From opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3298.html

This event occured 6/29/07 approx 4:55pm. I was going to pick up a friend who works at a bank call center in downtown Norfolk.  I decided to park my car at a meter and wait across the street since my car didn't have any AC and it was cooler outside.  Of course you know I was OCing.  Approximately 5pm, a security guard walked past me.  I felt that he was getting a closer look.  One minute later, ANOTHER guard walked past me to get a closer look.  Now both of these guards didn't look me in the eyes, so I knew deep down, it was going to hit the fan. I checked to see what one of the guards was doing, and I noticed one of them was on a cell phone looking directly at me so I kinda knew what the call was about.  So I thought to myself, "I wonder how long it would take them to get here through all of this traffic?".  Then I thought, "who cares?".  I then heard sirens.  They seemed quite far.  As time went by slowly in my mind, I could hear them getting closer and closer.  Next thing I know I see a squad car turn down a street and I thought, "oh there they are".  Next thing happened was quite a surprise. Ready? A officer came around the corner with his glock 19 drawn pointing at my chest. LEO1 - TURN AROUND AND PUT YOUR HANDS ON THE WALL!!! Me - Um, am I under arrest? LEO1 - PUT YOUR HANDS ON THE WALL!!! I did what I was told, seeing that I couldn't convince him otherwise.  He approached slowly and I wasn't sure who put the cuffs on.  Then came the questioning. LEO1 - What are you doing? LEO2 - Why are you carrying a gun? Me - I'm... LEO1 - Why is it loaded and cocked? LEO2 - Do you have a permit to carry that? Me - It's a 1911, it supposed to be carried in cocked and locked and I'm open carrying it, I don't need a permit. LEO2 - Do you realize you are standing near a bank with a gun?  What are you doing? Me - Now I know you are just doing your job, but I'm not answering your questions without a lawyer present.  (at this point I was pissed). LEO2 -  Fine.  (he then reaches into my pocket to get my wallet and get my ID) Me - I didn't consent to you searching me. LEO2 - I'm getting your ID. Me - Again, I didn't consent to a search. (meanwhile the other officer is glaring at my 1911) Me - I don't consent to the seizure of my firearm. LEO2 - You know carrying around a gun like this, especially in front of the bank is going to get attention and you got it.  And what's with this hat, "Black man with a gun"?  You are really looking for attention. Me - I like to exercise my 1st and 2nd Amendment rights.  So I'm being detained? LEO2 - Yup. Me - And why am I in cuffs again?  I didn't do anything illegal. LEO2 - For our safety. Me - And mine. LEO2 - You know that if you even cover up your firearm, it would be concealed and we could arrest you. Me - Yeah....and that's why I'm carrying it openly. While LEO2 when to "check my papers", I tried to make small talk with LEO1.  Asking him how was his day going, what caliber glock do you guys carry, general stuff.  And I could tell he wasn't happy.  I felt that he KNEW I wasn't doing anything wrong, especially since he was giving me 1 word answers.  I then overheard over his radio that the call was for a man carrying in plain sight.  So I wanted to ask the ultimate question that I wanted to know the answer to. Me - So, uh, after you guys let me go, what are you going to do? LEO1 - My friend came out the building and instructed friend to wait by the car.  LEO2 came back and took the cuffs off. Me - So I'm free to go? LEO1 & 2 - Me - Thank you officers, have a great day! Before LEO2 could even gather enough breathe to say something (trying to get in the last word)... Me - Thank you, have a great day! LEO2 started to walk me with me trying to get the last word. LEO2 - You know that there are certain places where you cannot carry that? Me - Already know that, have a great day!! LEO2 - Now, I'm going down to the Norfolk Police Admin office to file a complaint and try to get a FOIA.  Well see what happens then.

Update 3 July:

Just to give everyone an update.  I went to pick up my friend yesterday and got the cops called on me again (I believe it's the same security guard that called the cops the last time).  It happened as soon as my friend came out the building!  Such bad timing. They sent 4 this time, however they didn't come out with guns drawn.  I was put in handcuffs, they took my gun, they searched for my ID, all the while I verbally stating that I did not consent to a search or seizure. I was very upset once again, so my responses weren't very nice.  No cussing, but just very smart ass.  Yeah, I know I shouldn't have given the officers a hard time for doing their jobs, but once they acknoledge that I'm not doing anything illegal, it's on like donkey kong. I ended up in the squad car for being such a smart ass, however the cuffs were not double locked, causing my right wrist to slighty bruise.  I informed the officer who did nothing of course (I expected him to do that). What was REALLY funny was that 2 of the responding officers ran my "papers" twice to make sure they didn't miss anything.  Then they made me give up my fingerprint (right thumb) on this FYI card and tried to tell me that I'm asking for trouble blah blah blah, the cop lecture.  THEN they said I couldn't come back on this street.  A public street mind you.  Then after telling them it's a public street, they instructed me that I couldn't touch the wall, but I could come back.  And he advised me that if I came back, they would put me in handcuffs, and run my "papers"again. And of course, Brian wasn't with me.  I was dressed nicely.  Didn't even have "the hat". Time for another FOIA, yay! Edit - I forgot to add that my firearm was 8+1 when I got there, and 7+1 after they gave it back to me.  Then they said, your gun only holds 7 rounds in the mag.  After I showed him the mag (it has 8 liitle holes ) the officer said, "oh, it must be French". Smith and Wesson...French?

I've spent time in Norfolk without hearing that the police there are worse than anyplace else.  Police repeatedly hassling someone who is fully complying with the law seems really odd.

Anyone here know any Norfolk officers?  The other side of the story would be very interesting.

God only knows what the officers were told by their dispatcher via the complainant caller.  I'm sure it wasn't just "cool guy hanging out open carrying a pistol in no violation at all".  You can bet the caller hyped the whole thing up.
If you open carry, you will draw some attention, not all of it good, from citizens and LE alike.  That is a chance you take.  
It is really sad that people get so worked up over the sight of a holstered pistol, though.  

Quoted: God only knows what the officers were told by their dispatcher via the complainant caller.  I'm sure it wasn't just "cool guy hanging out open carrying a pistol in no violation at all".  You can bet the caller hyped the whole thing up. If you open carry, you will draw some attention, not all of it good, from citizens and LE alike.  That is a chance you take.   It is really sad that people get so worked up over the sight of a holstered pistol, though.

I would like to hear more about this.  I would especially like to see the FOIA report. I live in Norfolk and hope this isn't an indication of a trend here. I concealed carry oftern and have never had a problem.  However, I seldom open carry.

Hopefully the victim in this has been in contact with VCDL Phil Van Cleve. I would also recommend he contact Bob Marcus owner of Bob's Gunshop. Bob is a huge 2nd amendment supporter and is politically active in Norfolk. I really believe if the city thought they could head off a civil suit with an apology and instructions to the offending officers as well as instruction/remedial training for the entire force regarding open and concealed carry laws, they would do so.

Quoted: I really believe if the city thought they could head off a civil suit with an apology and instructions to the offending officers as well as instruction/remedial training for the entire force regarding open and concealed carry laws, they would do so.

Remedial training? The cop drew on a guy minding his own business doing nothing wrong. That guy should get fired, and then training for the rest of the force.

What if the cop had, say, "tripped" or "knocked into something" like the Fairfax SWAT guy?

I also think having that guy and 20 other gun nuts open carrying at the same location would be a nice idea as well. Just standing around chatting and having a coffee.

Remedial training? The cop drew on a guy minding his own business doing nothing wrong. That guy should get fired, and then training for the rest of the force.

Like I said, we don't know what was broadcast to the responding officers.  I've been on literally hundreds of "man with a gun" calls in DC, MD and VA.  Nothing is ever as good or as bad as initially reported.

What if the cop had, say, "tripped" or "knocked into something" like the Fairfax SWAT guy?
Then he would be subjecting his agency and himself to the same liability as any other negligent discharge suit would.

I also think having that guy and 20 other gun nuts open carrying at the same location would be a nice idea as well. Just standing around chatting and having a coffee.

I happen to agree wholeheartedly

Wonderful. Paging PVC.

Quoted: I also think having that guy and 20 other gun nuts open carrying at the same location would be a nice idea as well. Just standing around chatting and having a coffee.

I am free to join in and, I love coffee!!

Quoted: Quoted: I really believe if the city thought they could head off a civil suit with an apology and instructions to the offending officers as well as instruction/remedial training for the entire force regarding open and concealed carry laws, they would do so. Remedial training? The cop drew on a guy minding his own business doing nothing wrong. That guy should get fired, and then training for the rest of the force. What if the cop had, say, "tripped" or "knocked into something" like the Fairfax SWAT guy? I also think having that guy and 20 other gun nuts open carrying at the same location would be a nice idea as well. Just standing around chatting and having a coffee.

