Quoted: go pat go! "Congressionally mandated restrictions on the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court." he is solely talking about limiting the supreme court jurisdiction on social issues... abortion, gay marriage, etc, turning the issues to the states and using constitutional authority to restrict the feds from interferring with state law on those issues. ron paul wrote one of the original bills buchanan supports... and it would do exactly what i just said above.

This is already in the Constitution, the fact that it is ignored is another story:

Article III Section 2 Paragraph 2

In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction.  In all other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court will have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

Quoted: Once again another perfect recruit for Buchanan's 'soft fascism'... It's also ironic that you decry a 'loss of manufacturing ability' and a 'declining intellectual development of current and subsequent generations'... Keeping unskilled manufacturing in the US - let alone trying to BRING IT BACK - would do more damage to 'intellectual advancement' than you could possibly imagine (Which is probably why you haven't figured out that unskilled MFG = BAD on a national scale).... Yeah, let's force companies to keep jobs any 3rd-world idiot can do here in a 1st world country... Let's see how many jobs we can have that can be done by anyone with a 5th grade education... That will be REAL GOOD for economic development...

Hmm... let's see... a fair number of US Citizens are equal in every way to "third world idiots", primarily due to the absolutely STELLAR government school systems

Yes... let's totally depend on other countries for our manufacturing capacity, that way when the political winds change, oh I don't know... someone decides to finally act on Taiwan (just taking a shot in the dark here), we can stand by and let a democracy fall in order to save our consumer driven economy.  But wait!!! Let a democracy fall??? We can't let that happen... hell, we invaded Iraq and Afganistan to intall democracies!!!

Dave, the only fascist around here is you.  More government.  Bigger government.  These are your core values as you present them to us.

Demographics is destiny.

If that is "racist", then so be it.  That word has lost all practical meaning.

height=8

Quoted: height=8 Quoted: height=8 Quoted: It's also ironic that you decry a 'loss of manufacturing ability' and a 'declining intellectual development of current and subsequent generations'... Keeping unskilled manufacturing in the US - let alone trying to BRING IT BACK - would do more damage to 'intellectual advancement' than you could possibly imagine (Which is probably why you haven't figured out that unskilled MFG = BAD on a national scale).... Yeah, let's force companies to keep jobs any 3rd-world idiot can do here in a 1st world country... Let's see how many jobs we can have that can be done by anyone with a 5th grade education... That will be REAL GOOD for economic development... Question for you... How long are we going to remain a 1st world country?   As long as we remain the #1 economic (By GDP) and military (by exerting our will as needed to support our interests) power in the world At the present rate of illegal immigration how long do you think it will be before this country is overwhelmed with people only able to do unskilled labor? Not going to happen. 'Migrant' workers go where the jobs are, and when the jobs are no longer there, they leave We need to keep every job we can in this country, skilled or unskilled?  No, we need to get rid of every single unionized unskilled labor position. Gone, bye-bye, so-long... It will reduce the rate of illegal immigration, it will improve quality of life in the US, and take a HUGE amount of dead union weight out of our economy We need to get Americans back into the mindset that work is a verb, not an adjective.  To many folks now are to proud to do unskilled labor. Too many more sit at home and collect government checks for doing absolutely nothing. Which is a welfare problem, that doesn't mean we should engage in 'indirect welfare' by forcing employers to overpay these slugs for being slugs  This country became what it is/was because we had scores of people who did those unskilled labor jobs.  No, this country USED to be an irrelevant and undeveloped backwater... We used to be, well, like Mexico is today... And when we were like that, we had a low cost of living, an illiterate population, and an economy geared to work in those conditions. The price of first world living is that your 3rd-world jobs must fall off, like baby teeth Somewhere we became a nation to good to keep those traditions alive. They're not 'noble traditions', they're economic activities that are not sustainable in the US economy, with a 1st world cost of living... They should be killed quickly, not kept alive Remember - factory work that was worth $5/day back in 1920 is still, really worth about $5/day... The fact that an American can't live on $5/day now doesn't mean that we should pay him $25/hr to do a $5/day job... It means that the $5/day job should be outsourced to Mexico, where a Mexican will gladly accept $5/day because he'd get $2/day working for a Mexican firm.... That's called FREE MARKET ECONOMICS... It is very efficient & effective in these situations, if the government & unions are kept out of the picture.... I don't understand your statement "Keeping unskilled manufacturing in the US - let alone trying to BRING IT BACK - would do more damage to 'intellectual advancement' than you could possibly imagine"...  Please explain.

So let me get this straight.  You would advocate that we should abandon all low skilled manufacturing here in the U.S. in favor of high tech creativity? (for lack of better wording, sorry, I work nights and it is mid morning now)  Am I understanding your thought process here correctly?  If so, just one question for you.... After we have eliminated or outsourced or whatevered all of our unskilled labor manufacturing, just who is going to make the components; the actual nuts and bolts, for your hi-tech gizmos?  I believe companies like Northrum Grumman, Raytheon, Boeing, etc.  all need those tiny little parts to be made by someone.  Do you think it wise that we no longer produce anything with unskilled labor here in the US?  We are already at the mercy of the ME for our fuel supplies, do you think it would be good to be at the mercy of the rest of the world for our manufacturing supplies also?

Also, just what do we do with all of the soon to be unemployed (in your world) unskilled laborers within our borders.  Ship them to Mexico?  Seems to me that another country is already playing that card.  Look at the mess that created.

As for "(by exerting our will as needed to support our interests) power in the world"... Just how do we continue to do this?  In case you haven't noticed, we had a hard time coming up with enough boots on the ground to cover two fronts in the same geographic region.  You think we have the ability to do the same in another part of the globe right now?  Don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE advocate of a strong military and think that we should go back to the Reagan era of military.  But there are only so many $ to go around now and the US ain't in the best financial shape right now.

Your turn.....

All great countries/empires rise and decline. We have witnessed our rise and now we are falling due to and as a result of a preconceived, engineered take-down of the Western financial system that has performed well and is now at the end of it's run. The chosen few (money controllers) have made their trillions on an inherently defective, scheming, fraudulent banking system. The present system was pushed too far, has outlived it's usefulness and will now implode. A new system will come to the rescue. There is already previews being tossed out but most are in denial, thinking times will improve. They are wrong. Wait and see how fast they pull a solution out of their asses once the dollar approaches the predetermined level. All western countries are being overrun with foreign populations---by design. Lucifer and his unclean demons will arrive soon on the scene to direct events after the global implosion and resulting chaos.

I'd like to read his book.

"with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make."

exactly. its constitutional for congress to limit the courts jurisdiction as i said. the bill that ron paul co sponsored regulates the court's jurisdiction in of abortion. (maybe more, cant remember off hand) this is the same idea and bill that buchanan supports.

