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WV, USA
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Posted: 3/21/2020 11:50:52 AM EDT
 Test Gun: Colt 1911 Government, Defender. Barrel length: 5 and 3 inches. Ammunition: Winchester .45 ACP 185gr Silvertip JHP . Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel. Distance: 10 feet. Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2. Five shot velocity average: 993, 902fps Gel Temperature 70 degrees. https://general-cartridge.com/2020/03/21/winchester-45-acp-185gr-silvertip-jhp-in-clear-ballistics-gel/ |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 3/21/2020 12:35:58 PM EDT
[#1]
Good info I almost forgot about Sliver Tips. I only
have a Glock 21 45 ACP right now. But the Tips are worth looking at again. I am looking for a 1911 again. The last one I had was a Colt Combat Commander. I liked it a bunch but never felt comfortable shooting it. I think it was the barrel length. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/21/2020 1:13:55 PM EDT
[#2]
They still work great for being older technology.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 3/21/2020 5:43:47 PM EDT
[#3]
Thanks as always OP. Great info.
I remember carrying the old Silvertip with the aluminum jacket in my Combat Commander in the late 80's. Looks like the newer stuff gives very good performance and is a good option. Not sure why but Silvertips are usually stupid crazy expensive compared to other premium JHP. |
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WV, USA
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Posted: 3/21/2020 7:36:51 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Thanks as always OP. Great info. I remember carrying the old Silvertip with the aluminum jacket in my Combat Commander in the late 80's. Looks like the newer stuff gives very good performance and is a good option. Not sure why but Silvertips are usually stupid crazy expensive compared to other premium JHP. The price seems to have dropped lately. The box I shot was under $15 for 20. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 3/21/2020 9:58:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Thanks for posting as I didn’t know they had changed the design on the 45 ACP Silvertip bullet. I remember the very first 45 Silvertip did not have a notched aluminum jacket at the nose. The old 45 ACP Silvertip was a common LE load carried by numerous agencies in California when they were using 45 ACP semi autos.
This new Silvertip loading has good velocity and the performance in gel looks very good even out of the 3” barrel. Back in the 80’s I carried a Satin Nickel Combat Commander loaded with 185 grain Silvertips. I also carried a Detonic’s Combat Master usually loaded with CCI/Speer 200 grain JHP (Flying Ash Tray). The reports from the street showed pretty good results for the Silvertip and the 200 grain JHP. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/22/2020 12:40:15 AM EDT
[#6]
Wow, that's actually good. Not just good for Silvertip, but pretty good overall too.
If this were cheap I'd say stack it deep, but unfortunately, it costs more than 230 gr +P HST while still not doing as well. With that being said I wouldn't hesitate to use this out of a 5" barrel if it were what was available. |
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Posted: 3/22/2020 10:00:35 AM EDT
[#7]
I always liked that stuff...until I saw a test where it wouldn't reliably penetrate sheet metal (as in car doors) due to jacket shedding.
It's still cool stuff, as stated, for decades old tech. |
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Posted: 3/22/2020 5:02:12 PM EDT
[#8]
I had a 1991a1 Colt that loved this load!
Sold the Colt and got a G20 that ALSO loved Silvertips. Also one of my favorite loads for snub 357s. |
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Posted: 3/22/2020 8:29:24 PM EDT
[#9]
I have some 80s and 90s vintage .45 ACP Silvertip in deep storage.
How do these older versions compare to this new one? |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 3/22/2020 11:01:13 PM EDT
[#10]
Older Winchester 45 ACP 185 grain Silvertip use an aluminum alloy jacket to aid in expansion. Most 45 ACP Silvertips would chronograph around 950 to 1000 FPS in a 5 inch 1911 and normally around 925 to 970 FPS in a 4.25 inch Commander. The Silvertip expanded pretty good in gallon water jugs usually being stopped in the 3rd jug. I think the 200 grain Speer JHP performed better out of my 3.5 inch Detonic’s Combat Master. The Silvertip in 45 ACP would feed in about any 1911 I ever tried whereas the Speer 200 grain JHP (Flying Ash Can) needed a polished feed ramp and polished throated barrel.