I won't call out names at this point, but to provide the sentiments of another ARFCOM member's response to the Fairfax incident - good shoot. Basically you're up the creek if LEO merely have to show up for any reason.

ETA clarity

Quoted: What if the cop had, say, "tripped" or "knocked into something" like the Fairfax SWAT guy? Then he would be subjecting his agency and himself to the same liability as any other negligent discharge suit would.

I don't think that was the poster's point. It's that an innocent person would be dead, it trivializes human life to talk of such things strictly in terms of liability. I'm interested to hear what more there is to this story, b/c you know for better or worse, there's more.

There is more unfortunately.  Another open carrier had an encounter with the NPD, not as bad as Danbus's but it's still bad when the cops try to tell people what they are doing is illegal.opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3368.html

Im interested to see where this is going.  Is there going to be an "open carry day" in downtown?  Those bastards had to get rid of their illegal signs in Town Point Park.

B  (lives in Ches, works in Norf)

This is my surprised face.

You know, this is starting to get to be a reoccurring theme. Sigh.

Oh, and this dude should learn - he needs to carry a voice recorder and have it running. Makes these types of incidents a lot more fun.

TR

Not to change the subject, but I was stopped in Chesapeake for an expired inspection, all else was current.  Gave her the liscense and registration.

She comes back, "sir, do you have a weapon in your possesion".....  I pause long and hard while holding still.......  "NO, not today, why do you ask"

She says, "It is an officer safety issue,.......  I did not know until I got back to the car with your liscense that you had a permit"

NO SHIT SHERLOCK, that is why it is CCW.  So I asked if it was a new city policy to be informed by anyone with a CCW because I knew the state of VA was not a "must inform" state.

She said it had nothing to do with that and I should have told her.  I let it go.

One must think however, what if I had said yes????  I think it would have went about like the above.

CCW and state inspection don't have jack shit to do with one another.  Does she think the illegals that she pulls and do not have a liscense are un armed, oh wait, they probably can't ask an illegal if they have a weapon.....

Goes to show you that CCW absolutely should not be on drivers liscense, they are not related.  Many other states have ruled it is uncontitutional for the CCW info to be on your drivers liscense.  

Of course if I were carrying and she asked me to get out or something I would have brought at the point when it MAY have mattered.

PS, I know open carry is legal but there is no reason on earth I would do that in public.  The only time that I have done in the past is on my property after a hurricane while cleaning up the lawn.  A drop leg tends to tell the neighbors to fuck off.

Quoted:I also think having that guy and 20 other gun nuts open carrying at the same location would be a nice idea as well. Just standing around chatting and having a coffee.

let me know when. it needs to be a weekend but i would be there just to show support. of course my kimber will be on my side cocked, locked, and in plain sight. of course i will have a copy of Va's open carry law in hand as well.

Quoted: This is my surprised face. You know, this is starting to get to be a reoccurring theme. Sigh. Oh, and this dude should learn - he needs to carry a voice recorder and have it running. Makes these types of incidents a lot more fun. TR

Is that legal?   Not like taping a phone call?

Quoted: Quoted: This is my surprised face. You know, this is starting to get to be a reoccurring theme. Sigh. Oh, and this dude should learn - he needs to carry a voice recorder and have it running. Makes these types of incidents a lot more fun. TR Is that legal?   Not like taping a phone call?

It is legal, Virginia is a one party consent to record state.

§ 19.2-62. Interception, disclosure, etc., of wire, electronic or oral communications unlawful; penalties; exceptions.

B2. It shall not be a criminal offense under this chapter for a person to intercept a wire, electronic or oral communication, where such person is a party to the communication or one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception.
See : leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+19.2-62

I also think having that guy and 20 other gun nuts open carrying at the same location would be a nice idea as well. Just standing around chatting and having a coffee.

Sorta like the 20 or so we had at our cookout at Burke Lake recently? We even had a police helicopter show up. Nobody got cuffed though - I guess the Fairfax cops have been learning, unlike the Tidewater Kops.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3190.html

We did have a great time...

heh, i was pulled over for speeding by a couple of state police troopers (yeah, 2 units)  and one of them took my papers to run me. when he came back he asked if i was armed and i told him i was carrying a .45 glock. he goes, "a glock, huh?" i said "yeah, wanna see it?" and he actually said yes! i pulled it out (they're standing on both sides of my vehicle) kept it pointing down in the passenger wheel well, pulled the magazine, ejected the round, and locked the slide back and handed it to him. he took it back behind my truck and both of them were looking it over like a couple of kids with a new toy, then he comes back and remarked how light it was and asked how it shot. i told him how good it was, low recoil, reliable, blah blah blah and he handed it back, said thanks and slow down, and let me go. how wild is that!!!???

i guess cops are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is my surprised face. You know, this is starting to get to be a reoccurring theme. Sigh. Oh, and this dude should learn - he needs to carry a voice recorder and have it running. Makes these types of incidents a lot more fun. TR Is that legal?   Not like taping a phone call? It is legal, Virginia is a one party consent to record state. § 19.2-62. Interception, disclosure, etc., of wire, electronic or oral communications unlawful; penalties; exceptions. B2. It shall not be a criminal offense under this chapter for a person to intercept a wire, electronic or oral communication, where such person is a party to the communication or one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception. See : leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+19.2-62

Film crew.  Parked in a van just waiting to ambush the officers on video

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is my surprised face. You know, this is starting to get to be a reoccurring theme. Sigh. Oh, and this dude should learn - he needs to carry a voice recorder and have it running. Makes these types of incidents a lot more fun. TR Is that legal?   Not like taping a phone call? It is legal, Virginia is a one party consent to record state. § 19.2-62. Interception, disclosure, etc., of wire, electronic or oral communications unlawful; penalties; exceptions. B2. It shall not be a criminal offense under this chapter for a person to intercept a wire, electronic or oral communication, where such person is a party to the communication or one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception. See : leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+19.2-62 Film crew.  Parked in a van just waiting to ambush the officers on video

You may be closer to the truth than you know.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is my surprised face. You know, this is starting to get to be a reoccurring theme. Sigh. Oh, and this dude should learn - he needs to carry a voice recorder and have it running. Makes these types of incidents a lot more fun. TR Is that legal?   Not like taping a phone call? It is legal, Virginia is a one party consent to record state. § 19.2-62. Interception, disclosure, etc., of wire, electronic or oral communications unlawful; penalties; exceptions. B2. It shall not be a criminal offense under this chapter for a person to intercept a wire, electronic or oral communication, where such person is a party to the communication or one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception. See : leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+19.2-62 Film crew.  Parked in a van just waiting to ambush the officers on video You may be closer to the truth than you know.

If I was down there I would be game for a little civil disobedience

height=8

Quoted: heh, i was pulled over for speeding by a couple of state police troopers (yeah, 2 units)  and one of them took my papers to run me. when he came back he asked if i was armed and i told him i was carrying a .45 glock. he goes, "a glock, huh?" i said "yeah, wanna see it?" and he actually said yes! i pulled it out (they're standing on both sides of my vehicle) kept it pointing down in the passenger wheel well, pulled the magazine, ejected the round, and locked the slide back and handed it to him. he took it back behind my truck and both of them were looking it over like a couple of kids with a new toy, then he comes back and remarked how light it was and asked how it shot. i told him how good it was, low recoil, reliable, blah blah blah and he handed it back, said thanks and slow down, and let me go. how wild is that!!!???hocolates,

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
another blog WITH STUPID RESPONSES about this stuff, and every body talking about showing up and making a statement by making cops feel like asses and that they can go and challenge them out in public.
get a CCW and forget the issue.
you would have made me nervouse to see somebody around a bank carrying a gun in the open, i dont know you, and i dont know what your intentions are.
plus i also agree that you dont know how the call was run and recieve by the police officers, comon people put your self on their shoes.
I DO BELIEVE THOSE OFFICERS NEED TO BE EDUCATED AND DISCIPLINE, BUT NOT FIRED?

Quoted: heh, i was pulled over for speeding by a couple of state police troopers (yeah, 2 units)  and one of them took my papers to run me. when he came back he asked if i was armed and i told him i was carrying a .45 glock. he goes, "a glock, huh?" i said "yeah, wanna see it?" and he actually said yes! i pulled it out (they're standing on both sides of my vehicle) kept it pointing down in the passenger wheel well, pulled the magazine, ejected the round, and locked the slide back and handed it to him. he took it back behind my truck and both of them were looking it over like a couple of kids with a new toy, then he comes back and remarked how light it was and asked how it shot. i told him how good it was, low recoil, reliable, blah blah blah and he handed it back, said thanks and slow down, and let me go. how wild is that!!!??? i guess cops are like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get!