You can find similar proclamations of the demise of America by other big mouth windbags throughout our history.

im surprised there is so much disagreement on the premise of buchanan's new book on the survival forum.

it all depends on what you mean by the 'demise' of america. to the anti federalists and true american revolution style patriots, the demise of america came with the signing of the constitution.  to others it was the judiciary act of 1789. to others it was the war to prevent southern secession (ironic considering the states seceded from great britian, you would think more people would be supportive of the idea) to some patriots today the demise happened in 1913 with the progressive era. to others it was the new deal. and so it goes...

it all depends how much of the 'true' america you wish to conserve.

others mileage may vary

Yes it's coming.

Close the border, kick out those who do not belong here legally.
Bring back our manufacturing jobs, end free trade, bolster our military.
Stop this left wing nanny state bullshit, better schools with discipline!!!!!

Quoted: Yes it's coming. Close the border, kick out those who do not belong here legally. Bring back our manufacturing jobs, end free trade, bolster our military. Stop this left wing nanny state bullshit, better schools with discipline!!!!!

+1   Could not have said it better, or more concisely. May I be so bold as to add: F*** with the U.S. of A.? Prepare to be DOA!

We've been far worse folks and been able to come back strong.

Sometimes you just have to hit rock bottom to clean out the bad blood.

A few good points in there, but Buchanan is a kook that other kook's make fun of.  A bit of truth, piled on with a ton of opinion and agenda, doesn't make me run out and sit in sackcloth and ashes.  Those that jump from one extreme to the other never make any kind of traction and accomplish little.  

Y'all, keep pushing for the things you know are right:  smaller gov, term limits, elect better people by getting out and doing something to bring in good people, not just crying about how bad it is.  Politicians suck, all of them, but our system is still better than all the others, don't just give up, keep working on positive change.

Quoted: Quoted: Once again another perfect recruit for Buchanan's 'soft fascism'... It's also ironic that you decry a 'loss of manufacturing ability' and a 'declining intellectual development of current and subsequent generations'... Keeping unskilled manufacturing in the US - let alone trying to BRING IT BACK - would do more damage to 'intellectual advancement' than you could possibly imagine (Which is probably why you haven't figured out that unskilled MFG = BAD on a national scale).... Yeah, let's force companies to keep jobs any 3rd-world idiot can do here in a 1st world country... Let's see how many jobs we can have that can be done by anyone with a 5th grade education... That will be REAL GOOD for economic development... Hmm... let's see... a fair number of US Citizens are equal in every way to "third world idiots", primarily due to the absolutely STELLAR government school systems Yes... let's totally depend on other countries for our manufacturing capacity, that way when the political winds change, oh I don't know... someone decides to finally act on Taiwan (just taking a shot in the dark here), we can stand by and let a democracy fall in order to save our consumer driven economy.  But wait!!! Let a democracy fall??? We can't let that happen... hell, we invaded Iraq and Afganistan to intall democracies!!! Dave, the only fascist around here is you.  More government.  Bigger government.  These are your core values as you present them to us.

1) The only 'more and bigger' government that I advocate is a larger military...

2) So you are going to ignore all the paralells between Pat's solutions and 1930's Germany??? Way to go, you just ducked the question by changing the subject...

3) Nice try with the 'It's the school system's fault'... It's not the fucking school system's fault, it's the students fault for failing to apply themselves, and the parents fault for failing to properly raise their kids... No school system - public or private - can overcome this...

4) Nice non sequitur  on the 'manufacturing and Taiwan' scenario... None of the stuff China makes for us is critical to our national defense... Plenty of the stuff that South Korea and Taiwan make for us *is* rather important (electronics, microchips, LCDs, etc)....

There is absolutely nothing that we get from China that we depend on for military operations...

And don't go with the 'but how will we turn sewing machine factories into rifle plants if we make no sewing machines' crap... That was WWII, back when wars were fought slow enough for production capacity to make a difference...

Modern war is fought with what you have at H-hour... By the time we turned these hypothetical sewing machine factories into rifle plants, the war would already be won or lost...

But go ahead and cling to the past.. Believe it's a good idea to use GOVERNMENT ACTION to keep unprofitable jobs around just to give money to the poor... How socialist of you... And hypocritical - you oppose the govt cutting welfare checks, but you have no problem with them FORCING PRIVATE BUSINESS to do the same thing, via trade protectionism....

Quoted: Quoted: Yes it's coming. Close the border, kick out those who do not belong here legally. Bring back our manufacturing jobs, end free trade, bolster our military. Stop this left wing nanny state bullshit, better schools with discipline!!!!! +1   Could not have said it better, or more concisely. May I be so bold as to add: F*** with the U.S. of A.? Prepare to be DOA!

And socialisim creeps in the back door, under the guise of populisim...

Government action to restrict trade and force companies to manufacture in the US (at a 'living wage' of course, Comrade) is no different from putting the folks who fill those jobs on WELFARE...

Oh, it's a Party all right... A real unskilled laborer's paradise...

Quoted: 1) The only 'more and bigger' government that I advocate is a larger military... So are they going to be the ones running your "Real ID" program? 2) So you are going to ignore all the paralells between Pat's solutions and 1930's Germany??? Way to go, you just ducked the question by changing the subject... Perhaps, but they exist by chance.  Pat's stance on individual liberty is a far cry from der Führer... 3) Nice try with the 'It's the school system's fault'... It's not the fucking school system's fault, it's the students fault for failing to apply themselves, and the parents fault for failing to properly raise their kids... No school system - public or private - can overcome this... In most metropolitan cities here in Texas (and other states) there is near a 50% drop out rate from government high schools.  WTF, OVR???  Yes, it's a lot of the parents blame, but why the hell do school administrations need large buildings with fancy architecture???  I never understood that... 4) Nice non sequitur  on the 'manufacturing and Taiwan' scenario... None of the stuff China makes for us is critical to our national defense... Plenty of the stuff that South Korea and Taiwan make for us *is* rather important (electronics, microchips, LCDs, etc).... There is absolutely nothing that we get from China that we depend on for military operations... And don't go with the 'but how will we turn sewing machine factories into rifle plants if we make no sewing machines' crap... That was WWII, back when wars were fought slow enough for production capacity to make a difference... We most likely do not get military gear from China... unless you count those chic new berets Gen. Shinseki wanted everyone to wear to feel special , but wait!  As soon as word got out they were Hecho en China, they got new ones!  My point here was that everything this country does is in the name of "The Economy" or "The Consumer" which is really "Big Business".  Big Business should thrive, they provide the jobs.  However, when the red curtain goes up, what are they going to do?  Ship the jobs to Afrika???  Because the jobs wound up in China because Mexico was still too expensive. Modern war is fought with what you have at H-hour... By the time we turned these hypothetical sewing machine factories into rifle plants, the war would already be won or lost... But go ahead and cling to the past.. Believe it's a good idea to use GOVERNMENT ACTION to keep unprofitable jobs around just to give money to the poor... How socialist of you... And hypocritical - you oppose the govt cutting welfare checks, but you have no problem with them FORCING PRIVATE BUSINESS to do the same thing, via trade protectionism.... "unprofitable jobs"... unprofitable to whom??  You continue to fail to accept the fact that a large percentage of our citizenry will never have the mental faculties (for all reasons) to step up to the technology age.  These people will need food and shelter.  Now, in the past I have openly admitted my liberal tendancies... so this should be no surprise.  Strictly based on the fact that these folks are natural born United States Citizens, our country OWES them the means to earn enough money for food and shelter, or we should give it to them.  So the question comes down to this... do we write them a check for being idiots, or do we give them a wage to support their trailer house and '78 Valiant?