Federal had a 185 grain JHP as did Remington but neither expanded in water as well as the Silvertip especially out of shorter barrels in my testing. The Federal and Remington JHP bullets used gilded metal jackets. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 3/23/2020 7:33:34 AM EDT
[#11]
This new Silvertip my be my go-to load in smaller lighter 45's especially if it is reasonably priced as 5pins says. (50 round boxes of 9mm and 40SW Silvertips are $45 when I see them but have never seen 45).
I also wonder if Winchester has a 50 round economical "white box" 185 JHP load offered that will be identical minus the silver coating. Also, does anyone know if this is still good for Werewolf? 
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WV, USA
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Posted: 3/23/2020 10:13:34 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: This new Silvertip my be my go-to load in smaller lighter 45's especially if it is reasonably priced as 5pins says. (50 round boxes of 9mm and 40SW Silvertips are $45 when I see them but have never seen 45). I also wonder if Winchester has a 50 round economical "white box" 185 JHP load offered that will be identical minus the silver coating. Also, does anyone know if this is still good for Werewolf? When they were in stock at Target Sports and Midway the price was $14.99 to $15.99. That was a week ago so YMMV now. |
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Posted: 3/23/2020 10:50:02 AM EDT
[#13]
Holy 1987, they still make Silvertips?
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Posted: 3/23/2020 4:09:42 PM EDT
[#14]
Thanks for the test
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USA
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Posted: 3/24/2020 1:20:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 45custom]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Devildog: I have some 80s and 90s vintage .45 ACP Silvertip in deep storage. How do these older versions compare to this new one? 80s generations of Silvertip had inadequate penetration. 9mm was particularly terrible, but .45 was still bad. Even today, it appears to require the velocity of a 5" barrel to consistently meet the 12" mark. (Funnily enough, this particular loading actually seems to penetrate more at higher speeds - perhaps because the expanded edges of the bullet roll behind the front face instead of continuing to mushroom outwards.) |
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Posted: 3/24/2020 10:14:52 AM EDT
[#16]
5Pins, thanks for sharing. As always, great info.
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Posted: 3/25/2020 8:47:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1Devildog]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45custom: 80s generations of Silvertip had inadequate penetration. 9mm was particularly terrible, but .45 was still bad. Even today, it appears to require the velocity of a 5" barrel to consistently meet the 12" mark. (Funnily enough, this particular loading actually seems to penetrate more at higher speeds - perhaps because the expanded edges of the bullet roll behind the front face instead of continuing to mushroom outwards.) .45 is not my primary caliber and Silvertips are not my primary load. But, if/when the tier-1 HP runs out, which load to choose? FMJ or Silvertip? (1911 and XDM 3.8) |
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Posted: 3/25/2020 6:52:58 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Devildog: .45 is not my primary caliber and Silvertips are not my primary load. But, if/when the tier-1 HP runs out, which load to choose? FMJ or Silvertip? (1911 and XDM 3.8) Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Devildog: Originally Posted By 45custom: 80s generations of Silvertip had inadequate penetration. 9mm was particularly terrible, but .45 was still bad. Even today, it appears to require the velocity of a 5" barrel to consistently meet the 12" mark. (Funnily enough, this particular loading actually seems to penetrate more at higher speeds - perhaps because the expanded edges of the bullet roll behind the front face instead of continuing to mushroom outwards.) .45 is not my primary caliber and Silvertips are not my primary load. But, if/when the tier-1 HP runs out, which load to choose? FMJ or Silvertip? (1911 and XDM 3.8) Id prefer fmj |
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USA
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Posted: 3/25/2020 8:29:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 45custom]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1Devildog: .45 is not my primary caliber and Silvertips are not my primary load. But, if/when the tier-1 HP runs out, which load to choose? FMJ or Silvertip? (1911 and XDM 3.8) Old .45 Silvertip gets about 10 inches of penetration which, while seriously inadequate, isn't complete shit. It's at least better than a varmint round, and the expansion is certainly large enough to matter. At the same time, .45 FMJ does start off with the diameter to match some early 90s 9mm hollowpoints, only with far more penetration than needed. I am usually not a fan of staggering/stacking bullets in a mag, but it may be a good idea in this case. If overpenetration is a concern, do be advised that ball ammo can pose a risk in this regard. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 3/26/2020 1:08:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: VASCAR2]
[#20]
Honestly I don’t remember the 45 ACP or 9 MM Silvertip having notably worse failure to stop during it’s hay day than other typical JHP duty ammo. I was a LEO in the 70’s,80’s,90’s, 2000’s and other than the FBI Miami shoot out blaming the 9 MM Silvertip failure to stop getting a lot of press I don’t remember any problems with the 45 ACP.