That is pretty wild , I was chatting with one of the Va state guys the other day at work, we were standing next to my car parked out in front of the office building.

He noticed my rear seat folded down, and also noticed the AR 15 and the 10/22 I had in the trunk, comments went like this.

Trooper: Hey, what kind of guns you got back there.

Me (forgetting I had them in the trunk for the range trip after work): Oh, its an AR 15 and a 10/22 , I am going to the range after work.

Trooper: Cool, have a good weekend man!

Most of the Va state guys I know are all in the know about the carry laws, I have questioned most of the ones that pass through the office, just to see if the know, all the ones I questioned know that open carry is 100% legal.

I am not speaking on all the state guys, but just the ones I have met and talked to. I don't know. maybe they are getting different/better training??

Quoted: AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! another blog WITH STUPID RESPONSES about this stuff, and every body talking about showing up and making a statement by making cops feel like asses and that they can go and challenge them out in public. get a CCW and forget the issue. you would have made me nervouse to see somebody around a bank carrying a gun in the open, i dont know you, and i dont know what your intentions are. plus i also agree that you dont know how the call was run and recieve by the police officers, comon people put your self on their shoes. I DO BELIEVE THOSE OFFICERS NEED TO BE EDUCATED AND DISCIPLINE, BUT NOT FIRED?

You remind me of people who say we shouldn't have guns at all.  "I don't know you, and I don't know what your intentions are."  Well, I'm sorry.  I didn't know any of us were obligated to make everyone warm and fuzzy when we exercised our Freedoms .  

Your other comments sound like people who say you should never drive bright colored cars, talk on a cell phone, go on fancy vacations, whatever, because it might 'attract attention.'  Sorry - I choose not to live my life in fear of what someone may think.

I don't care how the call was made.  Seriously.  A weapon should be drawn and pointed only in situations where a person has proven they're an immediate danger to you or the innocents around them.  Period.  A guy standing around with his hands in his pockets hardly qualifies.  I'm also curious how we justify the second time (and the threats with similar treatment if he does it again)?  

If the LEO pulled people over going 55 MPH down the road, handcuffed them, fingerprinted them, threatened them and pointed guns at them, would you be defending them then?  Open carry is 100% legal, and it's 100% legal near a bank.  It's no different than driving the speed limit down a public highway.  I will be *@#% if I think an LEO who threatens, points guns and cuffs people obeying the law shouldn't be fired or written up.  If you or I pointed a gun at someone just because somebody thought they looked suspicious, we would be in jail right now (and rightfully so).  Talk to our friend from the same area who responded with a handgun tucked behind his leg when confronting a suspected car thief in his own driveway.  

Sorry if I come across like I'm blasting you looey - that's not my intention.  I don't think we have enough balanced info to draw conclusions either way about the incident above yet.  I do know that I have a huge problem with the LEOs IF this story is true, and don't think CCW is the right answer just because OC upsets someone.  

Looey,

I am with you! There is a reason why I have not been in this situation (I Think Before I Act). People can defend Open Carry as much as they want, but common sense says, Why make **** of yourself?

I don't need to show-off I GOT GUNZ. Can't say more on this incident, but I guess Bank should have had "No Loittering, WhatsoEver, Within 100 meters radius" :-). People go with perception and if they (Guards) would not have acted, they would have been blamed. However I agree, The Cop would have acted little bit sane, but he only knew the Heat.

We can sit here and rant and chant all we want!!

223

Quoted: Quoted: AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! another blog WITH STUPID RESPONSES about this stuff, and every body talking about showing up and making a statement by making cops feel like asses and that they can go and challenge them out in public. get a CCW and forget the issue. you would have made me nervouse to see somebody around a bank carrying a gun in the open, i dont know you, and i dont know what your intentions are. plus i also agree that you dont know how the call was run and recieve by the police officers, comon people put your self on their shoes. I DO BELIEVE THOSE OFFICERS NEED TO BE EDUCATED AND DISCIPLINE, BUT NOT FIRED? You remind me of people who say we shouldn't have guns at all.  "I don't know you, and I don't know what your intentions are."  Well, I'm sorry.  I didn't know any of us were obligated to make everyone warm and fuzzy when we exercised our Freedoms .   Your other comments sound like people who say you should never drive bright colored cars, talk on a cell phone, go on fancy vacations, whatever, because it might 'attract attention.'  Sorry - I choose not to live my life in fear of what someone may think. I don't care how the call was made.  Seriously.  A weapon should be drawn and pointed only in situations where a person has proven they're an immediate danger to you or the innocents around them.  Period.  A guy standing around with his hands in his pockets hardly qualifies.  I'm also curious how we justify the second time (and the threats with similar treatment if he does it again)?   If the LEO pulled people over going 55 MPH down the road, handcuffed them, fingerprinted them, threatened them and pointed guns at them, would you be defending them then?  Open carry is 100% legal, and it's 100% legal near a bank.  It's no different than driving the speed limit down a public highway.  I will be *@#% if I think an LEO who threatens, points guns and cuffs people obeying the law shouldn't be fired or written up.  If you or I pointed a gun at someone just because somebody thought they looked suspicious, we would be in jail right now (and rightfully so).  Talk to our friend from the same area who responded with a handgun tucked behind his leg when confronting a suspected car thief in his own driveway.   Sorry if I come across like I'm blasting you looey - that's not my intention.  I don't think we have enough balanced info to draw conclusions either way about the incident above yet.  I do know that I have a huge problem with the LEOs IF this story is true, and don't think CCW is the right answer just because OC upsets someone.

Open carry near a bank is legal...just as open carry in a bar is legal...but that doesn't mean it's the smartest or most prudent thing to do.  In today's world, with everyone on edge w/ terrorism and bombings near airports and the like, people get nervous and excited by these types of things.  The average person won't or can't understand that some people choose to carry to help protect themselves.  The average person sees a gun and gets a bit scared.   Anyone on this forum who can buy a gun, should be able to afford the $50 for a 5 year permit.  

As for living your life without being worried about what someone else may think I can't say I blame you there.  However, take one small step back and think about what your actions may cause.  I agree, I don't much care about what people think of me, but I also don't go out and purposefully cause panic or uneasiness.  I think about the unintentional consequences of my actions...I may not always care, but I am aware of the possible issues.

I am NOT saying that if the events unfolded as they did down in Norfolk, that the cops were right...I'm just saying it probably could have been avoided.  

height=8

Quoted: height=8 Quoted: AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! another blog WITH STUPID RESPONSES about this stuff, and every body talking about showing up and making a statement by making cops feel like asses and that they can go and challenge them out in public. get a CCW and forget the issue. you would have made me nervouse to see somebody around a bank carrying a gun in the open, i dont know you, and i dont know what your intentions are. plus i also agree that you dont know how the call was run and recieve by the police officers, comon people put your self on their shoes. I DO BELIEVE THOSE OFFICERS NEED TO BE EDUCATED AND DISCIPLINE, BUT NOT FIRED? You remind me of people who say we shouldn't have guns at all.  "I don't know you, and I don't know what your intentions are."  Well, I'm sorry.  I didn't know any of us were obligated to make everyone warm and fuzzy when we exercised our Freedoms her I don't care how the call was made.  Seriously.  A weapon should be drawn and pointed only in situations where a person has proven they're an immediate danger to you or the innocents around them.  Period.  A guy standing around with his hands in his pockets hardly qualifies.  I'm also curious how we justify the second time (and the threats with similar treatment if he does it again)? heshouldn't be fired or written up.  If you or I pointed a gun at someone just because somebody thought they looked suspicious, we would be in jail right now (and rightfully so).  Talk to our friend from the same area who responded with a handgun tucked behind his leg when confronting a suspected car thief in his own driveway.   Sorry if I come across like I'm blasting you looey - that's not my intention.  I don't think we have enough balanced info to draw conclusions either way about the incident above yet.  I do know that I have a huge problem with the LEOs IF this story is true, and don't think CCW is the right answer just because OC upsets someone.

well Blackfox let me tell you somethings about my self:
my name is Luis, former Marine and proud owner of many firearms.
I love shooting and competing in IPSC, IDPA and three gun competitions.
I don't have any specific intentions, but i will be dam if some dumb ass gives somebody an excuse to take my right to defend my self by carrying a concealed hand gun away.

there was no need to have this situation, even if you do have a concealed carry permit you know that you cant do it in a bank(which i don't necessarily agree with)
I don't worry that much about what people think about me, but i am very aware to the fact that not every body loves or even likes guns and concealed carry as much as i do. for that reason I will carry my self as best as i can and try to be a good example of a responsible gun owner not a person attracting unwanted attention, always hoping that i will never have to draw my gun out of its holster, .
I think that any one not in condition white would have felt uncomfortable if encountering an individual outside a bank with a gun in the open, at least I would.
but that is my humble opinion, and no Blackfox you will never hear me speak against firearms, I like them to much and that is one reason why i didn't go back to NYC(besides Hillary)heit is legal but not smart to open carry around a bank, like it has been said before. a person being drag out of a car and handcuff for speeding is totally different than responding to a call of an armed individual in front of a bank. if you don't think so go out and spend a couple of nights with your local LEO on a ride along, you might change your mind. hinking.gif

you will hear me speak against people talking on the phone and driving. some of this people cant walk and chew gum at the same time, but they choose to put other people in danger so they can use a phone?  once again just my opinion

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Quoted: It is legal but not smart to open carry around a bank, like it has been said before. a person being drag out of a car and handcuff for speeding is totally different than responding to a call of an armed individual in front of a bank.