I hear pat will be on coast to coast tonight, with george noori.

No matter what high tech design you come up with, someone, somewhere has to make all the little parts that comprise that piece of high technology, and all the equipment it takes to assemble those parts as well.

A lot of high technology is assembling existing items together in a way that hasn't been done before.

Can't build a sandbox if you can't get sand.  Doesn't matter what high tech design of a sand box you come up with.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yes it's coming. Close the border, kick out those who do not belong here legally. Bring back our manufacturing jobs, end free trade, bolster our military. Stop this left wing nanny state bullshit, better schools with discipline!!!!! +1   Could not have said it better, or more concisely. May I be so bold as to add: F*** with the U.S. of A.? Prepare to be DOA! And socialisim creeps in the back door, under the guise of populisim... Government action to restrict trade and force allow  companies to manufacture in the US (at a 'living wage' of course, by reducing taxes and regulations, Comrade) is no different from putting the folks who fill those jobs on WELFARE... Oh, it's a Party all right... A real unskilled laborer's paradise...

No problem with trade, just prefer "Fair Trade" to "Free Trade". BTW, call me "Comrade" again and I'll take you off my Christmas card list!

Ammo is the currency of the future! INVEST NOW!

BTT

Buchanan is on Coast to Coast now. Very informative, especially on the financial situation and the crap that is going on.

He's talking how foriegn investments like this weeks 7 Billion cash infusion into CitiBank allows foreigners to access our most important 'national secrets' of finance and technology ---to our extreme detriment.

Also how we are guaranteeing financial issues all over the world and how none of the political parties seems to recognize what is going on.

He is covering most of the bases, great show.

How we are handing this country over to anyone in the world almost as fast as we can.

Quoted: Quoted: 1) The only 'more and bigger' government that I advocate is a larger military... So are they going to be the ones running your "Real ID" program? The same agencies and staff who run the present ID program. Changing what they put on the Driver's License (or non-driving ID card), and adding security features (fingerprint signature/PIN, for example) to the card does not increase the size of government one bit... It just changes the product that a certain government agency (State DMV/DOT) issues.[/gren] 2) So you are going to ignore all the paralells between Pat's solutions and 1930's Germany??? Way to go, you just ducked the question by changing the subject... Perhaps, but they exist by chance.  Pat's stance on individual liberty is a far cry from der Führer... Hence it's 'soft' fascisim... Pat's all for individual liberty, if you are in his ideal population of individuals... If you're not a lower-middle class manufacturing laborer born in the USA, it's a big 'screw you' from ol 'Pat. The anti-ALL-immigrant (eg including the legal ones) fear-mongering, the general anti-foreigner attitude, the government-dictated (through tariffs) economic policy... Same ideas - just without the genocide or world domination scheme... Further, I wonder what would happen if Pat's 'stance on individual liberty' were to conflict with his hatred of all things foreign/immigrant? I don't know, but I immagine he'd throw liberty under the bus as fast as (if not faster than) Ron Paul chucking the Constitution under the same bus to cast an anti-war vote 3) Nice try with the 'It's the school system's fault'... It's not the fucking school system's fault, it's the students fault for failing to apply themselves, and the parents fault for failing to properly raise their kids... No school system - public or private - can overcome this... In most metropolitan cities here in Texas (and other states) there is near a 50% drop out rate from government high schools.  WTF, OVR???  Yes, it's a lot of the parents blame, but why the hell do school administrations need large buildings with fancy architecture???  I never understood that... And WTF does the building archetecture have to do with weather the school is educating students or not? Yeah, there's wasted money in education... But spending money on buildings is unrelated to the dropout rate... 4) Nice non sequitur  on the 'manufacturing and Taiwan' scenario... None of the stuff China makes for us is critical to our national defense... Plenty of the stuff that South Korea and Taiwan make for us *is* rather important (electronics, microchips, LCDs, etc).... There is absolutely nothing that we get from China that we depend on for military operations... And don't go with the 'but how will we turn sewing machine factories into rifle plants if we make no sewing machines' crap... That was WWII, back when wars were fought slow enough for production capacity to make a difference... We most likely do not get military gear from China... unless you count those chic new berets Gen. Shinseki wanted everyone to wear to feel special , but wait!  As soon as word got out they were Hecho en China, they got new ones! First, we hate the beret with a passion. Everyone below General wants it gone... Second, while I believe there is some law requiring military items to be made by the US or US allies, the Beret is a garrison (non-combat) item that has no bearing on our combat activities. We don't wear them on deployment My point here was that everything this country does is in the name of "The Economy" or "The Consumer" which is really "Big Business".  Big Business should thrive, they provide the jobs.  A very populist-socialist notion. BUSINESS DOES NOT EXIST TO PROVIDE JOBS - unless you're a socialist, that is However, when the red curtain goes up, what are they going to do?  Ship the jobs to Afrika???  Because the jobs wound up in China because Mexico was still too expensive. Africa, India, Bangladesh... There is no shortage of places with developing economies, who are in the 'right stage' of development to engage in unskilled manufacturing Modern war is fought with what you have at H-hour... By the time we turned these hypothetical sewing machine factories into rifle plants, the war would already be won or lost... But go ahead and cling to the past.. Believe it's a good idea to use GOVERNMENT ACTION to keep unprofitable jobs around just to give money to the poor... How socialist of you... And hypocritical - you oppose the govt cutting welfare checks, but you have no problem with them FORCING PRIVATE BUSINESS to do the same thing, via trade protectionism.... "unprofitable jobs"... unprofitable to whom??  To the economy as a whole, because the work being done is not worth what Americans want to be paid to do it.[/green[ You continue to fail to accept the fact that a large percentage of our citizenry will never have the mental faculties (for all reasons) to step up to the technology age. The same was said about farmers moving into the industrial age... 'Sink or swim' is a powerful motivator for self-improvement/survival These people will need food and shelter. Then if they cannot improve themselves, WalMart and McDonalds are usually hiring  Now, in the past I have openly admitted my liberal tendancies... so this should be no surprise.  Strictly based on the fact that these folks are natural born United States Citizens, our country OWES them the means to earn enough money for food and shelter, or we should give it to them.  We don't owe them jack shit except for the freedom to make (or break) their life by their own actions, and a society where laws are enforced equally & crime is punished. So the question comes down to this... do we write them a check for being idiots, or do we give them a wage to support their trailer house and '78 Valiant? Neither - they should be forced to live whatever life they can afford using the skill-set they bring to market

Quoted: They should be forced to live whatever life they can afford using the skill-set they bring to market.

