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Posted: 10/22/2019 5:32:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Fooboy]
Target focus.
Better accuracy across the board. Speed is the same up close with some practice, better at medium/longer distance. Im converting people left and right. When I go back to shooting irons I'm better at it after shooting dots, but wonder why you'd want to stay there. If you're thinking about it - jump in with both feet. - Zero distance chart - 1.5Y recap - Water test 1 - Water test 2 - Can't find dot, poor irons alignment - Rear Irons Placement - Universal Truths - Target Focus at 40Y - Pistol marksmanship, Phantom flinch |
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Isaiah 1:18 - "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD: "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"
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Hey, to each their own. I tried it and hated it but the popularity is clearly increasing.
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Go to your safe place.
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For a target shooter, sure.
Daily carry? massive printing and holster issues; also engagements are likely going to be "bad breath" range hardly conducive to aiming with optics. |
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"The only real difference between the men and the boys, is the number and size, and cost of their toys."
NRA Life, GOA Life, CSSA Life, SAF Life, NRA Certified Instructor |
Didn't make me more accurate from far or faster close plus concealed matters and I dont need batteries on a pistol. Glad it works for you.
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So wrong. I see the most benefits in dynamic shooting / shooting on the move / competition / drills.
I could care less about shooting a tiny group. But it's easier too. As for CCW. Attached File |
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Isaiah 1:18 - "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD: "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"
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Cool, you managed to quote yourself
I guess you should have been more precise what you meant by optics, then; or I in my response. I've got full-size long eye-relief scopes on some of my handguns, and that's what I think of when someone says "optics on a pistol" |
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"The only real difference between the men and the boys, is the number and size, and cost of their toys."
NRA Life, GOA Life, CSSA Life, SAF Life, NRA Certified Instructor |
Originally Posted By Circuits:
For a target shooter, sure. Daily carry? massive printing and holster issues; also engagements are likely going to be "bad breath" range hardly conducive to aiming with optics. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Circuits:
For a target shooter, sure. Daily carry? massive printing and holster issues; also engagements are likely going to be "bad breath" range hardly conducive to aiming with optics. Originally Posted By Greenspan:
Didn't make me more accurate from far or faster close plus concealed matters and I dont need batteries on a pistol. Glad it works for you. ETA: see your followup now. Why were you thinking LER scope on a carry gun? |
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I'm not sold on it just yet. Maybe after a new generation micro dots comes out that offers better optical clarity, longer batter life, better mounting systems, increased durability, and less weight. I can wait.
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Until they get to the relialibility standard that Aimpoint/Trijicon has for their rifle optics, not putting an unreliable digital sight for carrying.
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Liberate Hong Kong
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Originally Posted By Fooboy:
So wrong. I see the most benefits in dynamic shooting / shooting on the move / competition / drills. I could care less about shooting a tiny group. But it's easier too. As for CCW. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/113559/2B8B18C2-F84D-465C-A505-57CA48FE6BEB_jpeg-1134056.JPG View Quote Anyone else seeing the shift from marksmanship to "...oh well, I have 16 rounds remaining and a spare mag."? From the comfort, safety, and controlled conditions of your recliner, the local range or running around shooting big targets while pretending to clear rooms, sure, why not? But in the real world, sights don't need batteries. |
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Too much coin, I'm not yet sold, and for my uses of a pistol, it's not going to bring more to the table than $600 of 9mm ammo and some range time won't do better.
I'll reconsider them in a few years if they have stuck around and have been improved and cost reduced. Right now, iron sights work for me, are utterly reliable, and I've got other monetary priorities for my gun fund. |
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My complaint is how they get dirty. I don't like looking through dirty glasses. Dont like looking through a dirty windshield. Don't like dirty eyepro. The little red dot right by the ejection port on my guns likes to get dirty, too.
This weekend, I went from perfectly clean red dot to can't see a damn thing through it in 46 rounds. You know how many time's I've had to stop and wipe off my iron sights? Never. Tens of thousands of rounds and never had them get dirty. |
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Tom Sawyer.
