User Panel
Posted: 6/11/2019 8:58:34 PM EDT
Test Gun: Sig P226 Barrel length: 4.4 inches Ammunition: Underwood 9mm 147gr Hard Cast, .40 S&W Hard Cast Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel. Distance: 10 feet. Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2. Five shot velocity average:1085, 942fps Gel Temperature 70 degrees. The discussion of what to carry in the field seems to come up often on the various online forums. It normally revolves around the best caliber and load for bear protection. I would say most peoples first reaction if asked, is to pick a .44 magnum or some other large bore revolver. When talking about semi-auto pistols the 10mm is normally the default answer. The .45 ACP/ .45 Super is often brought up as a viable option to the 10mm and as we have seen in my past test with the right load it can perform very well. To a lesser extent, the option of the 9mm or .40 S&W will be considered. With is in mine and after testing the Underwood Xtreme Penetrator I grab some hard cast loadings from Underwood. Two of them were the 9mm 147gr +P hard cast and the .40 S&W 200gr hard cast. Underwood lists their hard cast bullets as a. "Hi -Tek Coated Hard Cast Flat Nose 21 BHN". "Hi-Tek coating allows you to enjoy the benefits of a hard-cast projectile and the cleanliness normally seen in copper jacketed/plated rounds. Hi-Tek is a polymer based compound* that not only reduces fouling in your barrel, but also substantially reduces airborne lead contamination (allowing for use in some indoor ranges). The elimination of the wax lubrication combined with the reduced airborne lead contamination results in considerably less smoke produced with each shot. Hard cast flat nose bullets are non-expanding, powerfully penetrative bullets that are designed with your woods defense needs in mind; whether fending off wild hogs or black bears, the hard cast flat nose bullets are consistently effective in taking down any wild animals that you may encounter". Both of these rounds were shot out of a Sig P226 with a 4.4-inch barrel. Starting with the 9mm I got an average 5 shot velocity of 1085fps with a high of 1091fps and a low of 1081fps. This was 15fps lower than the advertised velocity of 1100fps. The recoil was very manageable and about what you would expect from a 9mm +P. The spent cases didn't appear to show any signs of excessive pressure when compared to the Winchester "white box" 124gr standard pressure. There were no malfunctions or failures with this round. With the .40 S&W, I got an average 5 shot velocity of 942fps with a high of 952fps and a low of 938fps. This was 58fps lower than the advertised velocity of 1000fps. Like the 9mm this load was very controllable. Spent cases didn't show any signs of excessive pressure when compared to the Federal 180gr HST loading. There were also no malfunctions or failures when shooting this round. 5 rounds offhand at 10 yards 9mm 5 rounds offhand at 10 yards .40 S&W 9mm case comparison .40 S&W case comparison So how will they perform in the gel? To find out I used the same set up I used with the Underwood Xtreme Penetrator testing. Four 16 inch blocks of Clear Gel for the two bare gel shots and two through the 20 gauge steel plate at 30 degrees. Round one from the 9mm was shot int the upper left corner of the gel block and passed completely through the four gel blocks and was caught with the body armor placed at the end. The only other round to pass through all four blocks was the Double Tap 10mm 200gr FMJ. The velocity of the first round was 1074fps and the recovered weight was 147.1 grains. Round two in the bare gel was shot in the upper right-hand corner had a velocity of 1086fps and also pass through all four blocks of gel. The recovered weight was 146.4 grains Shooting the 9mm through the sheet metal the first round penetrated to 18.75 inches. Velocity was not recorded and the recovered weight was 137.1 grains. The second rounds velocity was 1091fps and it penetrated to 18.5 inches. The Recovered weight was 134 grains. Now on to the .40 S&W. The first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 958fps and penetrated to 52 inches. The recovered weight was196.6 grains. Round two hit the bare gel blocks at a velocity of 959fps and penetrated to 52.5 inches. The recovered weight was also 196.6 grains. When shooting through the sheet metal the velocity of the first round was 955fps and penetrated to a depth of 17 inches. The recovered weight was 190.6 grains. The second round had a velocity of 959fps and penetrated to 16.25 inches. It's recovered weight was 188.4 grains. If we compare these rounds to the 9mm and .40 S&W Xtreme Penetrators that the hard cast bullets in 9mm penetration completely went through all four blocks, 64 inches, of gel. The Xtreme 115gr penetrators went to 47 and 47.5 inches. That's around 17 inches or one complete block of gel. Through the sheet metal, the depths were much closer. The Underwood's hard cast went 18.5 and 18.75 inches to the Xtreme's 16.5 and 18 inches. Closer but the hard cast still beat the Xtreme Penetrators. With the .40 S&W, the hard cast beat the Xtreme bullets by a large margin, 52 and 52.5 inches to the Xtreme's 22.5 and 23 inches. Through the sheet metal, the Xtreme proved to be the better penetrator with 17 and 18.5 inches compared to the hard cast 16.25 and 17. Better, but not by much. http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog |
|
|
[#1]
Outstanding! Great woods defense option.