So, as a business owner, when I'm making a huge ass deposit at my local bank, I should just either CCW or leave my gun at home because YOU feel uncomfortable?

No. FOAD.

Quoted: even if you do have a concealed carry permit you know that you cant do it in a bank(which i don't necessarily agree with)

Sorry bro...but I believe you are wrong about that one point in your post...the law doesn't prohibit carrying concealed into a bank...only those little signs on the doors to the bank do.  

Looey,

I am telling this you the last time :-)
I totally understand you and know where you are coming from. If folks here doubt you, let them, they have every reason to doubt you. Let them be happy, don't justify urself man, YOU ARE RIGHT!!

Lunatic to think circling around Bank with any firearm and not draw attention :-P

223

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Quoted: height=8 Quoted: It is legal but not smart to open carry around a bank, like it has been said before. a person being drag out of a car and handcuff for speeding is totally different than responding to a call of an armed individual in front of a bank. So, as a business owner, when I'm making a huge ass deposit at my local bank, I should just either CCW or leave my gun at home because YOU feel uncomfortable? No. FOAD.

Chesty i dont disagree with you, not at all but look at my point of view.

As i was taught. you can make your self a soft target or a hard target,
but if some one really wants to get you, they will, and they will try to surprise you. If you set up a pattern you will make easier for them, i will not say more than that.

Like I said I agree with your choice to have a means to defend your self, but know that surprise can some times be your best advantage, but being aware of your surroundings can help you more than anything else. having a gun does not keep you safe or does it????
If they would we wouldn't loose police officers in the line of duty, know would we?
do not let a handgun at your side make you think your untouchable, if you do i will hear about you in the news.

05LOWRIDER you are right, thanks for making that clear.

Ok, when did open carrying go from carrying a weapon to defend yourself to "i'm going to make a scene and push an agenda"?

I understand it is generally misinformed LEOs who make the scene (although when I was a civilian i had multiple contacts with LEOs in multiple jurisdictions while OCing, nary a problem), The fact of the matter is that more and more people are carrying openly to "prove a point".  Why?  do you really want to feel like billy badass by carrying a gun, or do you want to feel like you're pushing cops around?  Carrying a gun openly for no reason is buying a ticket to the "Shoot me first if you're a criminal" carnival ride.

ETA I understand that it is our right to do it, however the right was intended so that citizens of VA could protect themselves without needing to get a permit to do so.  If you qualify for CCW, what then is the point of OC other than to reinforce something that is a longstanding law and no one is looking to change.

Looey, you wouldnt happen to be Luis from VA arms would you

Here's my $.02.

Open vs. concealed carry has been debated ad nauseum around here, and a conclusion is never reached.

First, you have people debating the practicality of open carrying.  You can't prove them wrong, because the arguments they offer are irrefutable.  But they are also irrelevant arguments.

Could the situation have been avoided?  OBVIOUSLY it could have.
Is the general rule of carrying to not attract attention to yourself?  OBVIOUSLY it is.
Is carrying openly when you could carry concealed smart?  OBVIOUSLY not.
Are you in a better position to defend yourself when you have the element of surprise?  OBVIOUSLY you are.

Second, you have people trying to demonstrate that open carry has practical purposes.  "I can draw faster."  "I can't CCW with my spandex pants."  These arguments are just a distraction

Then you have the occasional person who says "It's my right to open carry."  And that's the correct answer.  Only problem is that they can't (or don't) articulate it any better than that, because their thinking doesn't go any further than that.  Contrary to what they claim, it makes no sense to do something which could be dangerous to your wellbeing just "because you can."  These people are seen as trouble makers who "just have a problem with authority."

What does make sense, though, is to push back when pushed.  Not because you have a problem with authority, but because you have a problem with illegitimate and illegal authority.  And every time an open carrier is accosted, gun owners are being pushed.  Gun owners are harrassed, intimidated, and even arrested for something that has NO BASIS IN THE LAW.  And this is the direction in which this country generally is headed.  More and more people are being detained, charged, and EVEN CONVICTED of things that are not crimes.

If everbody considers this a right which doesn't mean much, and everybody isn't willing to push back by going out and walking around their local bank with their guns strapped to their hips, eventually open carry will be outlawed.  Because nobody does it.  And nobody cares if anybody does it.  Because it's a "silly right."  Laws either get passed because their is a constituency for them, or because people are COMPLACENT about them.

If we're complacent about it, and open carry is illegal, soon enough we'll be getting tickets because our CCW printed.  Soon enough they'll make the argument that open carry is less dangerous to "public safety" than concealed carry and, since open carry is illegal, so should be concealed carry.

Stories like this make me want to open carry next time I go to use the ATM.  Not because I want to make myself a target, not because I want to cause a cop a hassle, and not because I'm looking for trouble.  But because freedom usually is not lost in leaps and bounds.  It's lost in increments.

This is an increment.

Well heck in true ARFCOM fashion the only appropriate thing to do is do BOTH. Carry openly to press rights and get the sheeple used to seeing someone carrying and then having a concealed weapon to maintain the tactical advantage. I mean come on who would expect someone to be carrying openly and concealed at the same time?

I can't believe there is anyone HERE telling someone how NOT to carry a gun. I don't care if you carry a gun for protection, political points, or just to scare the sheeple. The police have stepped over the line. PERIOD. this whole thing makes me want to carry open and maybe seeing lawful gun owners harassed will wake a few people up. If I were standing in a Bank line and someone was waiting outside with a gun I would feel better. Any idiot should know that someone going to cause trouble wouldn't advertise it. If seeing people walking freely about exercising a freedom older then our country scares someone, screw em........

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." -- Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis (1952)

Quoted: I can't believe there is anyone HERE telling someone how NOT to carry a gun. I don't care if you carry a gun for protection, political points, or just to scare the sheeple. The police have stepped over the line. PERIOD. this whole thing makes me want to carry open and maybe seeing lawful gun owners harassed will wake a few people up. If I were standing in a Bank line and someone was waiting outside with a gun I would feel better. Any idiot should know that someone going to cause trouble wouldn't advertise it. If seeing people walking freely about exercising a freedom older then our country scares someone, screw em........ "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." -- Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis (1952)

And my point is proven!  Carrying a gun = I'm cool and can do what I want nowadays.  Why would this happening to some other guy make you want to change what you're doing?  Go to the GA, go to the newspapers, scream it in the halls of Congress, but for crying out loud you're just trying to stir shit up with an attitude like this.  If you have OC'd for 20 years and thats just the way you do things, fine.  But if you CCW why would an incident where someone gets harassed cause you to want to be harassed?

Quoted: And my point is proven!  Carrying a gun = I'm cool and can do what I want nowadays.  Why would this happening to some other guy make you want to change what you're doing?  Go to the GA, go to the newspapers, scream it in the halls of Congress, but for crying out loud you're just trying to stir shit up with an attitude like this.  If you have OC'd for 20 years and thats just the way you do things, fine.  But if you CCW why would an incident where someone gets harassed cause you to want to be harassed?

Have you ever heard of civil disobedience?  As in, the times when "petitioning for redress of grievances" doesn't work?  You think the papers give a shit?  You think Congress gives a shit?  Would you prefer these guys just shoot the cop who tries to arrest them, on the grounds that it is an illegal arrest?    This is the way things are done without violence.  They arrest one person on a baseless charge, you put two people out there the next day doing the same thing.  They arrest them, you put ten people out there, or a hundred, or a thousand.

Eventually, they just can't stop you anymore.  And nobody gets hurt.

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Quoted: Looey, you wouldnt happen to be Luis from VA arms would you how are you doing? UNIT..