I think we ALL can agree with that.  However, in order to have a legitimate "live free, if you can" policy, I think we need to have an across the board individual tax rate of 15%, and it needs to be CLEARLY DEFINED as to what sources of money may be taxed... not this mess of a tax code we have now.  I'm talking PLAIN ENGLISH.

Then, America may be free to go forth and prosper!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's also ironic that you decry a 'loss of manufacturing ability' and a 'declining intellectual development of current and subsequent generations'... Keeping unskilled manufacturing in the US - let alone trying to BRING IT BACK - would do more damage to 'intellectual advancement' than you could possibly imagine (Which is probably why you haven't figured out that unskilled MFG = BAD on a national scale).... Yeah, let's force companies to keep jobs any 3rd-world idiot can do here in a 1st world country... Let's see how many jobs we can have that can be done by anyone with a 5th grade education... That will be REAL GOOD for economic development... Question for you... How long are we going to remain a 1st world country?   As long as we remain the #1 economic (By GDP) and military (by exerting our will as needed to support our interests) power in the world At the present rate of illegal immigration how long do you think it will be before this country is overwhelmed with people only able to do unskilled labor? Not going to happen. 'Migrant' workers go where the jobs are, and when the jobs are no longer there, they leave We need to keep every job we can in this country, skilled or unskilled?  No, we need to get rid of every single unionized unskilled labor position. Gone, bye-bye, so-long... It will reduce the rate of illegal immigration, it will improve quality of life in the US, and take a HUGE amount of dead union weight out of our economy We need to get Americans back into the mindset that work is a verb, not an adjective.  To many folks now are to proud to do unskilled labor. Too many more sit at home and collect government checks for doing absolutely nothing. Which is a welfare problem, that doesn't mean we should engage in 'indirect welfare' by forcing employers to overpay these slugs for being slugs  This country became what it is/was because we had scores of people who did those unskilled labor jobs.  No, this country USED to be an irrelevant and undeveloped backwater... We used to be, well, like Mexico is today... And when we were like that, we had a low cost of living, an illiterate population, and an economy geared to work in those conditions. The price of first world living is that your 3rd-world jobs must fall off, like baby teeth Somewhere we became a nation to good to keep those traditions alive. They're not 'noble traditions', they're economic activities that are not sustainable in the US economy, with a 1st world cost of living... They should be killed quickly, not kept alive Remember - factory work that was worth $5/day back in 1920 is still, really worth about $5/day... The fact that an American can't live on $5/day now doesn't mean that we should pay him $25/hr to do a $5/day job... It means that the $5/day job should be outsourced to Mexico, where a Mexican will gladly accept $5/day because he'd get $2/day working for a Mexican firm.... That's called FREE MARKET ECONOMICS... It is very efficient & effective in these situations, if the government & unions are kept out of the picture.... I don't understand your statement "Keeping unskilled manufacturing in the US - let alone trying to BRING IT BACK - would do more damage to 'intellectual advancement' than you could possibly imagine"...  Please explain.   So let me get this straight.  You would advocate that we should abandon all low skilled manufacturing here in the U.S. in favor of high tech creativity? (for lack of better wording, sorry, I work nights and it is mid morning now)  Am I understanding your thought process here correctly? Pretty much - we should only be manufacturing things in the USA that take an American 1st-world education to produce, and things that are critical to our national defense (ironically, most things critical to our national defense are also too complex to be reliably produced by unskilled foreign labor)... So fighter jets, tanks & satellites should be made in the USA, rubber dogshit & bedpans should be made in China If so, just one question for you.... After we have eliminated or outsourced or whatevered all of our unskilled labor manufacturing, just who is going to make the components; the actual nuts and bolts, for your hi-tech gizmos?  Most of that stuff is allready made overseas. Electronic components in Korea and Taiwan, for example... Alot of the rest must be made here for QC/economic reasons... I believe companies like Northrum Grumman, Raytheon, Boeing, etc.  all need those tiny little parts to be made by someone.  Do you think it wise that we no longer produce anything with unskilled labor here in the US?  Anything not deemed required for national defense should be encouraged to be made wherever economics dictates. And economics dictates that unskilled labor is a lose-lose game in a developed economy[/green[ We are already at the mercy of the ME for our fuel supplies No, we are at the mercy of Canada, Mexico, Venezuela and Saudi Arabia. Only one of those countries (and not the #1 supplier either) is in the ME, do you think it would be good to be at the mercy of the rest of the world for our manufacturing supplies also? I think that it doesn't help to have foreign countries at your mercy because their economy depends on you continuing to send them manufacturing contracts & buy their products. Far better than to allow the reverse to happen to us (have our economy depend on foreigners continuing to buy shit made here).... Also, just what do we do with all of the soon to be unemployed (in your world) unskilled laborers within our borders.  Ship them to Mexico?  Seems to me that another country is already playing that card.  Look at the mess that created. They would adapt & overcome, or find work in the various unskilled jobs (retail, fast-food, warehouse labor, etc) that must be located in the US because they deal directly with customers. Future generations would not be encouraged to 'just work at the plant' doing the same union job that the parents did.... And things would improve... Further, combining an end to unskilled MFG with an immigration-violation crackdown on employers might open up some meat-packing & farm-labor jobs too, weather the folks in question would do these jobs or not is another story As for "(by exerting our will as needed to support our interests) power in the world"... Just how do we continue to do this?  In case you haven't noticed, we had a hard time coming up with enough boots on the ground to cover two fronts in the same geographic region.  You think we have the ability to do the same in another part of the globe right now?  Don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE advocate of a strong military and think that we should go back to the Reagan era of military.  But there are only so many $ to go around now and the US ain't in the best financial shape right now. By increasing the military to 1988 manpower levels again, of course... As for the financial issues, that will blow over once the credit market adjusts for the present mortgage-fund stupidity... Your turn.....

