User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 5/7/2024 9:15:16 PM EDT
I was watching this Forgotten Weapons video on a historical example of a S&W 5906 derivative Performance Center gun:
 Ultra-Premium S&W Performance Center Model 3566 During the disassembly process at about the 8:00 mark he highlights the spherical barrel bushing system. Both mechanically and visually it’s certainly an interesting and cool system, but it got me thinking: why do some pistols use barrel bushings and other don’t need them? For example: - While that Performance Center pistol is certainly cool, the standard production DA/SA S&W autos also used a specific barrel bushing piece. - Sig P226, Wonder Nine competitor to the S&W autos, doesn’t use a bushing. - CZ 75? Bushing. Want to make your 75 more accurate? Get a CZ Custom AccuBushing so you can have even MORE bushing! - Sig P210, often thought to be one of the most accurate 9mm pistols ever produced - no bushing. - Every modern striker-fired duty pistol including the Gen 1 Glock 17, no bushing. - And then of course there’s the 1911, which absolutely must have a barrel bushing, unless your barrel is too fat to fit in a bushing in which case  So what’s the deal? Are bushings important or not? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2024 9:23:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Bumblebee_Bob]
[#1]
JMB designed the 1911 with a bushing. But not the High Power.
Later people added bull barrels to 1911s and skipped the bushing. It would be interesting to know the history/ engineering behind it. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/7/2024 11:44:51 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bumblebee_Bob: JMB designed the 1911 with a bushing. But not the High Power. Later people added bull barrels to 1911s and skipped the bushing. It would be interesting to know the history/ engineering behind it. That is precisely my point and question |
|
|
|
OH, USA
|
Posted: 5/8/2024 1:08:40 AM EDT
[#3]
Hi-power has barrel bushing. It is threaded and attached to the slide. Early S&W 39/59 had removable barrel bushing. 3rd gen whent with the similar design like BHP has permanent attached bushing to the slide.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2024 2:29:02 AM EDT
[#4]
If I were to guess it was a mechanism of guns being built by hand utilizing gunsmith fitting to increase accuracy
Modern machining allows for tighter tolerances and consistent production at much lower cost The bushings are also an added failure point but definitely a trade off. Interesting how things have evolved in a little over 100 years |
|
|
|
MI, USA
|
Posted: 5/8/2024 6:35:54 AM EDT
[#5]
Why are S&W, Kel-Tec, and Ruger Security barrels belled at the end?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2024 7:34:13 AM EDT
[#6]
I clicked on OP thread expecting a modified Python with barrel bushing. Why? Because it's OP.
So much disappointment. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2024 7:55:56 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MONGO45: If I were to guess it was a mechanism of guns being built by hand utilizing gunsmith fitting to increase accuracy Modern machining allows for tighter tolerances and consistent production at much lower cost The bushings are also an added failure point but definitely a trade off. Interesting how things have evolved in a little over 100 years I would think the above in bold is most important considering a gun design that's 100+ years old (1911). By fitting just one part correctly (the bushing) you can get a barrel with +/- specs to fit a slide with +/- specs. With machining and advances in metal work since then, I would suspect it's not needed. That's why you can basically drop any glock 17 barrel and drop it into any glock 17, or 19, or 26, etc but you can't do that with most 1911s. Also part of the reason 1911s are more mechanically accurate. |
|
|
|
KY, USA
|
Posted: 5/8/2024 8:38:42 AM EDT
[#8]
I know the early 1911 slides were very soft, not heat treated. Bushings enabled replacing a small part which might suffer from wear instead of a large, expensive part. Also easier to manufacture in the first place.
My RIA MS has a bull barrel and no bushing. Requires a paper clip to disassemble, but aside from that no problems. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2024 10:50:36 AM EDT
[#9]
Accuracy is a good point but then why is the P210 considered such an accurate pistol without using a bushing?
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2024 12:56:36 PM EDT
[#10]
Because it's Swiss. High standards to begin with, with no demands of wartime production.
Is forgotten about 1911s (the originals) having softer slides. So design a wear part that can be easily replaced, easier to heat treat (and cheaper). When 1911A1s got heat treated slides it was just easier to keep making the gun as designed rather than redesign and retool. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2024 1:49:27 PM EDT
[#11]
Fair points. So why did S&W decide to use a bushing in the 50s when they were designing the first gen DA/SA autos?
|
|
|
|
AZ, USA
|
Posted: 5/8/2024 4:58:05 PM EDT
[#12]
I think the bushing is necessary for the 1911 because the barrel is assembled through the front of the slide.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2024 5:00:50 PM EDT
[#13]
CZ 75s have barrel bushings, too.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2024 6:43:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 11boomboom: CZ 75s have barrel bushings, too. Same rules as the 1911 though - fat enough barrel, no bushing needed |
|
|
|
MI, USA
|
Posted: 5/8/2024 8:44:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EncoreGolf: Why are S&W, Kel-Tec, and Ruger Security barrels belled at the end? Anyone??? |
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 5/8/2024 9:10:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By EncoreGolf: Anyone??? Isn't that just for tighter lockup? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/8/2024 11:14:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
[#17]
Lug versus ejection port lock up.