Quoted: And my point is proven!  Carrying a gun = I'm cool and can do what I want nowadays.  Why would this happening to some other guy make you want to change what you're doing?  Go to the GA, go to the newspapers, scream it in the halls of Congress, but for crying out loud you're just trying to stir shit up with an attitude like this.  If you have OC'd for 20 years and thats just the way you do things, fine.  But if you CCW why would an incident where someone gets harassed cause you to want to be harassed?

For me I would say its because I still have a little young punk inside and he creeps out once in a while.  In other words, I don't care what gang who is in, but if you mess with my friends you mess with me. (Unless they were doing really stupid stuff.  Then thats their fault.)  

Stick together don't fight amongst each other.  If you don't want to fight this fight then hold back for the one you will need to fight.

Rights are like muscles.

Without exercise, they atrophy and die.

Honestly, I don't buy much of the anti-open carry hooha; there just isn't any data that shows this to be a problem.

What is a problem is the Law Enforcement community attempting to harass and intimidate people who have not broken the law.

We could probably stand here all day and make comparisons to other (in)famous analogues of this situation, but let's spare ourselves and get to the heart of the matter:

If the sight of a armed, law abiding citizen going about his or her daily activities is cause for concern, we should ask ourselves why this is.


Carrying a handgun is not a statement of 'Oh, I'm such a bad-ass' or 'Look at me, Look at me!' as it is a statement that you, as an individual, have made a promise to yourself that you are ultimately responsible for you safety and that you accept this burden.

This used to not be a big deal; unless Jeff Cooper, et al has been lying to me all these years. I'm saddened to see the apparent change of this attitude of my fellow countrymen.

Every individual has a right to defend him or herself; you have a right to your life. Thankfully, the most effective means of doing so, the handgun, has not been made illegal in the wonderful Commonwealth.

I intend to see this is always the case as long as I draw a breath on this mortal coil - for my son, and his sons.

Bravo to those that have faced this problem - may you be granted courage and strength.

TR

Quoted: Quoted: And my point is proven!  Carrying a gun = I'm cool and can do what I want nowadays.  Why would this happening to some other guy make you want to change what you're doing?  Go to the GA, go to the newspapers, scream it in the halls of Congress, but for crying out loud you're just trying to stir shit up with an attitude like this.  If you have OC'd for 20 years and thats just the way you do things, fine.  But if you CCW why would an incident where someone gets harassed cause you to want to be harassed? Have you ever heard of civil disobedience?  As in, the times when "petitioning for redress of grievances" doesn't work?  You think the papers give a shit?  You think Congress gives a shit?  Would you prefer these guys just shoot the cop who tries to arrest them, on the grounds that it is an illegal arrest?    This is the way things are done without violence.  They arrest one person on a baseless charge, you put two people out there the next day doing the same thing.  They arrest them, you put ten people out there, or a hundred, or a thousand. Eventually, they just can't stop you anymore.  And nobody gets hurt.

Hey, have fun with your civil disobedience (why do you call it disobedience when it is legal?).  If you guys want to play cowboy and change society, more power to you.

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Quoted: I can't believe there is anyone HERE telling someone how NOT to carry a gun. I don't care if you carry a gun for protection, political points, or just to scare the sheeple. The police have stepped over the line. PERIOD. this whole thing makes me want to carry open and maybe seeing lawful gun owners harassed will wake a few people up. If I were standing in a Bank line and someone was waiting outside with a gun I would feel better. Any idiot should know that someone going to cause trouble wouldn't advertise it. If seeing people walking freely about exercising a freedom older then our country scares someone, screw em........ "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." -- Sigmund Freud, General Introduction to Psychoanalysis (1952)

Well i guess i am sexually weetarded haven, i am not afraid of weapons i am afraid of the wrong person with a weapon(which can be anything from a knife to a car if you use the word weapon)

FIREARMS are TOOLS, in don't agree with some of the things i have heard like
"guns kills people" or "guns save lives" neither one is true in my opinion.
It takes somebody behind the trigger of this tools to make something good or bad to happen.
In the hands of some one like Phil Strader, Todd Jarrett or Jerry Miculek you will be amazed at what those guys can do. hock.gif hock.gif

I AM A GUN LOVING, OWNING, CARRYING AMERICAN. THAT WILL GO TO BAT FOR MY RIGHT.
I CHOOSE TO CARRY CONCEALED, ITS UP TO EACH INDIVIDUAL TO CARRY AS HE SEES FIT. JUST DONT COMPLAINT IF YOU GET HARRASED BY CARRYING IN THE OPEN, SPECIALLY IF NOT DONE IN THE SMARTEST WAY.
YES WE SHOULD CONSIDER OTHER PEOPLE, SPECIALLY IF WE DO CHOOSE TO CARRY IN THE OPEN, THEY LIVE IN THIS GUN LOVING STATE TOO AND WE NEED TO KEEP AS MANY PEOPLE AS WE CAN IN OUR SIDE.

just my humble point of view

First you can't carry in a bank. [understood]

Next you can't carry AROUND a bank. [we are here ,now,today]

Then you can't carry on the same block as a bank.[next year, or in 5 years]

There is a bank on every block.

There two issues here - whether OC is a good defensive strategy versus it's deterent value, and whether OC is politically wise.  We're mixing up the two.  

(1) I don't believe OC is more tactical.  It does deter crime.  If given the option and I was only worried about myself, I would probably CCW.  I wear a 5.11 vest a lot.  Quite honestly (as pointed out above) - we could argue this all day and will never find "the" answer.  I'm concerned about anyone who says one option is always bad - you're not being open minded.  OC reduces the likelihood that you'll ever have a problem, but puts you at a small disadvantage if a situation does occur.  

(2) OC gets people used to a law abiding citizen carrying a firearm.  I think this helps us politically in the long run.  In my area of town I can promise you that I've made a difference in people's opinions.  I can't count the number of kids (and adults) I've had talk to me.  I vividly remember (30 years later) two instances when I was a kid and I saw someone carrying a firearm.  I always remember the realization - "You mean people can just walk around with guns?  Who else might have one?  Wow....."  

What do you people think is going to happen if we never use this Right?  I can promise you we'll lose it.  I'm really baffled with those of you who say that if we use it that it will be taken away.  If using a Right causes us to lose it, how did we ever have it in the first place?  I'd love to hear another example of how this occurs (only go 45 MPH because if we go 55 MPH then they'll reduce the speed limit?).  Giving your lunch money to a bully never works in the long run - it just delays the inevitable.  How is never using this Right possibly going to help us?  

I guess overall I'm disappointed with a lot of what I hear here (not just this discussion) - don't talk about your firearms, always keep them hidden, don't do anything that might put you at any disadvantage.  How is that helping anyone but you?  What is that doing for society or your children's future?  It's easy to talk about guns in a gunshop, on a range or a firearms website.  Woo-de-doo.  You've done nothing to make this world a better place or done anything to preserve our Countries or our children's future.  

Lastly, I ask again - many of you defended the LEO's who cuffed, fingerprinted, harrassed, threatened and pointed a gun at this individual.  Can you please tell me how you sleep at night?  Maybe you can write off the first time to education and the way the issue was phoned in to the police.  How do you explain day 2, and the threat to do it again every day?  This gentlemen is obeying the law!!  Change the example to anything you like, and please explain to me how you justify pointing a loaded gun at someone, cuffing them, taking fingerprints and threatening someone for obeying the law.  

Quoted: well Blackfox let me tell you somethings about my self: my name is Luis, former Marine and proud owner of many firearms. I love shooting and competing in IPSC, IDPA and three gun competitions. I don't have any specific intentions, but i will be dam if some dumb ass gives somebody an excuse to take my right to defend my self by carrying a concealed hand gun away.

Hmm.  A "former" Marine?  Didn't know there was such a thing.  

Own lots of guns and like to shoot a lot?  Great!  I love Porsches, bright shiney fire engines, and Nigerian scammers with bunnies on their heads.  Woo hoo!!  Enjoying a thing and being excited about owning/using it does not equal being passionate about or understanding a Right.  I'm not belittling any of what you said.  It's just irrelevant.  

I'm sorry if anyone who makes any waves that might inconvenience you is a "dumb ass."   Do you believe the 2nd is a God-given right, or just a temporary loophole that you enjoy?  I don't understand how you feel this is such an arbitrary thing that can be taken at any time.   You seem worried about your ability to carry a firearm *poof* disappearing, but I have yet to see a single reference to anything proactive you're willing to do about it (besides hide it).  What are YOU doing to help?  Can you at least appreciate the spirit of someone who's willing to risk harassment and threats to make a point?  