|
|
Life is like giving a porcupine a bear hug.
|
[#2]
Great use of the sheet metal. Wish more people used it.
I think Phil Shoemaker proved that hardcast 9mm is good enough for brown bear. Albeit a sow. It's still the best option ammo wise for woods carry for 9mm. Either Underwood or Buffalo bore. If given the choice I'd still prefer something with a little more umph. As you show, a little barrier cuts a lot of penatration off. Not that bears are armor plated but their bones are very thick and their hide is tough. |
|
"If you cant do something smart, do something right"
|
[#3]
Fantastic info OP. Thank you for all that hard work.
|
|
|
[#4]
Thanks for your efforts OP. Love these tests.
Would love to see the same test with 255gr underwood or BB hard cast .45 ACP +P |
|
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit softly.
- Theodore Roosevelt |
[#5]
outstanding testing and write up. If I am expecting armored bears I think this would be a good choice. While ultimate bear defense always comes up on this page, the only real study I saw said if you shoot at or hit a bear with any caliber you have a 97% sucess rate. the only failure in the study was a 357 that missed.
and while I'm always interested in adding a new gun to the mix, a couple boxes of good ammo like this would make me feel warm and fuzzy with either my 9s or 45s . |
|
If you live long enough into the Great Tomfuckery to get to the point that pistol commonality is critical to survival, you've defied so many odds that you're basically a fucking wizard-Deadtired
|
[#6]
|
|
|
[#7]
Originally Posted By 5pins:
I will be doing some Underwood 255gr .45+p and .45 Super next then the 10mm in 200 and 220gr. https://i.imgur.com/SNlCfQ9l.jpg https://i.imgur.com/e3Sdxkjl.jpg View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By 5pins:
Originally Posted By renegade509:
Thanks for your efforts OP. Love these tests. Would love to see the same test with 255gr underwood or BB hard cast .45 ACP +P https://i.imgur.com/SNlCfQ9l.jpg https://i.imgur.com/e3Sdxkjl.jpg |
|
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit softly.