When the original Silvertip was released the ISP had an Officer involved shooting where the Silvertip failed. W-W used a lube on the aluminum alloy jacket. In the hot weather the lube leaked into the powder and reduced velocity of the bullets in this shooting. ISP pulled the Silvertip ammo and reissued Federal 9BP. The early Silvertip used an aluminum alloy jacked but was quickly changed to gilded metal jacket. Honestly a lot Officers I know didn’t blame the Silvertip in the Miami shootout. Most of us put the blame on poor tactics and not having long guns close at hand when they were available. Weird stuff happens in real life and there no absolute proof a different 9 MM bullet would have changed the outcome in Miami. Other than the Miami shooting I don’t remember any documented cases of the 45 ACP or 9 MM Silvertip under penetrating. Honestly I don't completely trust gel testing. It is a good medium for comparing different bullets but I put more faith in actual street performance and autopsies. I’ve been involved in numerous shootings and witnessed a few autopsies so we each can have our own opinions from what we’ve experienced. |
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USA
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Posted: 3/26/2020 1:46:06 PM EDT
[#21]
The penetration figure of the early 9mm Silvertip - about 8 inches of soft tissue - has been validated through both autopsies and gel testing.
In contrast, a study of the 9mm 147 gr Winchester subsonic, one of the earlier loadings to meet post-Miami penetration standards, found that penetration in actual shootings averaged about 13 inches. No bullet in the study penetrated less than 10 inches as I recall. The crucial silvertip fired during the Miami shootout stopped about an inch away from the heart, so one may draw their own conclusions. Dr. Roberts notes one particular case where a suspect was shot 27 times with 115 gr Silvertip out of MP5s. Only a single bullet penetrated to a vital structure, namely a carotid artery. With the already abysmal penetration exacerbated by excessive velocity and fragmentation, none of the other bullets went deep enough to cause serious damage, in spite of multiple hits to the thoracic cavity. |
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Posted: 8/13/2020 8:19:52 PM EDT
[#22]
One of the few JHP that has proven 100% reliable in my 1911
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FL, USA
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Posted: 8/14/2020 10:17:58 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45custom: The penetration figure of the early 9mm Silvertip - about 8 inches of soft tissue - has been validated through both autopsies and gel testing. In contrast, a study of the 9mm 147 gr Winchester subsonic, one of the earlier loadings to meet post-Miami penetration standards, found that penetration in actual shootings averaged about 13 inches. No bullet in the study penetrated less than 10 inches as I recall. The crucial silvertip fired during the Miami shootout stopped about an inch away from the heart, so one may draw their own conclusions. Dr. Roberts notes one particular case where a suspect was shot 27 times with 115 gr Silvertip out of MP5s. Only a single bullet penetrated to a vital structure, namely a carotid artery. With the already abysmal penetration exacerbated by excessive velocity and fragmentation, none of the other bullets went deep enough to cause serious damage, in spite of multiple hits to the thoracic cavity. The famous Silvertip hit during the '86 shootout was a fatal hit. It perforated the para cardium (sp? or whatever the sack that holds the heart is called). The same bullet had to pass through the badguys forearm also. The load worked as it should and illustrates that handgun "stopping power" is dubious. I would not be afraid to leave the house if I had to carry the 115 Silvertip. Had the Agents been carrying 147gr HST back in '86 (or pick your favorite 9mm from 2020), the outcome would have been the same. Highly motivated and tactically aggressive bad guys armed with long guns require long guns. Lots of long guns. |
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Posted: 9/15/2021 3:12:52 PM EDT
[#24]