Quoted: there was no need to have this situation, even if you do have a concealed carry permit you know that you cant do it in a bank(which i don't necessarily agree with)

Wrong - you can OC and CCW in a bank any time you like.  I do it every week (open carry).  How do you work in a gun shop and not know that?  

Quoted: I don't worry that much about what people think about me, but i am very aware to the fact that not every body loves or even likes guns and concealed carry as much as i do. for that reason I will carry my self as best as i can and try to be a good example of a responsible gun owner not a person attracting unwanted attention, always hoping that i will never have to draw my gun out of its holster.

How is hiding your firearms because somebody might not like them helping anyone?  How is that "responsible?"  If people didn't like leather shoes or jackets, would you stop wearing them too?  How about cars that get less than 50 MPG?  It seems funny to say you don't care what other people think, and then immediately state that your actions are driven by what other people like or don't like.  You sound a lot like those people who say "I believe in the second amendment, but....."  

Quoted: I think that any one not in condition white would have felt uncomfortable if encountering an individual outside a bank with a gun in the open, at least I would. but that is my humble opinion, and no Blackfox you will never hear me speak against firearms, I like them to much and that is one reason why i didn't go back to NYC(besides Hillary)

So you move to condition white around a person OC'ing?  You need to get out more.  You  have to realize gobs of people are CCW'ing for every person OC'ing you see.  You only get nervous around the guy who's open about it, or do you walk around in condition white for everyone that has a jacket, fannie pack, vest, purse, backpack, etc., etc.?  Was it the bank that makes you nervous?  What about a WalMart, movie theater, pizza place or train station?  Your issue doesn't seem to be with the situation as much as a fear of other people with guns.  This is supported by the fact that you're only afraid of the guns you can see.  I hear you say you "like" firearms.  I'm sure you enjoy the ability to carry your own to take care of you.  I'm just not convinced you like other people being able to.  

Quoted: The cops were wrong, but he shouldn't have been there. if only a little bit of common sense would have been used, If only!!!! it is legal but not smart to open carry around a bank, like it has been said before. a person being drag out of a car and handcuff for speeding is totally different than responding to a call of an armed individual in front of a bank. if you don't think so go out and spend a couple of nights with your local LEO on a ride along, you might change your mind.

Funny how you've made it his fault the LEO's were wrong.  He's to blame for them threatening to harrass him every day he obeyed the law .  This ranks right up there with "he shouldn't have raped her, but she shouldn't have been dressed like that...."  

You're right - motor vehicle violations are different than a firearm issue.  There is no Constititionally-guaranteed Right to operate a motor vehicle!!  It's a privilege, not a Right, and you are subject to more severe actions when operating a motor vehicle on a public road.  

As for ride alongs somehow enlightening me  - you know what they say when you assume things about people you don't know....

Quoted: you will hear me speak against people talking on the phone and driving. some of this people cant walk and chew gum at the same time, but they choose to put other people in danger so they can use a phone?  once again just my opinion

Yep - and another example of your willingness to impose your opinions on other people for your convenience.  Yep - why wait for someone to do something silly while driving and talking on the phone (cross the line, swerve in traffic, etc.) and cite them for that?  Let's preempt it and ban it for your safety and convenience, because we all know there can't be people responsible enough to drive and talk at the same time.  We all know we need to think for "the people" because they're not very bright.  Heck, let's just start passing more laws to keep people from doing things that might harm themselves or others.  We all know that concept of personal responsibility is a silly notion.  Just look - the rest of the world has already done away with it!!

Quoted: I tryed open carry a couple of times, I quickly decided to do away with it, I was uncomfortable with all the stares I was getting the 2 times I OC'ed.

Good - then you realize what a hassle it can be to OC?  I don't OC as much as I used to, because sometimes I'd just rather go about my business than worry about it.  I still appreciate those who consistently do, and still try to OC on occasion.  These 100 degree days certainly do help

Quoted: I would have felt lucky that the officer in question ONLY drew his weapon on me.

You're grateful if you don't get shot for minding your business while obeying the law and doing nothing to demonstrate you mean any harm to yourself or others??  I know your probably meant you were kidding.  I still find it completely unacceptable to have a weapon drawn and pointed in a situation that didn't involve someone who had proven to be a threat.  

This was an LEO with an agenda abusing his position of authority.  The liability he just exposed the City of Norfolk to and the unnecesary threat to this man's life was inexcusable.  

I'm still dying to hear someone defend the guys on the 2nd day....

Quoted: There two issues here - whether OC is a good defensive strategy versus it's deterent value, and whether OC is politically wise.  We're mixing up the two.   (1) I don't believe OC is more tactical.  It does deter crime.  If given the option and I was only worried about myself, I would probably CCW.  I wear a 5.11 vest a lot.  Quite honestly (as pointed out above) - we could argue this all day and will never find "the" answer.  I'm concerned about anyone who says one option is always bad - you're not being open minded.  OC reduces the likelihood that you'll ever have a problem, but puts you at a small disadvantage if a situation does occur.   (2) OC gets people used to a law abiding citizen carrying a firearm.  I think this helps us politically in the long run.  In my area of town I can promise you that I've made a difference in people's opinions.  I can't count the number of kids (and adults) I've had talk to me.  I vividly remember (30 years later) two instances when I was a kid and I saw someone carrying a firearm.  I always remember the realization - "You mean people can just walk around with guns?  Who else might have one?  Wow....."   What do you people think is going to happen if we never use this Right?  I can promise you we'll lose it.  I'm really baffled with those of you who say that if we use it that it will be taken away.  If using a Right causes us to lose it, how did we ever have it in the first place?  I'd love to hear another example of how this occurs (only go 45 MPH because if we go 55 MPH then they'll reduce the speed limit?).  Giving your lunch money to a bully never works in the long run - it just delays the inevitable.  How is never using this Right possibly going to help us?   I guess overall I'm disappointed with a lot of what I hear here (not just this discussion) - don't talk about your firearms, always keep them hidden, don't do anything that might put you at any disadvantage.  How is that helping anyone but you?  What is that doing for society or your children's future?  It's easy to talk about guns in a gunshop, on a range or a firearms website.  Woo-de-doo.  You've done nothing to make this world a better place or done anything to preserve our Countries or our children's future.   Lastly, I ask again - many of you defended the LEO's who cuffed, fingerprinted, harrassed, threatened and pointed a gun at this individual.  Can you please tell me how you sleep at night?  Maybe you can write off the first time to education and the way the issue was phoned in to the police.  How do you explain day 2, and the threat to do it again every day?  This gentlemen is obeying the law!!  Change the example to anything you like, and please explain to me how you justify pointing a loaded gun at someone, cuffing them, taking fingerprints and threatening someone for obeying the law.

Ok, I have desperately been trying to avoid responding in this thread, but I can't avoid the urge any longer.

I fully support what the LEO's did and don't believe that they did anything wrong.  There is an easy justification for what they did: officer safety.  They had a report of a man with a gun.  We don't know the exact content of the call other than the statement from the person who said he overheard that it involved someone carrying openly.  The officers probably had no way of knowing what his intentions were when they first arrived at the scene or what the security guard told them.  For all we know, the security guard called the police and said that an armed man was about to rob the bank.

The police had no idea that the person was obeying the law at the time they responded.  It wasn't until after they had arrived at the scene that they were able to get the details.  They were responding to a 911 call about an armed man and took the appropriate precautions to ensure their safety until they figured out what was going on.  They knew that a weapon was involved and did not know the person's intentions.  After they determined that the person was obeying the law, he was free to go.

There is nothing wrong with searching him when they did as well.  The police can perform a quick search when performing an investigatory stop to make sure that there are no dangers to their safety.  Same thing with the handcuffs, it was for their safety.  There is no indication that they ever removed this man's gun so he was armed the entire encounter (at least for the first one).  Once they determined that there was no wrongdoing, they let him go.  

I fail to see these horrible threats that the police officers made to this individual.  I see the police asking him whether he knows it is illegal for him to carry the weapon concealed and he could be arrested for that.  I don't see this as a threat, the officer is merely stating what the law is.  

In the second encounter, what threats are there?  I see where they tell him to stay off of that street (which they later recanted when it was pointed out that it was a public street).  They then informed him that he couldn't touch the bank building or he could be arrested.  Nothing wrong with that.  It is a private building and the occupants of the building did not wish for him to interfere or infringe upon their private property.  It is just plain old trespassing.  At that point, after the officers informed him that he was no longer to infringe upon the private property, he was informed of the consequences.  This is not a threat either, in my mind.  It is a factual statement about the consequences of trespassing after being warned not to mess with the property.

