's rifle like ballistics! Small caliber envy though, keep telling yourself they're "the same". Bullet tech makes 9mm better, but it also makes all the other calibers better as well, so the "Gap" doesn't change. 9mm isn't "almost as good" as 357 sig, it just sucks less as 357 sig is also just as comperatively "better". See above about the underwood loading with rifle like ballistics. Thanks for your intelligent and knowledgeable contribution. This isn't GD, btw. To be fair, you started it with the same marketing hype of gun magazines from the 1990s 357Sig is all but dead. Sure a couple law enforcement agencies still use it, but there are still law enforcement agencies not allowing optics and weapon lights. Doesn't mean they should be emulated. It's okay to be an enthusiast's cartridge. People still like 220 Swift! 10mm has become more popular than ever because people want it and have ways to use it besides making smol bois somewhat faster. It's just a very versatile cartridge (and weapon). Personally? I don't give a shit what y'all carry.  There have been several times I have carried regular federal 9BP. It ain't fast, it ain't heavy, it is fairly accurate across the board so I focus on hitting when I'm shooting at. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:01:25 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FlamingDragon: .40 S&W is an upgrade from 9mm, that is literally why it was invented, and it still is today. You can say 9mm bullet tech has caught up but you know what else has caught up, .40 S&W capacity. A .40 S&W used to have a capacity of 10 or 11 rounds but that changed with the M&P, it has a capacity of 15 rounds which is a good baseline. You can argue that 9mm has superior capacity and also a little bit less recoil but a 15+1 .40 S&W is a lot more firepower than a 17 or 18+1 9mm. Of course with the .40 S&W you can get .357 Sig conversion barrels and vice versa. I never really took a liking to it though. Like a previous poster mentioned, more flash, more blast, more loud, and smaller bullet. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FlamingDragon: Originally Posted By MK318: Bullet tech now days is such that the gap in performance between .40, .357 Sig and 9mm is very small. In 2002 .357 Sig was a great option with performance that eclipsed 9mm. 22 years later, not so much. .40 S&W is an upgrade from 9mm, that is literally why it was invented, and it still is today. You can say 9mm bullet tech has caught up but you know what else has caught up, .40 S&W capacity. A .40 S&W used to have a capacity of 10 or 11 rounds but that changed with the M&P, it has a capacity of 15 rounds which is a good baseline. You can argue that 9mm has superior capacity and also a little bit less recoil but a 15+1 .40 S&W is a lot more firepower than a 17 or 18+1 9mm. Of course with the .40 S&W you can get .357 Sig conversion barrels and vice versa. I never really took a liking to it though. Like a previous poster mentioned, more flash, more blast, more loud, and smaller bullet. As long as you don't count the Glock 22 which hit the streets 15 years prior, okay. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:11:25 AM EDT
[#32]
357 SIG is nice. I prefer 9x23mm Winchester. I carry a .38 Super. The world and I don't always agree on cartridges.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:12:52 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blain: It never seemed to get the attention or recognition it is worthy of. Ironic that 10mm is making a big come back now, 357 sig should def as well! Good point, super flat shooting (and tapered cases) are two other bonuses about the round! https://media2.giphy.com/media/3oz8xLd9DJq2l2VFtu/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952pn5djiztr4qg5sl9wccuvc8jp5k1qd1pdxwuc3zz&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g You soon figured that out, all on your own, from your extensive experience in first hand street shootings, did ya? Energy matters (as does wound channel). That's like saying that 10mm and 9mm are the same. The 357 magnum 125gr sjhp cartridge has the highest record of one shot stops of any other handgun round, and was known as the "king of the street" for a reason. 9mm did not share that reputation (though by your logic it should be the same).... 357 Sig was designed to replicate the 357 magnum 125gr sjhp 1,450 fps loading, that had such stellar street performance, out of a 9mm sized auto pistol, and it succeeded with flying colors! 357 Sig likewise has a stellar reputation in street shootings, and that was with old bullet tech. The new 68gr Underwood defender has over 700fpe with a velocity at over 2,200 fps with a massive permanent wound channel! That's rifle like ballistics! Small caliber envy though, keep telling yourself they're "the same". Bullet tech makes 9mm better, but it also makes all the other calibers better as well, so the "gap" doesn't change. 9mm isn't "almost as good" as 357 Sig, it just sucks less as 357 Sig is also just as comparatively "better" than older rounds. See above about the underwood loading with rifle like ballistics. In 1983 my department went to brand new S&W 686 4" guns with 125 grain hollow points. Why? Our Chief kept up with all kinds of reports on LEO shooting incidents around the country. In the previous two years the KSP (Kentucky State Police) had been carrying/shooting .357 revolvers with 125 grain hollow points. They had 18 incidents where their officers had to shoot someone. Seventeen of the incidents were one shot stops/incapacitation and only one required 2 shots. Not one results in a bullet exiting the torso of the people they shot. Every time I watch a video of an officer shooting someone 5, 6, 10 times with a 9MM I think of those 686's and the 125 grain hollow points. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:19:29 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By M1A4ME: In 1983 my department went to brand new S&W 686 4" guns with 125 grain hollow points. Why? Our Chief kept up with all kinds of reports on LEO shooting incidents around the country. In the previous two years the KSP (Kentucky State Police) had been carrying/shooting .357 revolvers with 125 grain hollow points. They had 18 incidents where their officers had to shoot someone. Seventeen of the incidents were one shot stops/incapacitation and only one required 2 shots. Not one results in a bullet exiting the torso of the people they shot. Every time I watch a video of an officer shooting someone 5, 6, 10 times with a 9MM I think of those 686's and the 125 grain hollow points. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By M1A4ME: Originally Posted By Blain: It never seemed to get the attention or recognition it is worthy of. Ironic that 10mm is making a big come back now, 357 sig should def as well! Good point, super flat shooting (and tapered cases) are two other bonuses about the round! https://media2.giphy.com/media/3oz8xLd9DJq2l2VFtu/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952pn5djiztr4qg5sl9wccuvc8jp5k1qd1pdxwuc3zz&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g You soon figured that out, all on your own, from your extensive experience in first hand street shootings, did ya? Energy matters (as does wound channel). That's like saying that 10mm and 9mm are the same. The 357 magnum 125gr sjhp cartridge has the highest record of one shot stops of any other handgun round, and was known as the "king of the street" for a reason. 9mm did not share that reputation (though by your logic it should be the same).... 357 Sig was designed to replicate the 357 magnum 125gr sjhp 1,450 fps loading, that had such stellar street performance, out of a 9mm sized auto pistol, and it succeeded with flying colors! 357 Sig likewise has a stellar reputation in street shootings, and that was with old bullet tech. The new 68gr Underwood defender has over 700fpe with a velocity at over 2,200 fps with a massive permanent wound channel! That's rifle like ballistics! Small caliber envy though, keep telling yourself they're "the same". Bullet tech makes 9mm better, but it also makes all the other calibers better as well, so the "gap" doesn't change. 9mm isn't "almost as good" as 357 Sig, it just sucks less as 357 Sig is also just as comparatively "better" than older rounds. See above about the underwood loading with rifle like ballistics. In 1983 my department went to brand new S&W 686 4" guns with 125 grain hollow points. Why? Our Chief kept up with all kinds of reports on LEO shooting incidents around the country. In the previous two years the KSP (Kentucky State Police) had been carrying/shooting .357 revolvers with 125 grain hollow points. They had 18 incidents where their officers had to shoot someone. Seventeen of the incidents were one shot stops/incapacitation and only one required 2 shots. Not one results in a bullet exiting the torso of the people they shot. Every time I watch a video of an officer shooting someone 5, 6, 10 times with a 9MM I think of those 686's and the 125 grain hollow points. You essentially have two different kinds of cops. The ones who were going to empty their gun, every single time. Doesn't matter if it's six shots, 9 or 18. If it's in there, it's going to be leaving in a hurry. Then you have the cops who don't go hog wild. Police department in my town had my shooting a few weeks ago. Three shots through a windshield into the suspect. They're carrying Glock 17s with P2s (don't know the ammo, but I'll ask). Suspect DRT.  Critical Incident Community Briefing - OIS December 14, 2023 |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 11:52:50 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MK318: The argument that .40 and .357 Sig got better along with 9mm isn’t really accurate. 9mms problem was consistent expansion. The .357 Sig addressed this issue with velocity and in the case of the .40 it was mass. The trade off was lower capacity, more flash, more muzzle rise, more recoil and more wear and tear on components. The expansion issues with 9mm have been solved with better materials and manufacturing processes. The .40 and .357 Sig never had those issues so there wasn’t any real improvements with those rounds. Now with the 9mm you have a round that is on par with .40 and .357 Sig in terms of expansion without any of the downsides. If the claim you are making in regards to .40 and .357 Sig being better and improving along side the 9mm were accurate, none of the federal agencies around the US would have changed to the 9mm. Especially the FBI who were the reason we got the .40 and later .357 Sig rounds. There wouldn’t be a reason to change. The change happened though because that performance gap between the 9mm, .40 and .357 Sig no longer exists. This isn’t to say the .40 and .357 Sig are bad or not good rounds, they are good rounds but 9mm gets you more with less. Of course there's still a performance gap. The reason for going back to the 9 has as much to do with cost as it does with performance. Cost of ammo and maintenance is less. New shooters Qual faster as well. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 12:21:50 PM EDT
[#36]
DBBS to me but I do like it.
