Look at these things.





So damn gorgeous and cool.





Now those are some proper space guns.





Some of you who have noticed my recent activities in GD may have seen this coming, but here it is! Obviously this is gonna be slightly different than the Desecrated Wheelguns projects, but it sprouts from the same undiagnosed ‘tism.

The purpose of this project is to develop a fun 9mm range/target plinker, in a style I enjoy, with the features I want.

I’d been vaguely aware of Olympic/ISSF/NRA Bullseye/Precision-style pistols for a while now but recently became far more intrigued by them when brainstorming for my next build. As a fan of unusual/abnormal pistols, the sleek appearance of the European-style blasters immediately appealed to me. After an extensive amount of further research though, I came to the determination that one of these commercially available models was not something I’d want, which was arrived at for the following two reasons:

1. They’re all only offered in either .22 LR or .32 S&W Long Fuck-You-Eurotrash-Subjects-And-Your-Freedoms Wadcutter, and…

2. They’re all about $3,000.

To be clear, I’m not opposed to buying a .22 handgun - the Apache Pug is a .22, albeit a .22 Magnum. I’m also not opposed to, nor - to no one’s greater surprise than my own - unable to afford a pistol in the $3,000 range. It turns out, however, I’m not willing to buy a gun which checks both boxes just for the purposes of having fun. But I also wasn’t willing to give up on my desire to own something similar just yet.

So, I started to note what about the production pistols most interested me. Turns out it’s a fairly simple list:

- Sleek, steep grip angle with ultra-low bore axis, which leads me to…
- Enclosed blowback receiver without reciprocating slide, for a fixed sighting system and linear recoil profile with minimal muzzle flip
- Magwell forward of the trigger, mostly for aesthetic reasons

Armed with this list of desires, I went searching for a firearm chambered in 9mm that matched my stipulations. Originally I got caught on the Ruger PC Charger for a bit, but realized it was too bulky to truly be used as a pistol as I was wanting. I briefly looked at the Henry Homesteader, but had a similar impression to the Ruger PC and some less-than-stellar reviews dissuaded me. I finally stumbled across a review comparing the Homesteader to the long-discontinued Marlin Camp 9 carbine, and knew I’d found the solution.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlin_Camp_Carbine

Blowback-operated 9mm without reciprocating slide? Check. Magwell forward of the trigger? Check. Relatively more compact, lighter receiver than the Ruger or Henry? Check. Everything else can be handled with custom work.

I jumped on GunBroker and nabbed a decent looking sample that included four magazines. Thanks to Colorado’s new unconstitutional 72-hour waiting period I was only just able to bring the gun home today. True to form, immediately upon getting home I field stripped the rifle and began modifying it



During the initial wait for the selling FFL to ship the gun to my LGS I purchased an optic rail, replacement recoil buffer, and replacement extra-power recoil spring, all from Power Custom. The optic rail was as simple as removing the four plug screws from the drilled and tapped receiver and tightening the rail down.



It’s a good thing I listened to the advice of other owners on various forums and bought a new recoil buffer, cause the one that came in the gun crumbled upon attempting to remove it from the receiver.



Pop the new Power Custom buffer in, slide the extra-power recoil spring onto the guide, and put everything back together. About as easy as it gets.



For now it’s going back into the original wood stock. I’ll be trying to get to the range this weekend for an initial test and evaluation, and to check to make sure the gun is working.



From here, I’ll be looking for an optic suitable for a target pistol (because #FuckIronSights), and talking with my gunsmith about chopping the barrel down to about 4” and getting a custom pistol grip made out of some nice fancy wood.

More to come, but hopefully this has been an interesting start to a slightly different kind of handgun build!

I hate to be "that guy" but is there a legal way to turn a rifle into a handgun?

For $200, sure.

OP, you may find the Ruger Charger was bulkier than the Marlin b/c it's not got an underweight blowback bolt as the Marlin's reputation claims.

The receiver will have to be legally registered as a SBR to do what I want with it because the ATF is lame and gay.



Quite possible. To be honest I don’t have much experience with 9mm blowback actions, so won’t have much of a reference point. Mostly my concern is making sure the felt recoil remains as straight-back linear as possible, with minimal muzzle flip. We shall see!

Need more than 4" for barrel.  Go at least 5.25"

Looks like the bore axis will be super high or have a trigger linkage. Add $200 for tax stamp.


Agree with new buffer, that part of your post makes perfect sense.

Can't blame ATF on this one, you have to blame Congress - ATF was created by the NFA.