9mm silvertip seems to have showed up in the online stores. Hopefully 45 is coming back soon
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MA, USA
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Posted: 9/15/2021 4:43:07 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: The famous Silvertip hit during the '86 shootout was a fatal hit. It perforated the para cardium (sp? or whatever the sack that holds the heart is called). The same bullet had to pass through the badguys forearm also. The load worked as it should and illustrates that handgun "stopping power" is dubious. I would not be afraid to leave the house if I had to carry the 115 Silvertip. Had the Agents been carrying 147gr HST back in '86 (or pick your favorite 9mm from 2020), the outcome would have been the same. Highly motivated and tactically aggressive bad guys armed with long guns require long guns. Lots of long guns. it likely would have had a different outcome if they were issued 147gr HST, or even 115gr fmj. While the 115gr Silvertip's wound would have been fatal, it was the slow leak type of fatal. If the bullet had penetrated an inch or two further it most likely would have been a faster incapacitation, if not immediate. Instead of perforating the pericardium, the bullet would have crushed a part of the heart and likely disrupted important arteries, only if it penetrated one or two more inches, thats why penetration matters. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/17/2021 9:24:20 PM EDT
[#26]
I have not read any reliable source to suggest that the 115 gr Silvertip penetrated the pericardium - not that it would be likely to make an enormous difference anyway if the chambers of the heart were not breached. Regardless it remains that almost any 9mm JHP not only today but even of that era would have inflicted a more quickly incapacitating wound.
If by “working as intended” one means that the 115 gr Silvertip worked at being a fucking failure, then yes, it was successful. Otherwise, it sucked ass. Again, 8 inches of penetration is simply not acceptable for any serious duty round, unless one is policing the groundhog community. Rifles are not magic wands and having one does nothing for the fact that you will likely and by all rights should be ventilated in short order by 7 combatants armed with handguns at a distance where your range advantage is negated. The fact that there were other potential mistakes and imperfections does not change the inadequacy of the 115 gr Silvertip, and frankly I am sick of having to say this, even in response to comments that I missed over a year ago. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/19/2021 9:59:13 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45custom: I have not read any reliable source to suggest that the 115 gr Silvertip penetrated the pericardium - not that it would be likely to make an enormous difference anyway if the chambers of the heart were not breached. Regardless it remains that almost any 9mm JHP not only today but even of that era would have inflicted a more quickly incapacitating wound. If by “working as intended” one means that the 115 gr Silvertip worked at being a fucking failure, then yes, it was successful. Otherwise, it sucked ass. Again, 8 inches of penetration is simply not acceptable for any serious duty round, unless one is policing the groundhog community. Rifles are not magic wands and having one does nothing for the fact that you will likely and by all rights should be ventilated in short order by 7 combatants armed with handguns at a distance where your range advantage is negated. The fact that there were other potential mistakes and imperfections does not change the inadequacy of the 115 gr Silvertip, and frankly I am sick of having to say this, even in response to comments that I missed over a year ago. I disagree with EVERYTHING in this post. You sound like the SAC that planned the "vehicle interdiction" of Platt and Maddox. |
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USA
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Posted: 9/19/2021 4:45:44 PM EDT
[#28]
That’s all very well, and you may also disagree that the sky is blue for no reason whatsoever besides an irrational affection for the color silver.