(this thread turned around nicely!) |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 12:25:27 PM EDT
[#37]
This is an entertaining thread OP rabidly attacks anyone who says anything against .357Sig and cheers anyone who echos his need for validation. If you want to carry a .357Sig by all means carry one but do not get mad when people disagree with you that it is somehow this magical round that is perfect in every way.
One thing to always be thoughtful of when carrying a .357Sig is that although the Sig round uses the same bullet diameter as a 9mm the bullet is actually designed differently. So the bullet is designed to operate within a certain envelope so if you speed it up or slow it down outside of that window it will actually perform poorly or not as expected. We see this sometimes in gel test for 9mm when comparing standard pressure to +P or +P+ where the bullet does not expand, over penetrates or under penetrates when comparing basically the same cartridge but just different pressure. The reason for this is that bullets are designed to function within a specific window and getting out of that window the bullet does unexpected things. Back to the Sig this is something not many people will ever tell you but the Sig is notorious for this and more than a few LE agencies dropped the round for this reason. If your suspect is too far away, to close, or wearing just the right amount of clothing the Sig round has issues more often than any other service caliber because of the bullet design. The bullet design is designed for a fast moving 9mm but not too fast also and I looked for about 20 minutes for the article talking about it but could not find it where a public record was done by a LE agency that outlined what I just said. The one good thing about .357Sig in certain loads is it preforms way through barriers like auto glass but it is not immune to deflection like every other service cartridge. Remember at the end of the day all the handgun service calibers suck when you get down to it when it comes to actual stopping or knock down power. Also have fun with the $40+ a box of range training ammo I am sure you will get a lot of training in with the round
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OR, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2024 2:05:58 PM EDT
[#38]
I like 357 Sig...my G22 is converted to it.
I got 500 rounds of 125gr Gold Dot for $25/50 and PPU practice ammo is frequently $20/50. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 2:25:59 PM EDT
[#39]
Did someone say .357 Sig? My favorite 9mm.
Carry what you're most comfortable with, I'll take the extra bark, bite, and oomph. With the right recoil assembly and ammo, recoil and flash become non-issues.  
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Posted: 1/17/2024 2:33:44 PM EDT
[#40]
One can easily tell the difference in velocity in pistol rounds shooting steel at 100yds. Especially against .45.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 2:34:00 PM EDT
[#41]
If I was a LEO, I think I'd be much more concerned that my ammo matches my partner's than the caliber.
JMO |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 2:47:40 PM EDT
[#42]
Only thing missing from my legion collection is a 229 in 357
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Posted: 1/17/2024 2:59:36 PM EDT
[#43]
I had a Glock 33 many years ago that I liked. I'd have another .357 Sig if I got back into reloading. I wonder if Glock will make a Gen 5 .357, or if conversion barrels will work in the .40 cal guns(by dropping in an aftermarket .357 barrel for any other generation of Gllock).