OP, I don't know what you're intending for your end goal here, but Marlin Camp 9s aren't made anymore:

1) There is declining parts availability down the road.  Buffers & recoil springs are available for now, & 3-D printing may pick up the slack, but it's a dead end & never coming back b/c Ruger now owns Marlin;
2) Good condition Marlins will continue to appreciate in value, particularly as it's certain they'll never be made again;
3) Both the .45 & the 9mm versions were known for cracking stocks, likely when the buffer went bad, b/c of high bolt speed, Marlin having used a fairly lightweight bolt w/ short travel in their design, resulting in fairly sharp felt recoil.

You've already dismissed the Ruger Charger as too bulky for your project, and we don't know what that entails, but you admit you're not very familiar w/ the blowback PCC market.  You might make another survey before chopping; the tax stamp can always be refunded if unused.

I'd take a hard look at the Ruger Charger again, particularly w/ it field stripped and see if there's something you can make of it w/o the tax stamp.  I'd also look carefully at the HiPoint carbines & pistols, and the High Tower Armory bullpup stock that comes w/ a separate magwell & trigger linkage.  You might also look at the Henry Homesteader, an attempted wood & steel replacement for the Marlin in the PCC space, and likely better engineered.

Just suggestions, it's your Marlin & your money, I always enjoy your projects; I've had my own goofy builds and will again.

Yeah, this is my thought as well. As said, your gun and your money. I'd probably keep it as is or sell it and buy something else.  Don't think I'd cut up a perfectly good Marlin like that one.

I'd look at the charger again and maybe even a VZ-61 scorpion.  Yeah, I know .380 and .32, lol.  Possibly even a  tec-9 or some other ghetto blaster and take it apart and make some kind wooden contraption for it to fit in.

Good luck, will be following to see the end result.

Why 5.25? The 4” measurement was just a rough estimation, I can go a bit longer. I don’t want it too long though cause it’ll already be nose-heavy enough for a pistol.



Not so. With a steep grip angle, a pistol grip can be made such that the beavertail of the grip (where the webbing of the firing hand is) will be just about even with the centerline of the bore, similar to the Pardini/Walther/other Euro pistols, without making it an uncomfortable reach to the trigger

Evaluation of the Ruger PC included hands-on assessment with a sample that was available at one of my LGS. It’s just too big and heavy to be turned into an actual pistol. I also considered the Homesteader, VZ-61, Tec-9, and several other possibilities - all had their own unacceptable issues as well. The only gun that met all of my requirements was the Marlin.

Trust me, if I could have purchased a different new-production firearm to use as a base, I would have. Plus, think of it this way: after I butcher this one, the value of the others will increase that much more

Fair enough. Let the butchering begin, lol.

What were the issues, or is that giving too much away?

Not at all! Mostly it was just dimensional/weight unacceptability, and reported issues with reliability for some of the models. The construction of the Marlin lends itself best to the ergonomics and construction of the final pistol that I want. For example, the Tec-9 and VZ-61 wouldn’t allow me to place a pistol grip where I want that would achieve a low enough bore axis and comfortable reach to the trigger

But the grip angle...

I used to shoot with someone that had one of those Pardinis.  It was a really, really nice pistol.

I’m thinking about getting a block of laminated wood to have the grip made out of. Might be more interesting than just one solid piece…

Also, I’m open to recommendations for project names. Nothing’s come to mind yet

A name with European (British/Bond reference) flair and reflects the fact a Marlin was downsized to make it:


The Mar-Teeny 9mm Target Pistol

Less than stellar reviews, oh my cookies!

PC Charger is quite nose-heavy, in large part because of the weight of the takedown mechanism. It's obviously too late now, but Taccom sell a replacement barrel for it, which deletes the takedown.

At one time, I toyed with an idea of building a "Compact" version of PC Charger, with the pistol grip relocated further forward, under the receiver. I've made a version previously that I called "Borchardt", which changed the layout to something akin to an Uzi, KelTec CP-33 or 1893 Borchardt: magazine in the grip, and a large protrusion in the rear (link below). It was generally unsatisfactory for many reasons, but I developed a trigger linkage and a modified fire control for it. Tinkering with it persuaded me that although it was a great memetic gun, the trigger would remain unsatisfactory forever. I basically created a typical bullpup, with a typical result. Still, the way the pistol grip was set up in Ruger PC clearly gave up too much space: an inch and a half could probably be found with some custom work.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ruger/comments/x19oxf/ruger_pc_borchardt_experimental/

Not a bad idea! I’d probably go with more traditional Martini spelling. I’ll add it to the list!