There is the statement that if they get called again, they will go through the same process that I guess could be regarded as a threat.  However, I, once again, see this as a simple statement of the truth and that the police officer is saying that if they get called again, they will perform the same sort of investigation.  Unless the police are free to just ignore calls, they would respond to each call.  Is it a threat because they are saying that they will continue to do their jobs?

The only thing I can see that could possibly be a threat is the "standard cop lecture," as he puts it.  However, he leaves out so many details that it is impossible to tell whether or not this is a threat, but from what he says, it does not sound like it would be considered a threat.  They do say that he is "asking for trouble," but do not appear to elaborate on this.  Is that generalized statement enough to constitute a threat?  I sure hope not.

I don't know what the FYI card since I have never heard of it.  However based upon the next couple of sentences, it could be a formal notice that he was not allowed back on the property.  Maybe it is departmental procedure to use an individual's fingerprint to show receipt of this notice (so that way it can be verified at a later point since signatures can be forged).  

This is not harrasment in my book, unless you consider it harrasment for the police to investigate any call that they receive.  The police are not just randomly stopping this guy and going through this.  They are responding to a specific citizen complaint against this individual and are investigating it.  I don't see how the fact that they are doing their job (and doing so in a permissible manner to ensure their own safety) is harrasment, unless they aren't allowed to ever investigate calls that they receive.  The identification and everything was part of the investigation.

Also, I don't think that the fact that it happened twice really means that what the officers did the second time was unnecessary.  One, the guy doesn't say whether or not it is even the same officers that responded the second time.  Second, with as many people as police officers see in a day, even if the same two police officers were there, is it reasonable to expect them to remember a person whom they had met 4 days before for a brief period of time.  The only way that you can even say that the police were not justified in their actions was if you were assuming that the same two officers were there, remembered this individual, and then remembered that he was not doing anything illegal on the first day and then saying that based upon this past knowledge, they should have just assumed that everything was legal this time.  There was nothing wrong with the second stop and verifying that everything was still legal (or if it was new officers, verifying that it was legal to begin with).  Also, when I am saying "legal" I don't mean verifying whether or not open carry is legal.  I don't see anything suggesting that the officers tried to tell him that open carry was illegal.  They did ask why he was doing it, but they didn't say that it was illegal.  I mean that there is nothing wrong with making sure that he does not have an outstanding warrants, is not prohibited from owning or possessing a gun, etc.

The biggest mistake the officers made in either stop, in my opinion, was the comment at the very end about the number of rounds in a magazine.  It was a stupid comment.

We also don't know the content of the second dispatch call so we don't know whether there was a difference in the way that the officers were given the information.

I don't think that a civil suit is warranted here.  I don't think that the officers should be fired.  I don't even think that the officers necessarily deserve a written reprimand based upon that one stupid comment.  As long as officers are allowed to take steps to ensure their safety (the call would be helpful here), they did not do anything wrong.  

To answer your question, I sleep very well at night.  I don't have a problem with the police ensuring their own safety and staying within the law when conducting an investigatory stop.

As far as the rights issue goes, I think that making an ass out of yourself while open carrying a gun is going to get the right taken away.  You argue that if something can be taken away from you, then it is not a right to begin with.  And in a completely logical situation, that is the case.  However, the world and the United States is not completely logical.  It has already been proven that the states and the federal government do have some ability to impact rights when it comes to gun laws.  Therefore, they would have the ability to completely take away open carry, just as they have the ability to change concealed carry laws.  Now you may disagree with these laws, but it doesn't change the reality that these laws do exist.  In reality, it is foolish to think that the right will not be taken away from you, if enough people in the general public feel threatened about these people carrying guns openly and get the law changed.  Once the law is changed, the ability to exercise the right is gone.  You can continue to open carry if you wish, but at that point you will be breaking the law and while you can use that to challenge the constitutionality of the law, it would still be at a potentially great cost and possible loss of freedom to you.  How is making the general public feel threatened by individuals openly carrying and motivating them to change the laws to make this illegal going to help?

I think that there is more to be gained by actions such as Luis where a gun owner does everything in their power to try to portray themselves as being reasonable gun owners is very good.  Like it or not, guns (and some gun owners) are portrayed in a negative light.  Conducting yourself in a reasonable manner is a very strong counterbalance to those negative portrayls.  It can show the average person that not all gun owners are evil, that in fact the majority of gunowners are responsible individuals just like themselves and nothing to be worried about.  Things like that can help possibly cause these people to shed their preconceived notions about guns and cause them to examine the issue with an open mind.

I'm done for now.  Go ahead and flame away or whatever you want.  

Quoted: Own lots of guns and like to shoot a lot?  Great!  I love Porsches, bright shiney fire engines, and Nigerian scammers with bunnies on their heads.  Woo hoo!!  Enjoying a thing and being excited about owning/using it does not equal being passionate about or understanding a Right.  I'm not belittling any of what you said.  It's just irrelevant.   I'm sorry if anyone who makes any waves that might inconvenience you is a "dumb ass."   Do you believe the 2nd is a God-given right, or just a temporary loophole that you enjoy?  I don't understand how you feel this is such an arbitrary thing that can be taken at any time.   You seem worried about your ability to carry a firearm *poof* disappearing, but I have yet to see a single reference to anything proactive you're willing to do about it (besides hide it).  What are YOU doing to help?  Can you at least appreciate the spirit of someone who's willing to risk harassment and threats to make a point?

As I said in my previous post, I think that being a responsible gun owner is helping things.  People largely already have a negative opinion about guns.  Showing that there are responsible gun owners can potentially cause them to challenge some of their preconceived notions and actually approach the issue with an open mind.  

Also, as I said before, the way that the laws and the courts stand at the moment, it is possible for the ability to carry a firearm to disappear.

I don't see the benefit in some of these individuals trying to shove their rights down the throats of the general public and then just repeatedly saying that it is legal for them to do so helps.  To me, this seems more likely to mobilize the public against their cause and cause them to get things changed, and in this current enviroment, it is possible for them to change it.

How is hiding your firearms because somebody might not like them helping anyone?  How is that "responsible?"  If people didn't like leather shoes or jackets, would you stop wearing them too?  How about cars that get less than 50 MPG?  It seems funny to say you don't care what other people think, and then immediately state that your actions are driven by what other people like or don't like.  You sound a lot like those people who say "I believe in the second amendment, but....."

How is making other people feel uncomfortable or possibly scared helping the cause?  I do understand that open carry can be a chance to educate people.  However, there is an equal or greater chance that the public in general will feel threatened by it.  There is nothing wrong with exercising a right while still considering the feelings of others.

So you move to condition white around a person OC'ing?  You need to get out more.  You  have to realize gobs of people are CCW'ing for every person OC'ing you see.  You only get nervous around the guy who's open about it, or do you walk around in condition white for everyone that has a jacket, fannie pack, vest, purse, backpack, etc., etc.?  Was it the bank that makes you nervous?  What about a WalMart, movie theater, pizza place or train station?  Your issue doesn't seem to be with the situation as much as a fear of other people with guns.  This is supported by the fact that you're only afraid of the guns you can see.  I hear you say you "like" firearms.  I'm sure you enjoy the ability to carry your own to take care of you.  I'm just not convinced you like other people being able to.

Where in the hell does he say that he does not like other people carrying guns?  All he says is that he is more cautious when he is around other people who are open carrying because there is a visible, potential threat at that point.  How is it unreasonable to be more cautious when there is someone with a visible weapon nearby?  How does this show a fear of other people having guns?  If you do not believe that people with weapons are a threat, why even bother carrying a weapon?  I just don't think that being more cautious around other people with weapons (and thus looking out for your own well-being) equates to not wanting other people to have guns.  IMHO, this just amounts to the recognition of a potential threat where you do not know the persons intent, unless you trust everyone completely.



I think that I have already addressed most of the other issues.

I don't think that the LEO's really did anything wrong with the investigation of this call.  They were doing their job.  They stayed within the law.  Once they determined that he was not doing anything illegal, they let him go.  I do not think that the police doing their job is harrasment.  Again, this is not a situation where they just stopped some guy on the street.  They were responding to a citizen complaint.