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Originally Posted By giantpune:
My complaint is how they get dirty. I don't like looking through dirty glasses. Dont like looking through a dirty windshield. Don't like dirty eyepro. The little red dot right by the ejection port on my guns likes to get dirty, too. This weekend, I went from perfectly clean red dot to can't see a damn thing through it in 46 rounds. You know how many time's I've had to stop and wipe off my iron sights? Never. Tens of thousands of rounds and never had them get dirty. View Quote You're doing it wrong. #1 reason to mill dot rear of irons. Ive not had to clean my glass once. https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Why-you-should-mill-your-rear-iron-in-front-of-your-red-dot/4-189626/ |
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Isaiah 1:18 - "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD: "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"
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Originally Posted By Fooboy:
@giantpune You're doing it wrong. #1 reason to mill dot rear of irons. Ive not had to clean my glass once. https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Why-you-should-mill-your-rear-iron-in-front-of-your-red-dot/4-189626/ View Quote And how do you keep your glass clean on a gun you supposedly carry 24/7? Regular dirt and bellybutton lint will end up collecting on the glass unless you're a liar or you work in a clean room. |
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try a good sight like an RMR at night... much better than tritium...change out the battery on your birth day... I use one for steel challenge where the local match is shot into a concrete "bunker" much easier to see a dot than front sight in varying light...with a little practice as soon as the pistol is presented, the dot is on target
IMHO... a good service pistol with RMR and mounted light is the best answer for a defensive pistol... with shortened Heinie Slant Pro sights, I can still see the irons if a catastrophic failure should occur (not supressor height) on my G17 with Trijicon RMR |
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I suggest that anyone who is arguing against RDS on pistols to take the time to watch these videos.
Making the Switch to Handgun RDS RDS for Duty Use Natural RDS Dot Movement and Sight Picture Cowitnessing with Handgun Optics |
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I don’t think I could go back to regular sights, huge improvements in speed and accuracy for me, YUGE.
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I think in time handgun optics will be as common as rifle optics. There have been recent big military and federal police contracts for handguns that can mount red dots.
Years ago, scopes were not that reliable and most hunters wanted open or peep sights on rifles. Leupold and Weaver changed that for mass market hunters. I think reliable red dots for concealed and duty handgun carry will continue to advance similar to what happened with rifle scopes. |
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Some people find them a great advantage others less so, and it depends on what the intent is for your pistol.
I can’t deny they may be the wave of the future, but I am simply not there yet. I like to shoot old classics with small iron sights and do pretty well with them. I have casually tried a dot, and understand it requires thousands of draw and fired to really fully gain its advantages. I am just not ready to invest in that yet. When my eyes go down hill perhaps but right now despite my. Age, I can still see sights clearly. |
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Gave red dot a chance. Practicing did not help , after 6,000 rounds I came to the conclusion- irons is faster than chasing a damn dot. Just another fad
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Originally Posted By King_Mud:
Concealment issues with a dot that adds very little to the profile and is in an area that's pretty much dead space anyway? ETA: see your followup now. Why were you thinking LER scope on a carry gun? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By King_Mud:
Originally Posted By Circuits:
For a target shooter, sure. Daily carry? massive printing and holster issues; also engagements are likely going to be "bad breath" range hardly conducive to aiming with optics. Originally Posted By Greenspan:
Didn't make me more accurate from far or faster close plus concealed matters and I dont need batteries on a pistol. Glad it works for you. ETA: see your followup now. Why were you thinking LER scope on a carry gun? |
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I have no intention of going back to irons ever. There are so many advantages. If you can't shoot a dot well you probably don't shoot your irons as well as you think you do.
Oh, and recently I have seen more irons falling out of dovetails than trijicon red dots failing. |
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My department recently approved red dots for our new G17 MOS pistols. Most of the guys, myself included, who are very into guns are switching. The only officers not doing it are the ones who are too cheap, or the idiots who never practice/shoot with their weapons.