Nice work! I’m also curious if we’ll eventually see a 9mm LC and if it’ll replace the PC guns

Busted my ass to get work done today so range time is tomorrow. I rifled through my old parts pile and found the Holosun tube sight that I’d originally purchased for the Schofield. I’ve temporarily thrown it on the Marlin for the range tomorrow just to function check the gun. I stress temporarily, as the optic’s just too large and the mount is too high for the eventual final product. I’ll find a smaller/lower optic soon enough. More tomorrow!

If you want a weird looking optic, NcStar/Vism has a flip up pistol red dot.

I've got a Baikal IZH-46M air pistol. With the 11" barrel and the mass of the cocking lever under it the thing is very nose heavy. The anatomical grips counteract that a lot, especially the palm shelf. Counterweights might be useful or even  tungsten putty.
But those type grips are designed for one handed shooting only.
It would be interesting to design a grip that had the support features of a target pistol's grip for both hands allowing two handed shooting.

Perhaps making the thumb rest lower so that your support hand thumb uses it and your strong hand thumb lays over it, as in the freestyle thumbs forward grip. USPSA Open guns have "gas pedals" that are thumb rests for the support thumb. Couple that with a palm support for the support hand, since modern grip technique transfers almost all recoil control to the support hand. Thus the support hand grip does what the classic anatomical grips do for the strong hand.  

If the pistol's grip was purpose built to optimize freestyle shooting, without concern for a fast draw or ambi shooting, and no restrictions related to containing the magazine...a radically different grip might result. Anatomical grips support and stabilize the pistol but also help isolate the trigger finger. What if the "grip" was more heavily biased towards the support hand? Competition rules place limits on how far back the palm shelf can extend limiting its wrist support. Pushing that into the realm of an actual wrist brace(don't shoot my dog, ATF bro!) might be fruitful.
For that matter since this will be an SBR, some type of forward pistol grip might be worth exploring. There exists no orthodoxy regarding the value of one for accurate or rapid semi auto shooting, so who knows if there is a ROI.

Various pistol grips














Counterweights


The Pistol as Epee'

Doubletap.

JESUS CHRIST! Those are some weird ass looking grips. Competition guns are a whole 'nother beast, apparently.

I'm looking forward to seeing this.

Nah I’ll probably just go with some kind of low-mount Aimpoint Micro-esque optic, probably another Holosun. Nothing overly abnormal for this thing. I do know which optic you’re referring to though, it’s certainly…Interesting.



Thank you for the info and pics! I had thought about doing a highly true-to-anatomy two-handed grip like you’re describing, but I couldn’t figure out how to do it while keeping the gun truly able to be shot by lefties and righties without changing out the grip. Right now I’m picturing it’ll likely be similar in shape to the Benelli MP95 grip, with a larger palm shelf. But that could change in the future!



Thank you sir

The Free Pistol course is 60 single shots at 50 meters in 2 hours. The 10 ring is 1.9 inches in diameter.
They're basically trying to emulate a bench rest.

First range trip in the bag. No real surprises or unexpected results. Only shot about 200 rounds through it today, no malfunctions or even hiccups. The felt recoil is expectedly noticeable and sharp, but that’s what I get for wanting a blowback 9mm vs a .22. More importantly for my purposes, it is notably linear with minuscule if at all noticeable muzzle rise. That should be able to be maintained if not even improved with the transition to a pistol.



Here’s the grouping from the first couple magazines. I didn’t take the time to zero the optic since it was only going to be temporary anyway, and it’s a good thing I didn’t - towards the end the optic rail started to shake loose a bit. That’s what I get for installing it without any thread locking compound though. That error has been corrected and it’s setting up now. Should be about next week I can order up a better optic for it - currently thinking the Holosun SCRS on a low mount for lightness and compactness.

And so it begins!

Neat project.  Curious, what mags are you running in the camp 9?

OP, given the copious numbers of Smith mags you've got for this project, it raises the opportunity to have a companion pistol that uses the same magazines, either a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Generation Smith or...  a KelTec...

It takes S&W 59 Series mags. It came with one Marlin branded mag and three unbranded mags, all 12 round capacity. I probably won’t buy any additional mags at this point, I don’t need to stockpile them for a range toy fun gun.



Definitely a possibility! I’ll have to see after I get done paying for this and the 1858 Rem. None of these projects are particularly inexpensive

I do have another question for the crowd - what color scheme should I go with? I’m leaning heavily towards laminated wood for the grip, and considering some Cerakote for the rest of the gun. This is just a fun gun so I can be a bit more indulgent in how I finish it. Any suggestions?