The wound ballisticians of the IWBA were known to hold different viewpoints on multiple subjects. I have not known a single one to argue that 8 inches of penetration is acceptable, now or then. But hey, perhaps they were just crashing too many cars into each other. Maybe if they hadn’t, they would have realized that picking up a rifle grants you immunity to pistol bullets, and that the inadequate performance of one of the worst loadings on the market in the 1980s is simultaneous evidence for the ineffectiveness of the best loadings in the 2020s. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 9/26/2021 1:03:02 PM EDT
[#29]
This used to be my carry load about 25 years ago. I always felt confident with my choice.
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FL, USA
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Posted: 9/27/2021 10:34:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ITCHY-FINGER]
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45custom: That’s all very well, and you may also disagree that the sky is blue for no reason whatsoever besides an irrational affection for the color silver. The wound ballisticians of the IWBA were known to hold different viewpoints on multiple subjects. I have not known a single one to argue that 8 inches of penetration is acceptable, now or then. But hey, perhaps they were just crashing too many cars into each other. Maybe if they hadn’t, they would have realized that picking up a rifle grants you immunity to pistol bullets, and that the inadequate performance of one of the worst loadings on the market in the 1980s is simultaneous evidence for the ineffectiveness of the best loadings in the 2020s. I have always been very interested in the '86 Shootout. I lived very close to where the final gunbattle went down and even we used to go plinking out in the Glades where Platt/Madox robbed/killed some of their victims. Lucky not at the same time. Later in the Academy we spent days reviewing the incident and all the lessons learned. My conclusion is that the performance of a 9mm Silvertip was the least consequential of all the other tactics and failures of that day. That is not to say that I blame the FBI agents, who fought hard and won the day, although at too high a cost. I blame the violent thugs who also fought hard and did A LOT of damage with 1 rifle. To say that one determined and trained man with a rifle is not a significant factor is foolhardy and everyone involved in the shootout would agree (if they were alive). The 9mm 115 Silvertip worked. It passed through an arm and caused a fatal wound. I have always heard that it perforated the paracardium and was fatal. Unfortunately the badguy did not know this and kept fighting. The 115 Silvertip would NOT be among my top 10 choices in 2021. I know that it underpenetrates but I have never heard that it's only to 8". Maybe through auto glass. I would never carry anything to maxes out at 8". But if the agents were carrying my favorite load, HST 147 +P, I doubt very much that it would have compensated for the tactics of the FBI and the badguys to matter. |
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USA
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Posted: 10/9/2022 1:45:33 PM EDT
[#31]
Winchester has finally done a production run of 9mm and .45 silvertip. You should be able to find it online right now.
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OK, USA
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Posted: 10/10/2022 12:04:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: K5FAL]
[#32]
Old vs new
 That old silver tip feeds in my Colt Commander super smooth. |
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USA
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Posted: 10/10/2022 12:43:24 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By K5FAL: Old vs new https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9813/Ktzilw.jpg That old silver tip feeds in my Colt Commander super smooth. Does the new version work in the same gun? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/10/2022 1:25:22 PM EDT
[#34]
Many of you are not old enough to know the silver tip was practically the very first hollow points that were widely accepted as "reliable’ in context to firearm function.