I personally think red dots on pistols are the future. 20-30 years ago, everyone thought irons were just fine for rifles. Now, no serious military or police unit would even think about rifles without optics. Pistols are going the same way. |
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Originally Posted By Overkill777:
I'm not sold on it just yet. Maybe after a new generation micro dots comes out that offers better optical clarity, longer batter life, better mounting systems, increased durability, and less weight. I can wait. View Quote You may want to re evaluate your statement. Edited because I'm not in GD |
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Prop 87 WARNING: The state of California contains politicians known to citizens to cause subjugation and/or infringement upon their rights, and injustice or other harm to their liberty.
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Originally Posted By giantpune:
My complaint is how they get dirty. I don't like looking through dirty glasses. Dont like looking through a dirty windshield. Don't like dirty eyepro. The little red dot right by the ejection port on my guns likes to get dirty, too. This weekend, I went from perfectly clean red dot to can't see a damn thing through it in 46 rounds. You know how many time's I've had to stop and wipe off my iron sights? Never. Tens of thousands of rounds and never had them get dirty. View Quote Tape up the front of the window and try it. |
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Originally Posted By giantpune:
Tell FN and glock they both did it wrong then. Maybe they'll hire you as a consultant. And how do you keep your glass clean on a gun you supposedly carry 24/7? Regular dirt and bellybutton lint will end up collecting on the glass unless you're a liar or you work in a clean room. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By giantpune:
Originally Posted By Fooboy:
@giantpune You're doing it wrong. #1 reason to mill dot rear of irons. Ive not had to clean my glass once. https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Why-you-should-mill-your-rear-iron-in-front-of-your-red-dot/4-189626/ And how do you keep your glass clean on a gun you supposedly carry 24/7? Regular dirt and bellybutton lint will end up collecting on the glass unless you're a liar or you work in a clean room. I’ve had to rely on co-witnessed BUIS on my Benelli a few times before because the RMR emitter got too much crap in it and it couldn’t be cleared by blowing in it. I can only imagine how full of shit it’d get being EDC on a pistol. I’m sure an enclosed system like the Steiner MRS would solve that, but that might get bulky. |
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When I can buy one out of the box, including the optic and a good compatible holster with no fuss for a sane price, I'll be all about it. Until then, iron sights are doing just fine for me. I really don't like having to fuck around with my guns after I buy them. Hell even changing out normal sights annoys me.
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I'm sold on it, I'm way faster and quicker with my milled glock. Zero down side, I use the same holster I have for 6 years, my raven vg2.
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Originally Posted By Frost7:
I carry an M9a3 almost daily and that thing gets filled with shit that needs knocking out with a brush on the regular. In and under the hammer, in the trigger, in the muzzle, on the guide rod, in the lanyard loop... I’ve had to rely on co-witnessed BUIS on my Benelli a few times before because the RMR emitter got too much crap in it and it couldn’t be cleared by blowing in it. I can only imagine how full of shit it’d get being EDC on a pistol. I’m sure an enclosed system like the Steiner MRS would solve that, but that might get bulky. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Frost7:
Originally Posted By giantpune:
Originally Posted By Fooboy:
@giantpune You're doing it wrong. #1 reason to mill dot rear of irons. Ive not had to clean my glass once. https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Why-you-should-mill-your-rear-iron-in-front-of-your-red-dot/4-189626/ And how do you keep your glass clean on a gun you supposedly carry 24/7? Regular dirt and bellybutton lint will end up collecting on the glass unless you're a liar or you work in a clean room. I’ve had to rely on co-witnessed BUIS on my Benelli a few times before because the RMR emitter got too much crap in it and it couldn’t be cleared by blowing in it. I can only imagine how full of shit it’d get being EDC on a pistol. I’m sure an enclosed system like the Steiner MRS would solve that, but that might get bulky. |
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"If you cant do something smart, do something right"
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If one can't draw and consistently rapid-fire hit a pie plate at 7 yards using iron sights, one needs to practice more.
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The object is to have your sword wiped clean and resheathed before your enemy's head hits the ground.
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One word, Brace
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I non vis assentire
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Freedom grows from blood soaked soil...