OP can you post a drawing of what you expect this to look like when you’re done?

Absolutely! I’ll do a quick sketch/Paint drawing when I get home from work today

Color case hardening with a spiral fluted barrel, of course, and go with a Cerakote faded splotchy Bakelite color scheme for the mag well & trigger guard.  

ETA:  My brother threaded a 9mm Camp for a can, only to of course discover the bolt is barely adequate for unsuppressed 9x19mm; in a fit of compassionate frustration, he gave it to me.  After I got a can, I attempted to make it more suitable for suppression by buying a single shot bolt lock magnet off eBay - the bolt thrust was enough to bend the aluminum bolt lock.  Sold the gun, the fancy bolt lock is now a refrigerator magnet.

IIRC, 4 types of guns run S&W 59 9mm mags - The 3 series of S&W 59s, the KelTec P11, the Marlin Camp 9, now all out of production - and the KelTec folding carbines, the SUB-9, and Gen 1 & 2 SUB-2000, likely soon to be a Gen 3.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/202843_Return-of-the-comprehensive-magazine-compatibility-thread.html

ETA:  Looks like a few other pistols do as well.

@FightingHellfish

Here’s an exceedingly shitty Paint sketch of what I’m thinking (not to scale, likely to change):

Will you be able to get the PG that close to trigger and still have room for the trigger group?

Eh case hardening is something I’m gonna save for the revolver projects. This is gonna be a little more colorful/playful. I’ve been looking at laminated wood blocks for grips, and I really like some of the two-color options here:

https://www.cwp-usa.com/collections/spectraply-panels?page=1

Maybe the orange and black? It’d be MCR colors and in line with another The Expanse theme, and this will certainly wind up looking very spacegun-ish…

Oh yeah, easily:

Eh, I don't hate it.  I hate you having to pay a $200 unConstitutional tax and chop up an out of production $1k rifle to do so, but you'll still have the stock & the barrel is replaceable.

Very steam punkish.  I've thought about doing an AR "Mauserish" pistol, initially in .22 LR w/ S&W mags, but if I could get one of those dual recoil spring jobbies that fit inside the AR upper & make it work, a 7.5" barrel AR pistol running the 10 round flush fit ProMag magazine would make a nice OC piece with my Aggie senior boots.  55 grn out of a 7.5" barrel isn't great, but 40 grn with a fast powder would be tits - 5.7 could kiss my ass.

I'm not a tv guy, so haven't watched the Expanse, and as I'm a Texas Aggie, I'm kinda anti-orange.  Leave the upper blued & spray paint the plastic?  Old w/ new?

Eh?



Definitely a possibility! Still in the brainstorming phase for that bit now, no solid decisions made yet

I’m thinking Project Razorback?



Some red laminated wood and Cerakote should look pretty good…

Holosun SCRS ordered, should be here in a few days. Also decided to go with the suggestion made by @ARnTN - welcome to Project Martini

This thread is a nice, old school AFR experience than acts as a nice distraction from what it (ARF) has become, you made the world a better place OP.

I'm IN!

Cheers You might be interested in some of my other project threads as well.

More generally, reports of NFA approval times measured in days rather than months are relevant to this thread. Should mean when it comes time it’ll be a relatively less painful process and much shorter wait

I concur.  Longer is more accurate.

No it’s not…But I’ll probably have them cut it closer to 5” anyway for aesthetics. We’ll see what my ‘smith thinks.

Optic has shipped, I imagine I’ll get it some time on Friday

I should clarify.

Longer barrels are mechanically less accurate because they tend to flex and vibrate more than shorter, stiffer barrels. Functionally though they tend to be able to be more accurate because a longer barrel generally means a longer sight radius, which allows a shooter to more precisely and repeatably aim the gun.

For this project however, I’m using an electronic optic rather than iron sights, so the potential sight radius of the gun is irrelevant

Without optics, longer sight radius is more accurate.  OP is using optics.

What grn loads do you plan to use & at what range, OP?  If 124 or 115, barrel length and the transonic range come into play.

The shorter barrel should allow for a slightly lighter bolt than normal.  If the bolt is still too light though it shouldn't be a problem to drill a few holes in it and fill them with tungsten.

I might wait until I firmed up the pistol grip idea, or at least start with a lot longer barrel than you think you want.
The visual integration and aesthetic you end up going for will dictate barrel length more than any practical consideration.
Your first approximation reminds of a Ruger charger in a laminated stock