Quoted: Quoted: They should be forced to live whatever life they can afford using the skill-set they bring to market. I think we ALL can agree with that.  However, in order to have a legitimate "live free, if you can" policy, I think we need to have an across the board individual tax rate of 15%, and it needs to be CLEARLY DEFINED as to what sources of money may be taxed... not this mess of a tax code we have now.  I'm talking PLAIN ENGLISH. Then, America may be free to go forth and prosper!

I would agree with that, although for pragmatic reasons, I'd make the rates 5-10-15, so that everyone gets a tax cut except those presently not paying a dime (rather than raising some people's taxes and cutting others to arrive at a flat median-rate)...

Although I think 'whatever source derived' is very clear on the subject of what sources of money may be taxed (eg ALL OF THEM)...

I agree with you on simplifying the Code...

Re-writing the tax code in plain english would save the IRS huge amounts of money, as it would eliminate 99% of the fraudulent tax-protestor claims about why they should be exempt...

You should be able to do your taxes on a postcard, simply by filling in '(Income Earned - Business Expenses) * tax rate'... No more tax deductions, exemptions, credits... Just calculate income (all money taken in) subtract personal business expenses, and multiply by the tax rate for that income...

Quoted: Dave, the only fascist around here is you.  More government.  Bigger government.  These are your core values as you present them to us.

Don't forget his elitist and eugenicist goals.  Apparently the half of Americans who aren't intelligent enough to graduate high school are nothing more than "useless eaters".

I wonder if Dave_A has a FINAL SOLUTION for society's undesirables ?

I didn't think America had a caste system.  With Dave_A in charge, we finally can.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yes it's coming. Close the border, kick out those who do not belong here legally. Bring back our manufacturing jobs, end free trade, bolster our military. Stop this left wing nanny state bullshit, better schools with discipline!!!!! +1   Could not have said it better, or more concisely. May I be so bold as to add: F*** with the U.S. of A.? Prepare to be DOA! And socialisim creeps in the back door, under the guise of populisim... Government action to restrict trade and force allow  companies to manufacture in the US (at a 'living wage' of course, by reducing taxes and regulations, Comrade) is no different from putting the folks who fill those jobs on WELFARE... Oh, it's a Party all right... A real unskilled laborer's paradise... No problem with trade, just prefer "Fair Trade" to "Free Trade". BTW, call me "Comrade" again and I'll take you off my Christmas card list!

'Fair trade' is a socialist concept....

The market is not the 'fair market' - it's the 'free market' and part of fredom is the fact that SOME things are going to be UNFAIR to some people...

Further, when government restricts trade, they FORCE companies to react in set ways...

While you can claim that government still allows outsourcing under a protectionist regime, this is just semantics...

Protectionist tariffs and subsidies tamper with the free market, and use market forces to essentially require that businesses comply with government-determined economic behaviors... It's indirect - compliance is not literally legislated - but the practical impact is the same as if it were...

It's like someone pointing a gun at you (we will assume for this example that said person cannot miss the shot if he fires) and telling you to stop where you are... You are still capable of running away - but the practical impact of doing so essentially requires you to stop if you want to keep breathing....

Finally, even if 'unfair taxes and regulations' are eliminated, the COST OF LIVING in the US makes unskilled manufacturing an economic dead-ender...

Quoted: Quoted: Dave, the only fascist around here is you.  More government.  Bigger government.  These are your core values as you present them to us. Don't forget his elitist and eugenicist goals.  Apparently the half of Americans who aren't intelligent enough to graduate high school are nothing more than "useless eaters". I wonder if Dave_A has a FINAL SOLUTION for society's undesirables ? I didn't think America had a caste system.  With Dave_A in charge, we finally can.

Funny, the same thing can be said about the anti-ANY-immigration folks... Except in their case it's 'anyone who's not born here, even if they jumped through all the legal hoops to move here'....

And I'd check your stats, because far more than 50% of the US has a high school education... Hell, it's near impossible to join the Army without one, and we're not exactly that demanding when it comes to taking enlisted troops...

It's not a caste system... It's merely taking the existing 'classes' of American society, and providing a further incentive for the lower class to improve themselves (by eliminating a negative force that has lured generations away from the path of advancement by promising an easy & protected union job after HS graduation day.)...

My solution for society's 'undesirables' as you call them, is to allow the free market's forces to put some pressure on them, either to move up in skills, or to move out (of MFG) to an unskilled service job if they are unwilling to improve....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Dave, the only fascist around here is you.  More government.  Bigger government.  These are your core values as you present them to us. Don't forget his elitist and eugenicist goals.  Apparently the half of Americans who aren't intelligent enough to graduate high school are nothing more than "useless eaters". I wonder if Dave_A has a FINAL SOLUTION for society's undesirables ? I didn't think America had a caste system.  With Dave_A in charge, we finally can. And I'd check your stats, because far more than 50% of the US has a high school education... Hell, it's near impossible to join the Army without one, and we're not exactly that demanding when it comes to taking enlisted troops... It's not a caste system... It's merely taking the existing 'classes' of American society, and providing a further incentive for the lower class to improve themselves (by eliminating a negative force that has lured generations away from the path of advancement by promising an easy & protected union job after HS graduation day.)... My solution for society's 'undesirables' as you call them, is to allow the free market's forces to put some pressure on them, either to move up in skills, or to move out (of MFG) to an unskilled service job if they are unwilling to improve....

Correction.  80% of Americans are H.S. graduates

That still leaves 20%.  Figure half of dropouts are working age.  That leaves roughly 30 million Americans too low functioning to work in a first world economy.  However, they are still capable of performing 3rd world jobs.

What do you suggest we do with these low functioning Americans when the only jobs they're capable of performing are exported to China ?

Quoted: Funny, the same thing can be said about the anti-ANY-immigration folks... Except in their case it's 'anyone who's not born here, even if they jumped through all the legal hoops to move here'....

STRAWMAN.

The American people aren't upset about LEGAL aliens and LEGAL IMMIGRATION.  We are upset with the continued ILLEGAL invasion.

Tens of millions of poor, illiterate third world trespassers, not raised in the American culture.  That's the problem.  They bring their crime, corruption and Communism with them.

No thanks.  They don't deserve a place in our fine country.  Personas non grata.

Quoted: Quoted: Funny, the same thing can be said about the anti-ANY-immigration folks... Except in their case it's 'anyone who's not born here, even if they jumped through all the legal hoops to move here'.... STRAWMAN. The American people aren't upset about LEGAL aliens and LEGAL IMMIGRATION.  We are upset with the continued ILLEGAL invasion. Tens of millions of poor, illiterate third world trespassers, not raised in the American culture.  That's the problem.  They bring their crime, corruption and Communism with them. No thanks.  They don't deserve a place in our fine country.  Personas non grata.