- Theodore Roosevelt |
[#8]
Originally Posted By 5pins: I will be doing some Underwood 255gr .45+p and .45 Super next then the 10mm in 200 and 220gr. https://i.imgur.com/SNlCfQ9l.jpg https://i.imgur.com/e3Sdxkjl.jpg View Quote |
|
The mountains are calling, and I must go. -John Muir
|
[#9]
|
|
|
[#10]
Originally Posted By 03RN:
Great use of the sheet metal. Wish more people used it. I think Phil Shoemaker proved that hardcast 9mm is good enough for brown bear. Albeit a sow. It's still the best option ammo wise for woods carry for 9mm. Either Underwood or Buffalo bore. If given the choice I'd still prefer something with a little more umph. As you show, a little barrier cuts a lot of penatration off. Not that bears are armor plated but their bones are very thick and their hide is tough. View Quote I'm into carrying Heavy "Keith" rounds/loads from both Underwood and Buffalo Bore in .44Special and have recently carried the Underwood 305 grain Hard Cast Keith's rated at 1325fps after finding them rather pleasant to shoot 20 of them even from my 3" barreled N frame. They were superbly accurate, burned clean, and gave off a muzzle flash so minimum I was shocked. I have no doubt they will go strait thru a bear from Snout to ButtonHole... I've carried Underwood and Buffalo Bore's HC hot "Keith's" in both .45ACP+P's and .45Super and they are superb. One is well armed in the woods with a reliable gun with either of those loads too! ***As for the Buffalo Bore 9mm Hard Cast Keith "Outdoorsman" rounds I tried would shoot and chamber... However, they absolutely would not unchamber a live round from the chamber in both my CZ P-01 and SP-01 pistols.... even with my big beefy mitts racking on the slide. I had to get home and use my gunbench as a press off the rear sights both times to clear the chamber. I emailed Tim about it and he said it's due to the Europeans having different ideas of chamber throat dimensions than American made and other non Euro manufactures of 9mm semi-auto's. Just a heads up for anyone planning to try or use them out of a Euro Manufactured gun. Good load though!*** |
|
|
[#11]
Originally Posted By renegade509:
Thanks for your efforts OP. Love these tests. Would love to see the same test with 255gr underwood or BB hard cast .45 ACP +P View Quote |
|
|
[#12]
how about doing 124gr fmj 9mm NATO as a control?
|
|
|
[#13]
|
|
|
[#14]
Got any pics of the gel blocks was the wound track more impressive than a typical fmj? The Underwood 9mm ammo is what I carry in my pistol when going to black bear areas
|
|
|
[#15]
|
|
|
[#16]
Great testing! Thanks for sharing
|
|
|
[#17]
|
|
I suppose it is possible to convey more ignorance with less words, but I doubt I will ever see it in my lifetime.--Bohr Adam
If LAV promotes using the slide lock/release to chamber a round after a mag change, then he should be ignored.-MP0117 |
[#18]
Originally Posted By 5pins:
After mcantu's suggestion, I got a box of some M882 9mm and shot two rounds into some bare gel. This was the same blocks I used for the Underwood test. To my surprise, both rounds only penetrated about a block and a half, 24.5 and 24.75 inches. I was expecting much more. https://i.imgur.com/WcV52ntl.jpg?1 View Quote |
|
I suppose it is possible to convey more ignorance with less words, but I doubt I will ever see it in my lifetime.--Bohr Adam
If LAV promotes using the slide lock/release to chamber a round after a mag change, then he should be ignored.-MP0117 |
[#19]
Originally Posted By 5pins: I will be doing some Underwood 255gr .45+p and .45 Super next then the 10mm in 200 and 220gr. https://i.imgur.com/SNlCfQ9l.jpg https://i.imgur.com/e3Sdxkjl.jpg View Quote |
|
|
[Last Edit: mcantu]
[#20]
Originally Posted By 5pins:
After mcantu's suggestion, I got a box of some M882 9mm and shot two rounds into some bare gel. This was the same blocks I used for the Underwood test. To my surprise, both rounds only penetrated about a block and a half, 24.5 and 24.75 inches. I was expecting much more. https://i.imgur.com/WcV52ntl.jpg?1 View Quote |
|
|
[#21]
Any chance of doing this type of test with carbines in 38/357, 44 & 45?
|
|
|
[#22]
|
|
|
[#23]
Great test!
Very interesting results. 9mm hardcast results are impressive. I look forward to the 10mm tests. |
|
|
[#24]
I have always found the BB .380 +p interesting.