Lugs are inferior in design and require forward support to maintain accuracy. In the case of the 5906, they use a hooded barrel. It basically looked like a crack pipe and they were notorious for wearing out at the hood before the barrel was shot out. Where as ejection port locking has much more support around the chamber of the barrel, making muzzle lock up mostly unnecessary. For supreme accuracy some pistols will still utilize muzzle lock up too. Bull barrels are more expensive to make and especially back in those days, much harder to make consistently. Fitting a bushing to a barrel is much easier and cheaper. 5906 barrel.  Attached FileCZ75 barrel.  1911 barrel.  P226 barrel. (You can see how the barrel ends up tilting into the ejection port to be fully supported versus partial lug locking on the examples above.) 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 11:55:38 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Lug versus ejection port lock up. Lugs are inferior in design and require forward support to maintain accuracy. In the case of the 5906, they use a hooded barrel. It basically looked like a crack pipe and they were notorious for wearing out at the hood before the barrel was shot out. Where as ejection port locking has much more support around the chamber of the barrel, making muzzle lock up mostly unnecessary. For supreme accuracy some pistols will still utilize muzzle lock up too. Bull barrels are more expensive to make and especially back in those days, much harder to make consistently. Fitting a bushing to a barrel is much easier and cheaper. 5906 barrel. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/IMG_3426_jpeg-3209302.JPG CZ75 barrel. https://i.ibb.co/wSF2VvM/IMG-3427.jpg 1911 barrel. https://i.ibb.co/J2VsWSm/IMG-3428.jpg P226 barrel. (You can see how the barrel ends up tilting into the ejection port to be fully supported versus partial lug locking on the examples above.) https://i.ibb.co/bdctN3X/IMG-3429.webp You sir are a true gentleman and scholar. Excellent information, thank you! |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 9:43:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rudukai13: You sir are a true gentleman and scholar. Excellent information, thank you! Bonus round: Charles Petter was the first to try it at the inspiration of JMB. His pistol and later the P210 indexed off the ejection port but still used lugs. In the early 70’s Sig was desperately trying to reduce costs for the Swiss military P210 replacement contract. This resulted in stamped and welded slides, mostly stamped internal parts, and the elimination of lug machining for the slide and barrel in the form of ejection port locking. The gun that evolved into what we know as the P226. It’s officially called the Sig Sauer system, and it was probably the last game changing advancement to pistol operation design in my opinion. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 10:13:35 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Bonus round: Charles Petter was the first to try it at the inspiration of JMB. His pistol and later the P210 indexed off the ejection port but still used lugs. In the early 70’s Sig was desperately trying to reduce costs for the Swiss military P210 replacement contract. This resulted in stamped and welded slides, mostly stamped internal parts, and the elimination of lug machining for the slide and barrel in the form of ejection port locking. The gun that evolved into what we know as the P226. It’s officially called the Sig Sauer system, and it was probably the last game changing advancement to pistol operation design in my opinion. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Originally Posted By Rudukai13: You sir are a true gentleman and scholar. Excellent information, thank you! Bonus round: Charles Petter was the first to try it at the inspiration of JMB. His pistol and later the P210 indexed off the ejection port but still used lugs. In the early 70’s Sig was desperately trying to reduce costs for the Swiss military P210 replacement contract. This resulted in stamped and welded slides, mostly stamped internal parts, and the elimination of lug machining for the slide and barrel in the form of ejection port locking. The gun that evolved into what we know as the P226. It’s officially called the Sig Sauer system, and it was probably the last game changing advancement to pistol operation design in my opinion. What’s an example of a pistol(s) that uses ejection port locking and muzzle support for extra accuracies? |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/9/2024 10:55:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rudukai13: What’s an example of a pistol(s) that uses ejection port locking and muzzle support for extra accuracies? HK USP Tactical, Elite, and Expert use an o-ring to increase lock up consistency. The Grand Power pistols use a lug, partial ejection port indexing, and bull barrels on the higher end editions. Gray Guns offers fit bull barrels for the 320 (have to send the entire gun in for fitting). You’ll also see some custom Glocks and 320’s that have a cut on the top of the slide where the front sight would be, and they leave a tang at the top of the barrel for additional lock up and an integrated front sight. This is probably the best way and I think it will become much more common. Would grab pictures but can’t remember who all is doing it now. ETA: This isn’t quite it since it’s a compensator but same concept. Just imagine it was just a slot cut at the top of the slide with a raised portion left on the barrel to fit it.  Attached File |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2024 11:36:52 AM EDT
[#22]
I’ve seen the Trinity Glock and P320 slides. Very nice but very ‘spensive
|
|
|
|
PA, USA
|
Posted: 5/10/2024 3:49:12 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryWhat in the Kentucky fried Christ is that thing? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2024 4:43:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11boomboom]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wandering_minstrel: What in the Kentucky fried Christ is that thing? I think it's the Trinity Nevada Pirho  Attached FileTrinity Nevada Pirho Complete Slide Or similar. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2024 6:10:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rudukai13: I’ve seen the Trinity Glock and P320 slides. Very nice but very ‘spensive There’s other places doing it. Had more time and they’re called hybrid barrels.  Attached File Attached File Attached FileI think if they used a taper system with slack allowance it wouldn’t be crazy expensive for this to become a regular high production thing. Think similar to the Geissele rotation tab system but slimmer and longer. It would be a terrible idea for any defensive or combat pistol though, just as slide windows are.  Attached File |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/10/2024 6:37:48 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: There’s other places doing it. Had more time and they’re called hybrid barrels. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/IMG_3437_jpeg-3210680.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/IMG_3438_jpeg-3210681.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/IMG_3439_jpeg-3210682.JPG I think if they used a taper system with slack allowance it wouldn’t be crazy expensive for this to become a regular high production thing. Think similar to the Geissele rotation tab system but slimmer and longer. It would be a terrible idea for any defensive or combat pistol though, just as slide windows are. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/IMG_3440_jpeg-3210686.JPG I've seen them called sight tracker or island barrels, too. |
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