As sure as most of us "don't get" lots of Dave's points, he surely does not get this one.

We hate ILLEGAL immigrants.  Not legal ones, vato.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Funny, the same thing can be said about the anti-ANY-immigration folks... Except in their case it's 'anyone who's not born here, even if they jumped through all the legal hoops to move here'.... STRAWMAN. The American people aren't upset about LEGAL aliens and LEGAL IMMIGRATION.  We are upset with the continued ILLEGAL invasion. Tens of millions of poor, illiterate third world trespassers, not raised in the American culture.  That's the problem.  They bring their crime, corruption and Communism with them. No thanks.  They don't deserve a place in our fine country.  Personas non grata. As sure as most of us "don't get" lots of Dave's points, he surely does not get this one. We hate ILLEGAL immigrants.  Not legal ones, vato.

And if that's as far as it goes, I hate criminals too... All of them, regardless of citizenship status...

But there is a faction on this board that has a problem with immigrants of non-European descent period...

A few of them have surfaced in the Buchannan threads decrying the death of 'White America'...

After all, even with zero illegal immigration, most of our LEGAL immigrants would still be coming from south of the border...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Dave, the only fascist around here is you.  More government.  Bigger government.  These are your core values as you present them to us. Don't forget his elitist and eugenicist goals.  Apparently the half of Americans who aren't intelligent enough to graduate high school are nothing more than "useless eaters". I wonder if Dave_A has a FINAL SOLUTION for society's undesirables ? I didn't think America had a caste system.  With Dave_A in charge, we finally can. And I'd check your stats, because far more than 50% of the US has a high school education... Hell, it's near impossible to join the Army without one, and we're not exactly that demanding when it comes to taking enlisted troops... It's not a caste system... It's merely taking the existing 'classes' of American society, and providing a further incentive for the lower class to improve themselves (by eliminating a negative force that has lured generations away from the path of advancement by promising an easy & protected union job after HS graduation day.)... My solution for society's 'undesirables' as you call them, is to allow the free market's forces to put some pressure on them, either to move up in skills, or to move out (of MFG) to an unskilled service job if they are unwilling to improve.... Correction.  80% of Americans are H.S. graduates That still leaves 20%.  Figure half of dropouts are working age.  That leaves roughly 30 million Americans too low functioning to work in a first world economy.  However, they are still capable of performing 3rd world jobs. What do you suggest we do with these low functioning Americans when the only jobs they're capable of performing are exported to China ?

They can flip our burgers, collect our garbage, sweep floors & paint houses, drive trucks, stock the shelves at WalMart, and do all manner of other unskilled labor jobs which can't be outsourced.... And they can make non-unionized market wage for those jobs...

I'd say we've got jobs for them in Iraq, but the fact is by-and-large we don't, unless they get a GED (in uniform, anyway)...

Most unksilled contract labor over here is done by Iraqis, Turks, or folks from a variety of 3rd-world nations stretching from Africa to the far-east....

By doing this, they cease to be a drain on the pocketbooks of the skilled/productive portion of society, who would be indirectly forced to subsidize their lives under a protectionist system....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Dave, the only fascist around here is you.  More government.  Bigger government.  These are your core values as you present them to us. Don't forget his elitist and eugenicist goals.  Apparently the half of Americans who aren't intelligent enough to graduate high school are nothing more than "useless eaters". I wonder if Dave_A has a FINAL SOLUTION for society's undesirables ? I didn't think America had a caste system.  With Dave_A in charge, we finally can. And I'd check your stats, because far more than 50% of the US has a high school education... Hell, it's near impossible to join the Army without one, and we're not exactly that demanding when it comes to taking enlisted troops... It's not a caste system... It's merely taking the existing 'classes' of American society, and providing a further incentive for the lower class to improve themselves (by eliminating a negative force that has lured generations away from the path of advancement by promising an easy & protected union job after HS graduation day.)... My solution for society's 'undesirables' as you call them, is to allow the free market's forces to put some pressure on them, either to move up in skills, or to move out (of MFG) to an unskilled service job if they are unwilling to improve.... Correction.  80% of Americans are H.S. graduates That still leaves 20%.  Figure half of dropouts are working age.  That leaves roughly 30 million Americans too low functioning to work in a first world economy.  However, they are still capable of performing 3rd world jobs. What do you suggest we do with these low functioning Americans when the only jobs they're capable of performing are exported to China ? They can flip our burgers, collect our garbage, sweep floors & paint houses, drive trucks, stock the shelves at WalMart, and do all manner of other unskilled labor jobs which can't be outsourced.... And they can make non-unionized market wage for those jobs... By doing this, they cease to be a drain on the pocketbooks of the skilled/productive portion of society, who would be indirectly forced to subsidize their lives under a protectionist system....

Uh, hate to break it to you Dave, but driving a truck is skilled labor.

Don't belive me?  Well, then you can try my semi any day.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Dave, the only fascist around here is you.  More government.  Bigger government.  These are your core values as you present them to us. Don't forget his elitist and eugenicist goals.  Apparently the half of Americans who aren't intelligent enough to graduate high school are nothing more than "useless eaters". I wonder if Dave_A has a FINAL SOLUTION for society's undesirables ? I didn't think America had a caste system.  With Dave_A in charge, we finally can. And I'd check your stats, because far more than 50% of the US has a high school education... Hell, it's near impossible to join the Army without one, and we're not exactly that demanding when it comes to taking enlisted troops... It's not a caste system... It's merely taking the existing 'classes' of American society, and providing a further incentive for the lower class to improve themselves (by eliminating a negative force that has lured generations away from the path of advancement by promising an easy & protected union job after HS graduation day.)... My solution for society's 'undesirables' as you call them, is to allow the free market's forces to put some pressure on them, either to move up in skills, or to move out (of MFG) to an unskilled service job if they are unwilling to improve.... Correction.  80% of Americans are H.S. graduates That still leaves 20%.  Figure half of dropouts are working age.  That leaves roughly 30 million Americans too low functioning to work in a first world economy.  However, they are still capable of performing 3rd world jobs. What do you suggest we do with these low functioning Americans when the only jobs they're capable of performing are exported to China ? They can flip our burgers, collect our garbage, sweep floors & paint houses, drive trucks, stock the shelves at WalMart, and do all manner of other unskilled labor jobs which can't be outsourced.... And they can make non-unionized market wage for those jobs... By doing this, they cease to be a drain on the pocketbooks of the skilled/productive portion of society, who would be indirectly forced to subsidize their lives under a protectionist system.... Uh, hate to break it to you Dave, but driving a truck is skilled labor. Don't belive me?  Well, then you can try my semi any day.