TX, USA
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Originally Posted By 762AR25:
Hey, to each their own. I tried it and hated it but the popularity is clearly increasing. View Quote |
Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
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it's the wave of the future, but I'm not super interested in being an early adopter. I built one up a few years ago but when I was competition shooting. I realized I would need to go full Open division or switch back and forth between sights, and I wasn't ready for that.
Now that I'm not serious about competition I'm more into it. Tried a 507c on my Flux 17 and was easy to hit 4" steel at 50 yards. turns a pistol into a PDW. I may buy that new shield with a dot to see how it goes for a while before mounting dots to other pistols. |
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If you live long enough into the Great Tomfuckery to get to the point that pistol commonality is critical to survival, you've defied so many odds that you're basically a fucking wizard-Deadtired
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If you're good at something, never do it for free.
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If you're good at something, never do it for free.
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First, what RMR do I want for my Glock 19.5? Second, who do I send it to for the cut that won't butcher it and try and blame me somehow after? Third, what sights for co-witness should I get? Big fan of Trijicon HD and others that look similar. |
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I’m all about it.
Except I can buy another pistol for what the red dot costs. |
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Freedom grows from blood soaked soil...
TX, USA
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Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
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Originally Posted By Getnlwr:
Longer battery life? Jpoint and Doctor Optics battery life is measured in Years. I have one with the same battery in it for over 4 years. They are also feather weight for what they are. German precision lenses. You may want to re evaluate your statement. Edited because I'm not in GD View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Getnlwr:
Originally Posted By Overkill777:
I'm not sold on it just yet. Maybe after a new generation micro dots comes out that offers better optical clarity, longer batter life, better mounting systems, increased durability, and less weight. I can wait. You may want to re evaluate your statement. Edited because I'm not in GD There is definitely room for improvement. Advancements in electronic devices happen quickly. |
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Originally Posted By JBecker_72:
First, what RMR do I want for my Glock 19.5? Second, who do I send it to for the cut that won't butcher it and try and blame me somehow after? Third, what sights for co-witness should I get? Big fan of Trijicon HD and others that look similar. View Quote RMR or Holosun 507/508 is you’re on a budget. Send it to Primary Machine. |
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If you're good at something, never do it for free.
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If you're good at something, never do it for free.
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Originally Posted By army75th:
Gave red dot a chance. Practicing did not help , after 6,000 rounds I came to the conclusion- irons is faster than chasing a damn dot. Just another fad View Quote 1) Your presentation is trash. 2) You’re just shooting, and not training. |
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If you're good at something, never do it for free.
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This was at 5 and 100 Y recovering from rotator cuff surgery last year and I was still new at it. Only gotten better.
Testing has showing shooting on the move and complex drills - my scores / times are much better with dot. Failed To Load Title |
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Isaiah 1:18 - "Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD: "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow"
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Seen a few come off of guns during matches, seen a few lose the dot due to battery problems. I think they're a good idea but they aren't quite there yet. I'd like to see easier battery access, a sealed emitter and they need to get tougher across the board before I'll bother with one for daily carry.
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Originally Posted By ken_mays:
Seen a few come off of guns during matches, seen a few lose the dot due to battery problems. I think they're a good idea but they aren't quite there yet. I'd like to see easier battery access, a sealed emitter and they need to get tougher across the board before I'll bother with one for daily carry. View Quote Dead batteries? Absolutely... Right now the favorite Carry Optics MRDS is the DPP and Leupold secures the battery connection with tape rather than being soldered down and this is a common issue. For a carry gun just run an RMR or Holosun 507/508 so you won’t have that issue. |
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If you're good at something, never do it for free.
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Took a class with Sage Dynamics.
Opened my eyes, and Aaron is one of the best instructors I've ever worked with. You're either willing to train and learn how to use the system, or you aren't. If you aren't, don't bother. All the gripes I hear about the concept are from people who haven't put in any serious effort, and given up. If you are willing, it's superior on virtually every level. RMR Type 2 for duty/carry use, change your battery once a year. Simple. |
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