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2024 4:19:35 PM EDT
[#44]
It's ok if you prefer 9mm, but any mention of bullet technology or magical 9mm ammo is cope. 9mm +p+ that is nearly bursting your barrel is not even gonna hit 450 ft lbs of energy. STANDARD PRESSURE .357sig comfortably can hit over 600 ft lbs of energy. My Glock 33 holds one less bullet than a Glock 26. My Glock 31 holds two less bullets than a Glock 17. I think 9mm is great too, but the pure unadulterated levels of cope to saying 9mm can even come close to the power of .357sig is not based in reality.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2024 5:09:12 PM EDT
[#45]
I had a G35 with a 6" .357 SIG barrel. It was cool.
I never chronographed it, though. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2024 5:18:33 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 2apatriot: I've always thought .357 Sig was an interesting concept and wanted to try one out. There was some testing done a few years ago, and IIRC it was done by Speer. But now I can't find the video. The conclusion of the testing was basically that the terminal performance of all the handgun calibers was the same. Even .357 Magnum didn't offer any advantage. The energy on target doesn't make any difference so long as the load meets the penetration and expansion requirements. The only thing that matters is if you hit a vital structure, and cause incapacitation through blood loss or a CNS hit. None of the calibers have enough energy to create a temporary wound cavity with the same incapacitation as rifle rounds. I once read some kind of technical report about the performance of WWII submachinegun rounds. I seem to recall it staying that the German 9mm rounds tended to shatter bones, due to a higher energy and higher energy density (kinetic energy per unit of cross-sectional area). The U.S. .45ACP rounds tended to come to rest against bones without breaking them. I kick myself for not saving that report, because I'd like to read it again. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 5:53:23 PM EDT
[#47]
I've got one, a P226 trade-in. The caliber's easy to shoot but it's one of those "practice with the 9mm barrel and then pop in the .357 for carry" kinds of guns, at best. The one truism that seems to be developing in handgun defense is that "all handguns suck as stoppers", so I'm not sure a discussion warrants poop slinging in a tech forum or anywhere else.
More practically, since it's a PITA to reload for, I will just shoot a straight wall caliber 99% of the time. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 6:31:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MK318]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN: Of course there's still a performance gap. The reason for going back to the 9 has as much to do with cost as it does with performance. Cost of ammo and maintenance is less. New shooters Qual faster as well. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 03RN: Originally Posted By MK318: The argument that .40 and .357 Sig got better along with 9mm isn’t really accurate. 9mms problem was consistent expansion. The .357 Sig addressed this issue with velocity and in the case of the .40 it was mass. The trade off was lower capacity, more flash, more muzzle rise, more recoil and more wear and tear on components. The expansion issues with 9mm have been solved with better materials and manufacturing processes. The .40 and .357 Sig never had those issues so there wasn’t any real improvements with those rounds. Now with the 9mm you have a round that is on par with .40 and .357 Sig in terms of expansion without any of the downsides. If the claim you are making in regards to .40 and .357 Sig being better and improving along side the 9mm were accurate, none of the federal agencies around the US would have changed to the 9mm. Especially the FBI who were the reason we got the .40 and later .357 Sig rounds. There wouldn’t be a reason to change. The change happened though because that performance gap between the 9mm, .40 and .357 Sig no longer exists. This isn’t to say the .40 and .357 Sig are bad or not good rounds, they are good rounds but 9mm gets you more with less. Of course there's still a performance gap. The reason for going back to the 9 has as much to do with cost as it does with performance. Cost of ammo and maintenance is less. New shooters Qual faster as well. The FBI published their findings in regards to making the change to 9mm years ago. As I recall in that document cost was not considered a significant factor. As a with a fed agency ammunition cost is pretty far down the list they buy so much of it their bulk discount makes even 10mm cost effective. Sure there is a performance gap between .40, .357 Sig and 9mm just like there is a performance gap between Pagani, Ferrari and a Lamborghini. You’re just going to have spend a lot of money and try very hard to find it. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 6:34:16 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ken_mays: The one truism that seems to be developing in handgun defense is that "all handguns suck as stoppers",. This can’t be repeated enough. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2024 7:19:04 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StillGonnaSendIt: Only thing missing from my legion collection is a 229 in 357 You missed it. I had one listed here for a week. Sold. |
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