Driving a SEMI over-the-road is skilled labor for sure (keeping the ass-end in back, retaining control without running out of air for the brakes, keeping the truck running so you actually deliver your goods on time, and keeping the papers in order, etc...   And I'm gonna guess that this is just the beginning)...

It's also a skill that some of these folks I'm talking about COULD learn if they applied themselves...

Driving a box-truck in town isn't.... Anyone with a driver's license can do that.... Of course, not being in the transpo industry, for all I know you might think of a box-truck as nothing more than a big cargo van, and reserve 'truck' for semis...

After all, in the Army, a HMMWV can be a (small, crappy, unreliable) truck....

Quoted: They can flip our burgers, collect our garbage, sweep floors & paint houses, drive trucks, stock the shelves at WalMart, and do all manner of other unskilled labor jobs which can't be outsourced.... And they can make non-unionized market wage for those jobs...

ILLEGAL ALIEN workers do those jobs because the Federal government refuses to enforce immigration, employment, and tax laws.

In hiring and employing illegal aliens, the "cost of doing business" is just too lucrative for Big Business to hire low functioning Americans who can't be exploited.

You forgot to mention the roofing industry and the meatpacking industry, which have been overtaken by illegal alien work crews employed by slave owning illegal employing white managers.

Until your Federal .GOV decides to ENFORCE THE CURRENT IMMIGRATION LAWS, low functioning American citizens will remain floating down shit creek without a paddle or a bilge pump.

Quoted: Quoted: They can flip our burgers, collect our garbage, sweep floors & paint houses, drive trucks, stock the shelves at WalMart, and do all manner of other unskilled labor jobs which can't be outsourced.... And they can make non-unionized market wage for those jobs... ILLEGAL ALIEN workers do those jobs because the Federal government refuses to enforce immigration, employment, and tax laws. In hiring and employing illegal aliens, the "cost of doing business" is just too lucrative for Big Business to hire low functioning Americans who can't be exploited. You forgot to mention the roofing industry and the meatpacking industry, which have been overtaken by illegal alien work crews employed by slave owning illegal employing white managers. Until your Federal .GOV decides to ENFORCE THE CURRENT IMMIGRATION LAWS, low functioning American citizens will remain floating down shit creek without a paddle or a bilge pump.

And you know, of course, that I favor enforcing said laws VERY strictly... To the point of ID Verification and civil forfeiture...

But that is another debate...

P.S. There are still large areas of the country without enough of an illegal alien population to be noticable...

Of course, since you can't tell immigration status by looking, they COULD be illegal aliens from places other than MX, of course...

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yes it's coming. Close the border, kick out those who do not belong here legally. Bring back our manufacturing jobs, end free trade, bolster our military. Stop this left wing nanny state bullshit, better schools with discipline!!!!! +1   Could not have said it better, or more concisely. May I be so bold as to add: F*** with the U.S. of A.? Prepare to be DOA! And socialisim creeps in the back door, under the guise of populisim... Government action to restrict trade and force allow  companies to manufacture in the US (at a 'living wage' of course, by reducing taxes and regulations, Comrade) is no different from putting the folks who fill those jobs on WELFARE... Oh, it's a Party all right... A real unskilled laborer's paradise... No problem with trade, just prefer "Fair Trade" to "Free Trade". BTW, call me "Comrade" again and I'll take you off my Christmas card list! 'Fair trade' is a socialist concept.... The market is not the 'fair market' - it's the 'free market' and part of fredom is the fact that SOME things are going to be UNFAIR to some people... Further, when government restricts trade, they FORCE companies to react in set ways... While you can claim that government still allows outsourcing under a protectionist regime, this is just semantics... Protectionist tariffs and subsidies tamper with the free market, and use market forces to essentially require that businesses comply with government-determined economic behaviors... It's indirect - compliance is not literally legislated - but the practical impact is the same as if it were... It's like someone pointing a gun at you (we will assume for this example that said person cannot miss the shot if he fires) and telling you to stop where you are... You are still capable of running away - but the practical impact of doing so essentially requires you to stop if you want to keep breathing.... Finally, even if 'unfair taxes and regulations' are eliminated, the COST OF LIVING in the US makes unskilled manufacturing an economic dead-ender...

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

Quoted: In hiring and employing illegal aliens, the "cost of doing business" is just too lucrative for Big Business to hire low functioning Americans who can't be exploited. You forgot to mention the roofing industry and the meatpacking industry, which have been overtaken by illegal alien work crews employed by slave owning illegal employing white managers. Until your Federal .GOV decides to ENFORCE THE CURRENT IMMIGRATION LAWS, low functioning American citizens will remain floating down shit creek without a paddle or a bilge pump.

Probably not to popular to say this but I think in most cases these illegle aliens are here because the jobs they do Americans can not do or will not do anymore at least for a reasonable wage. I have a good friend in the construction bussiness , builds houses. he hires out to crews to do certain jobs such as framing, roofing, etc. Now most of these crews have at least some [most?] illegal Aliens...or at least recent immigrants.
Now he used to hire his own men, american workers, and nothing but trouble. Don't show up, show up drunk, lazy, disapear after payday, just don't want to work. These immegrant workers are nothing like this, they are on time, work hard and are glad to have a job and do good work.
As to slave wages.....well  they get paid around $15-20 hour the same as what he paid the Americans and which around here is considered a good wage I think. These workers are in such demand, not because they work cheap but because they WORK, you are not going to get them if you underpay...they will just go to work for sombody that will pay more.
...With out these immigrant workers he told me he wouldn't know what he would do, he honestly doesn't think he could find enough good American workers for about any wage let alone one he could afford.Makes a point that most Anericans that do this type of work and are good at it and don't mind working are in bussiness for thier selves...with thier own crew of mexicans
I also know some people in the landscaping bussiness and they tell me the same thing. One guy points out that these illegals go to all this trouble to get here because they WANT to work so you know they are hard workers. I think they provide a vaualble service.
I do think they should be given ID cards so we can keep track of them and tax them better but talk of building walls [like a wall would stop sombody that went to all that trouble to get here] and shipping them back is just not thinking .....Todd

Quoted: The US Army is breaking? Close our foreign bases and roll home? Yeah, let's let the rest of the planet de-stabilize and aspiring superpowers expand and see how well that works out for us.

it is.  We are training an army to fight an insurgency...we are NOT training them to defeat an enemy...

now how comfortable are you?  I can see this from where I stand, and I train troops for a living.

Quoted: Driving a SEMI over-the-road is skilled labor for sure (keeping the ass-end in back, retaining control without running out of air for the brakes, keeping the truck running so you actually deliver your goods on time, and keeping the papers in order, etc...   And I'm gonna guess that this is just the beginning)... It's also a skill that some of these folks I'm talking about COULD learn if they applied themselves... Driving a box-truck in town isn't.... Anyone with a driver's license can do that.... Of course, not being in the transpo industry, for all I know you might think of a box-truck as nothing more than a big cargo van, and reserve 'truck' for semis... After all, in the Army, a HMMWV can be a (small, crappy, unreliable) truck....