Quoted: Not to change the subject, but I was stopped in Chesapeake for an expired inspection, all else was current.  Gave her the liscense and registration. She comes back, "sir, do you have a weapon in your possesion".....  I pause long and hard while holding still.......  "NO, not today, why do you ask" She says, "It is an officer safety issue,.......  I did not know until I got back to the car with your liscense that you had a permit" NO SHIT SHERLOCK, that is why it is CCW.  So I asked if it was a new city policy to be informed by anyone with a CCW because I knew the state of VA was not a "must inform" state. She said it had nothing to do with that and I should have told her.  I let it go. One must think however, what if I had said yes????  I think it would have went about like the above. CCW and state inspection don't have jack shit to do with one another.  Does she think the illegals that she pulls and do not have a liscense are un armed, oh wait, they probably can't ask an illegal if they have a weapon..... Goes to show you that CCW absolutely should not be on drivers liscense, they are not related.  Many other states have ruled it is uncontitutional for the CCW info to be on your drivers liscense.   Of course if I were carrying and she asked me to get out or something I would have brought at the point when it MAY have mattered. PS, I know open carry is legal but there is no reason on earth I would do that in public.  The only time that I have done in the past is on my property after a hurricane while cleaning up the lawn.  A drop leg tends to tell the neighbors to fuck off.

She did not get the CCW info from your license.  She got it in response to the wanted check she ran on you.  DMV has no idea who has a CCW.

No flames, civprod.  It's been a long time .

Glad to see the lawyer lessons are going well....  

Quoted: There is an easy justification for what they did: officer safety. They had a report of a man with a gun.

How do you reconcile this with one of our own who was arrested for confronting a car thief in his front yard at 2 a.m. with a handgun in his hand?  If memory serves, you and trio were pretty clear he had screwed up and got off easy, and he didn't point it at anyone.  

Please understand - I am not really interested in debating the finer points of the VA code - I believe I understand them.  I have a fundamental issue for a citizen being arrested for something that is apparently expected of an LEO under similar circumstances.  LEOs should not be able to draw and point a loaded weapon at someone who has not demonstrated a viable threat to anyone.  Their safety is no more important than the (last time I checked - presumed innocent) person whose life now rests on 8 lbs of pressure on a trigger.  

I will be arrested (rightfully so) for pointing a loaded gun at someone unless I can demonstrate my life (or the life of an innocent) was in immediate danger.  Why is this standard any different for an LEO?  

I understand "The police had no idea that the person was obeying the law at the time they responded."  I fail to see how that's different than any other time they look someone in the eyes.  Should every citizen be treated as a threat until proven otherwise?  Isn't this a little contrary to the spirit of our Country?  I won't even get started on the "us-versus-them" attitude this fosters....

Quoted: After they determined that the person was obeying the law, he was free to go.

I beg to differ.  A man standing on the street corner with a sidearm in a holster IS obeying the law.  I understand your point, but don't see any reason for their actions - any more than someone holding a sign on a street corner or walking down the sidewalk.  

This is very similar to most other OC "incidents."  If a 911 call is made, the operator could dig just a little deeper.  "Is his firearm in a holster or case?"  "Has he threatened anyone?"  "Has the individual done anything (besides the fact he has a firearm in a holster) that we should be aware of?"  If I was responding to that scene, I would find that information immensely valuable.  

Is your suggestion that any time an LEO encounters an armed individual they drop them at gunpoint, cuff them and run their numbers?  Is it the fact there was a citizen complaint?  What if there is a citizen complaint for a guy walking down the sidewalk (not apparently armed)?  Do they resond the same way?  What in this instance justified drawn and pointed weapons, cuffs, background checks and disarmament?  

Quoted: I fail to see these horrible threats that the police officers made to this individual.

Threats?  I'd call this a threat - 'he advised me that if I came back, they would put me in handcuffs, and run my "papers"again.'  Being dropped down at gunpoint, placed in cuffs, searched and having background checks run in a public place for doing nothing wrong sure seems like a threat to me.  It sounds like lot like "if you don't respect my authority, I'm going to make your life miserable" - particularly since it had already been determined that he was doing NOTHING wrong!!  

Quoted: Unless the police are free to just ignore calls, they would respond to each call. Is it a threat because they are saying that they will continue to do their jobs?

Come on, civprod - you were doing okay until there.  You and I both know there's a big gap between not responding and showing up with weapons drawn.  I deal with LEOs while armed (frequently openly) at least twice a week.  None of them feel obligated to randomly toss me on the ground and slap cuffs on.  

Quoted: I don't see anything suggesting that the officers tried to tell him that open carry was illegal. They did ask why he was doing it, but they didn't say that it was illegal. I mean that there is nothing wrong with making sure that he does not have an outstanding warrants, is not prohibited from owning or possessing a gun, etc.

So, the officers knew OC was legal, they saw the man doing nothing besides OC'ing.  Why the hell did they have to do anything?  What justification do they have for taking him into custody (not Terry stop - full out handcuffs)?  

I admit to being a bit idealistic about these things, and understand "real life" isn't always as clean as it should be.  However, I get worried when we get so bogged down in the details to the point we've lost sight of what is right and wrong.  

I have a huge problem with conflicting standards for LEOs and other citizens.  In one case one can do just about anything to "ensure their safety," while on the other hand one would get arrested for doing anything close to it.  

Quoted: I think that making an ass out of yourself while open carrying a gun is going to get the right taken away.

Again - who said anything about making an ass of yourself?  I hope you're not calling this guy an ass for doing his thing (it's not like he was carrying a sign or yelling at people).  

You're painting some broad strokes of those that OC.  If a professionally-dressed clean cut guy going about his business (not acting twitchy or angry) "makes the general public feel threatened" then the person OC'ing didn't make them feel anything.  Nothing we can do would change their minds.  

Again, I'm confused about how raising an entire generation that's never seen an honest, law abiding person carry a firearm is going to help our cause in 25 years?  I'm confused how a generation of people raised by the idiots to feel threatened by the mere sight of a firearm is going to become an ally.  Are we just giving up and biding our time?  

I hear what you're saying about our laws being subject to the whims of the population.  I think we need to be very concerned about the impression we give.  We have to hold ourselves to a higher standard, and constantly be aware of the impression we give.  

Quoted: Like it or not, guns (and some gun owners) are portrayed in a negative light. Conducting yourself in a reasonable manner is a very strong counterbalance to those negative portrayls.

Uh, because if nobody knows you're carrying a firearm you haven't done anything to improve the impression of gun owners?  By the way, the constant mantra of a "responsible gun owner" is starting to sound a lot like "commone sense gun control" - it doesn't really mean anything, but sounds good and makes the contrary point of view seem "irresponsible."  

Quoted: unless you consider it harrasment for the police to investigate any call that they receive.

civprod - you may have some good points, but this kind of stuff is just plain silly.  Come on, man - you're better than this.  All the soundbites about officer safety, just doing their jobs, responsibile gun owners coupled with the demonization of the other viewpoint (you want them to ignore calls, not do their job, somebody's acting like an ass, horrible threats, etc.) makes you appear disengenuous.  

Quoted: However, there is an equal or greater chance that the public in general will feel threatened by it.

Completely disagreed.  If you feel that's true, then we've already lost and it's just a matter of time.

Quoted: There is nothing wrong with exercising a right while still considering the feelings of others.

Agreed.  Just because you can, doesn't make it a good idea.  

Quoted: Where in the hell does he say that he does not like other people carrying guns?

I may be wrong in my terminology (as there are at least three "color code" systems), but I understand condition white = threat identified.  I thought my explanation (and questions) were pretty logical.  For example - are you threatened by everyone that has firearms, or only those you can see?  I'm pretty sure that someone who feels threatened by anyone else that has a firearm might be classified as "someone who's not happy with others carrying firearms."  Can it be any clearer than that?  

Quoted: I don't think that the LEO's really did anything wrong with the investigation of this call. They were doing their job. They stayed within the law. Once they determined that he was not doing anything illegal, they let him go. I do not think that the police doing their job is harrasment. Again, this is not a situation where they just stopped some guy on the street. They were responding to a citizen complaint.

In summary, "they were doing their job" is another soundbite that means nothing.  If the law allows an LEO to point firearms at people who pose no threat, then the law is F'ed.  It was determined he wasn't doing anything illegal the minute they saw him.  The LEOs (as you pointed out) knew that OC was legal.  Again, "doing their job" sounds good, but does not justify their behavior.  I could say "I'm just being a good parent" while beating the stuff out of my kids on a public highway.  A citizen complaint doesn't and shouldn't have any more weight than the common sense of an officer, and shouldn't permit any more escalation of force than a standard interaction (besides the fact the officer must write a report).  I've spent some time in escalation of force training, and this one was way out of bounds.  

Again, it's my opinion that these officers just didn't like this guy carrying (or anyone?), and were operating with an agenda.  Unfortunately, this is consistent with Norfolk.  You can insert a number of analogies here (people with Irish flags, people with dreds, black guys with white girls, people driving yellow cars), and suddenly dropping at gunpoint, cuffing, checking them to make sure they're legal with no warrants, etc., doesn't sound so kosher.  Why are you so quick to support this against gun owners?