Failed To Load Title |
|
|
[#25]
Originally Posted By BUCK1911:
I have always found the BB .380 +p interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3b3ZGmZuT0 View Quote |
|
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit softly.
- Theodore Roosevelt |
[#26]
That's' pretty crazy performance for a .380. I almost bought some of the Underwood .380 hard cast, kind of wish I had after seeing that.
|
|
|
[#27]
|
|
|
[#28]
|
|
|
[#29]
Originally Posted By StevenH: Same View Quote |
|
|
[#30]
Originally Posted By 5pins:
https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com/2019/06/24/underwood-45-acp-and-45-super-in-clear-ballistics-gel/ View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By 5pins:
Originally Posted By StevenH: Same |
|
|
[#31]
OP,
I just checked out your website. Lots of great info. Any plans to test the Underwood .38SPC +P hard cast Keith LSWC? How about the Underwood 180Gn Hard Cast .357Mag? |
|
|
[#32]
how terrible is that 380 to shoot?
|
|
If you live long enough into the Great Tomfuckery to get to the point that pistol commonality is critical to survival, you've defied so many odds that you're basically a fucking wizard-Deadtired
|
[#33]
Nice test, Thanks.
|
|
"They're telling us they'd rather die than come out and surrender....so.. They're gonna die..."
|
[#34]
|
|
|
[Last Edit: BUCK1911]
[#35]
|
|
|
[#36]
I've also shot some of the BB 100gr hardcast out of a Sig P230. It shot fine, and the recoil was more than typical .380 but not bad at all. Most importantly, it was reliable, although I cannot afford to shoot enough to really wring it out 100%.
But I don't think 31"+ penetration is good for typical self defense against humans and if I'm going out in the woods, I usually carry a 40cal Glock. But if I was forced to rely on a .380 woods carry, this would be my preferred load. |
|
|
[#37]
I always have a 380 with me as a backup to primary weapon and on that time I run outside with a sick dog in the middle of the night and didn't grab said primary weapon and find that bear staring me in the face I want all the penetration I can find.
A few years ago I looked out and saw some elk chewing on one of my fruit trees and I ran out to scare it away and nothing but my shorts and flip-flops. Were you aware that Elk are large and they don't scare very easy.... I ended up the winner of a very long stare down over the sites of my LCP. |
|
|
[#38]
Originally Posted By BUCK1911:
I always have a 380 with me as a backup to primary weapon and on that time I run outside with a sick dog in the middle of the night and didn't grab said primary weapon and find that bear staring me in the face I want all the penetration I can find. A few years ago I looked out and saw some elk chewing on one of my fruit trees and I ran out to scare it away and nothing but my shorts and flip-flops. Were you aware that Elk are large and they don't scare very easy.... I ended up the winner of a very long stare down over the sites of my LCP. View Quote Tell ya what thou, I do the same thing. One night I walk outside with my weiner dog. Underpants and Croc. Black Bear on the bird feeder. I grabbed the nearest thing. A Frickin Pool Noodle!! And proceed to hoot hollar and smack that noodles ends together. Didn't quite do anything. So what does my dumbass do? I start chasing the damm thing twirlin the noodle over my head. Yellin obscenities. Thankfully the bear took off. But I was ready to throw down! Gotta protect my weiner!! |
|
|
[#39]
Originally Posted By psegnatelli:
LOL. Tell ya what thou, I do the same thing. One night I walk outside with my weiner dog. Underpants and Croc. Black Bear on the bird feeder. I grabbed the nearest thing. A Frickin Pool Noodle!! And proceed to hoot hollar and smack that noodles ends together. Didn't quite do anything. So what does my dumbass do? I start chasing the damm thing twirlin the noodle over my head. Yellin obscenities. Thankfully the bear took off. But I was ready to throw down! Gotta protect my weiner!! View Quote |
|
MAGA!
|
[#40]
Thanks for these tests (and the .45 acp/super)!