Many early hollow points did not function reliably in a wide range of firearms and therefore it took years of trial and error before the shift towards HP’s took hold. Most of that was a combination of the OG of the projectile, firearms mechanical tolerance’s, some barrel chamber edge chamfering issues and loading angles caused by the magazines. The silvertips solved much of the early problems because the jacket was the right OG, smooth enough and hard enough to simply slide into the chamber without hanging up nearly as often. Nothing wrong with them except they perform best at higher velocities. Push them over 1K/ft/sec and they continue to get better. No qualms carrying them. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 10/10/2022 2:47:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: K5FAL]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Does the new version work in the same gun? Haven't shot it yet. I'll go do the set-back test and post results. I measure the COAL of a round, drop the slide on it about a dozen times, and measure set-back. I'll eta it on this post. ETA- alright did it 12 times in a Colt Commander built in 1981. Started out at 1.214" ended up at 1.207" Not great, not terrible. It did feel smooth. I would rather see under .005" but I still think it'll do just fine. John Travis says it should be less than .003" No ka chunks. Pistol's ramps, throat, and chamber have never been modified or polished. I'd bet money there won't be any issues. Hell this thing will feed the old Super Vels. Anyone remember those? |
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USA
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Posted: 10/11/2022 1:31:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 45custom]
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: I have always been very interested in the '86 Shootout. I lived very close to where the final gunbattle went down and even we used to go plinking out in the Glades where Platt/Madox robbed/killed some of their victims. Lucky not at the same time. Later in the Academy we spent days reviewing the incident and all the lessons learned. My conclusion is that the performance of a 9mm Silvertip was the least consequential of all the other tactics and failures of that day. That is not to say that I blame the FBI agents, who fought hard and won the day, although at too high a cost. I blame the violent thugs who also fought hard and did A LOT of damage with 1 rifle. To say that one determined and trained man with a rifle is not a significant factor is foolhardy and everyone involved in the shootout would agree (if they were alive). The 9mm 115 Silvertip worked. It passed through an arm and caused a fatal wound. I have always heard that it perforated the paracardium and was fatal. Unfortunately the badguy did not know this and kept fighting. The 115 Silvertip would NOT be among my top 10 choices in 2021. I know that it underpenetrates but I have never heard that it's only to 8". Maybe through auto glass. I would never carry anything to maxes out at 8". But if the agents were carrying my favorite load, HST 147 +P, I doubt very much that it would have compensated for the tactics of the FBI and the badguys to matter. Ah it looks like I am responding to another comment I missed from over a year ago. Penetration figures for the older generation of 115 gr 9mm Silvertip can be found in IWBA Volume 1, Issue #4, Page 35, where a 5-shot average in bare gelatin produced a number of 8.3". This lines up with its tissue penetration in Platt, estimated at approximately 8". (Page 15.) https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?28372-Every-Issue-of-IWBA-Wound-Ballistics-Review-Available-Online The mid-2010s generation of 147 gr HST attained approximately the same expansion in bare gelatin but penetrated 6 inches deeper. This would have been sufficient to penetrate entirely through the first lung, entirely through the heart, and into the other lung. In other IWBA issues, SMEs attest that a deeper penetrating bullet would have caused rapid collapse, almost certainly incapacitating Platt before he would have killed either of the two agents who died. As analyzed by Dr. Anderson in his 1996 book, and has been widely reported by practically every reputable source I've seen, the 115 gr Silvertip did not reach the pericardium; it did not even penetrate entirely through the first lung. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/19/2022 9:26:27 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45custom: Ah it looks like I am responding to another comment I missed from over a year ago. Penetration figures for the older generation of 115 gr 9mm Silvertip can be found in IWBA Volume 1, Issue #4, Page 35, where a 5-shot average in bare gelatin produced a number of 8.3". This lines up with its tissue penetration in Platt, estimated at approximately 8". (Page 15.) https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?28372-Every-Issue-of-IWBA-Wound-Ballistics-Review-Available-Online The mid-2010s generation of 147 gr HST attained approximately the same expansion in bare gelatin but penetrated 6 inches deeper. This would have been sufficient to penetrate entirely through the first lung, entirely through the heart, and into the other lung. In other IWBA issues, SMEs attest that a deeper penetrating bullet would have caused rapid collapse, almost certainly incapacitating Platt before he would have killed either of the two agents who died. As analyzed by Dr. Anderson in his 1996 book, and has been widely reported by practically every reputable source I've seen, the 115 gr Silvertip did not reach the pericardium; it did not even penetrate entirely through the first lung. Thanks for the data. I still dont blame the 9mm Silvertip for the '86 fiasco. At the time, it was a decent load. Why Winchester still makes the same 115 Silvertip is a mystery. They should redesign it. Maybe give the 127+P+ the silver finish, redesign the bullet so it opens up better through heavy clothing and call it the Silvertip. Win! The 45ACP Silvertip load discussed in this threat looks pretty good. |
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