The results certainly show that with a hardcast, the service calibers are no slouch in penetration. I generally carried my GP100 .357 with BB 180 grain hardcast in the woods (especially in CO) but that gun is heavy. Think my G21 or G22 will take over- hell, carrying my G19 in the woods wouldn't make me worried. |
|
Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.- Richard Dawkins
|
[#41]
Any concerns shooting the 9mm hard cast load in small guns like the Sig P365 or Glock 43x?
How about 90s vintage Glocks with the poor chamber support? |
|
|
[#42]
I just bought a case of the underwood 9mm.
|
|
|
[Last Edit: 03shooter]
[#43]
Originally Posted By jmreagan: Philly Shoemaker has nerves of steel to kill a Pissed Sow on he Period while in an ambush charge from so close. I've always admired that true story! I'm into carrying Heavy "Keith" rounds/loads from both Underwood and Buffalo Bore in .44Special and have recently carried the Underwood 305 grain Hard Cast Keith's rated at 1325fps after finding them rather pleasant to shoot 20 of them even from my 3" barreled N frame. They were superbly accurate, burned clean, and gave off a muzzle flash so minimum I was shocked. I have no doubt they will go strait thru a bear from Snout to ButtonHole... I've carried Underwood and Buffalo Bore's HC hot "Keith's" in both .45ACP+P's and .45Super and they are superb. One is well armed in the woods with a reliable gun with either of those loads too! ***As for the Buffalo Bore 9mm Hard Cast Keith "Outdoorsman" rounds I tried would shoot and chamber... However, they absolutely would not unchamber a live round from the chamber in both my CZ P-01 and SP-01 pistols.... even with my big beefy mitts racking on the slide. I had to get home and use my gunbench as a press off the rear sights both times to clear the chamber. I emailed Tim about it and he said it's due to the Europeans having different ideas of chamber throat dimensions than American made and other non Euro manufactures of 9mm semi-auto's. Just a heads up for anyone planning to try or use them out of a Euro Manufactured gun. Good load though!*** View Quote Edit- I ordered some of the Underwood 147 hard cast and they work great in my M&P 2.0. |
|
Tact; The ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.
|
[#44]
Tried 40 rounds of the 9mm in a 43X today. Functioned perfect, a little smoky
|
|
Life member of CRPA
|
[#45]
Originally Posted By StevenH: Any concerns shooting the 9mm hard cast load in small guns like the Sig P365 or Glock 43x? How about 90s vintage Glocks with the poor chamber support? View Quote Old "vintage" Glocks from the early years will be fine as long as new brass is used. The true cause of 99% of the kabooms was reloads using older brass. Always use new brass for hot loads. (sorry to chime in a year late but with ammo being so scarce lately, we may be forced to "plink" with Underwood and Double Tap ammo since the cheap FMJ is unavailable) |
|
|
[Last Edit: StevenH]
[#46]
Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Old "vintage" Glocks from the early years will be fine as long as new brass is used. The true cause of 99% of the kabooms was reloads using older brass. Always use new brass for hot loads. (sorry to chime in a year late but with ammo being so scarce lately, we may be forced to "plink" with Underwood and Double Tap ammo since the cheap FMJ is unavailable) View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By StevenH: Any concerns shooting the 9mm hard cast load in small guns like the Sig P365 or Glock 43x? How about 90s vintage Glocks with the poor chamber support? Old "vintage" Glocks from the early years will be fine as long as new brass is used. The true cause of 99% of the kabooms was reloads using older brass. Always use new brass for hot loads. (sorry to chime in a year late but with ammo being so scarce lately, we may be forced to "plink" with Underwood and Double Tap ammo since the cheap FMJ is unavailable) Cool. I tried it in a early 90s G19 today. One brand new mag failed to lock to the rear when empty, twice. Number 6 Follower somehow slipping by the slide stop tap. ETA 90 rounds now. No issues except one magazine failure |
|
Life member of CRPA
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.