Yeah, got it about right.

Quoted: Well, I'll say this about the "free trade".... <clipped>

Hope you are wrong but  fear you are right. If in fact you are correct, then geo-political forces are at work and the outcome appears inevitable. All the AR15's and all the ammo many have acquired won't change that. Just heard Alex Jones of "End Game" so I have not yet shaken off the paranoia. If such things are true and no effective options exist then...what?

Quoted: Well, I'll say this about the "free trade" issue. As an abstract concept, it sounds real good on paper. In practice, there is no free trade happening anywhere on this globe, and there's not going to be. But there's plenty of "unfair trade" going on, and it is not related to gov't imposed tariffs exclusively. The purpose of "free trade" in the current geopolitical-economic world is to lower the standard of living in the US and bolster up the 3rd world nations until a level of "reasonable parity" is reached, so as to facilitate the global "blending" of all the countries into a one world socio-political-economic system with a world government. Of course, since the US is the major market and also one of the higher standards of living, most of the losses(money to "even things out") will come from us, and flow to the other countries, until we are nearly down at the level of the current 3rd world. This is the goal. This could be called "global socialism" because it, in effect, creates a trade impediment for the US, and favors the lesser developed nations. How? By artificially setting a "free trade' system that allows slave-labor manufacturing costs in other coutries to provide the lowest priced items here in the US, AND in the other countries as well. And it isn't going to be just manufacturing jobs, because the hi-tech and white collar jobs are also now being outsourced too. So, it's basically the same as putting up large tariffs up against the US in all the other countries because the playing fields are not level. This is what they don't want you to see. They claim to be "anti-tariff" and "free trade", yet they use the "unseen tariffs" of disparity between economic levels of these differing countries as a "tariff" that is essentially unseen by the common person. It works well in their deceptions.  Free trade is a farce, and doesn't exist, and is a ploy to expand globalization at the expense of the US by deception. The other countries don't practice it, and we are told we should, even to our detriment. There is a reason that people are "protectionist" in various senses, which is to "protect" the people, gov't concept, and standard of living here in our country. Many people have come to think of "protectionist" as a dirty word, primarily because of media indoctrination. However, they are all for being "protectionist" when it comes to a military.  It's "perfectly fine" to have a socialist-funded socialist-operated military with no limits, for "our protection". But "not so fine" to protect ourselves economically from global predatory capitalism on a slanted playing field. And then they always drag out the tired old "Smoot-Hawley Act" which gets blamed for the depression, when there is no consensus by economists that the Smoot-Hawley Act had that effect, and many economists say it was bad policies by the Fed and the gov't which caused the depression. However, the Smoot-Hawley Act is great cover for those seeking globalist free trade policies. Then with the next breath, they say that it's fine to have no outsourcing of military systems, because we need that for our "protection" and must be kept "in-house". That seems to be completely unaffected by these "boogeymen" of "protectionism". The whole thing is a double-standard.

The problem with the above is simple:

That's not the reason for free trade, and that's not how it's supposed to work..

It's not about bleeding money out of the US or lowering our standard of living - quite the contrary, it's about RAISING our standard of living (for the majority of Americans, at the temporary expense of a few lower-class holdouts)

And it's definately NOT socialist...

The point of free trade is simple:

Free trade allows companies to circumvent government interference in the market and obtain labor at as close to true-market-rate as is possible.

It allows companies to get out of the death-grip of unions and govt regulation, and to find workers who will accept the economic value of the job being done.

It's a CAPITALIST - not socialist ('fair trade' as it's called, was a creation of the recent Democratic Party & the AFL-CIO, to counter 'free trade' with something better-sounding) concept...

The benefit of free trade is that it allows market forces to work to achieve maximum efficiency in production costs, by matching jobs with workers who will accept an economically appropriate wage for the work being done...

Far from bleeding money out of the US and lowering our standard of living, it INCREASES the competitiveness of US firms who utilize foreign contract manufacturing to produce their products, thus (a) keeping prices low and exerting a downward pressure on inflation, and (b) allowing for a better profit margin, due to the elimination of excessive (often union-inflated) labor costs...

Since only 1 to 10 cents on the dollar of most outsourced products actually goes to the contract-manufacturer, US companies who outsource make out quite well, and the profit actually stays in the USA (For example, that $20 Chinese electric drill from WalMart probably cost Black & Decker about $1... $19 went to a US company, $1 went to China)...

So the consumer wins, the US company wins, and so on...

The biggest flaw in TWL's argument is the same as all the other protectionists: He assumes that we are supposed to compete for these jobs with the 3rd world, and thus that we would have to lower our standard of living to compete... The problem with this is that we are NOT supposed to compete - we are supposed to LET THE 3RD WORLD JOBS GO TO THE 3RD WORLD and keep the 1st-world ones here....

The key to this flaw is that TWL and other pro-protectionist posters assume that we need to have a symmetrical economy - namely that we HAVE TO compete with all other countries in all markets (for example, that we have to produce American TVs to compete with Japanese TVs, and American rubber dogshit to compete with Chinese rubber dogshit). This is a dated and incorrect concept, which was popular back before international trade became an economic fact-of-life.

In actuality, attempting to compete in every market by producing every product is extremely inefficient and doomed to failure. Rather than producing American TVs to compete with Japanese TVs, and taxing Japanese TVs to make this possible, the 'free-market' solution is to let Japan make TVs, and buy TVs from Japan... But there are things (like jet fighters) that American firms make, which Japanese firms do not... So we concentrate on our strengths (advanced military, scientific, and medical equipment, for instance) and the Japanese concentrate on theirs (Consumer electronics)... Similarly, the Chinese can make all the rubber dogshit that American pranksters may ever want to buy... Great... But the Chinese can't grow enough food to feed their people... We have extra food leftover to sell...

Ain't capitalisim grand?

Does this re-structure the economies of nations? Hell yeah it does... But it does so in a positive & natural way - jobs that require the skills of your average 3rd world citizen (MFG rubber dog poo-poo) go to 3rd world nations (China)... Jobs that require the skills of a 1st world citizen (MFG stealth fighter planes, large-scale commercial food production (vis-a-vis ADM/ConAgra/etc), and such) stay in first world nations...

Because the jobs move around, and actually COMPLETELY LEAVE economies where they are not economically viable, all economies become more efficient, and the standard of living rises everywhere...

The second flaw is the contention that unskilled manufacturing is somehow the 'backbone' of an economy, and that eliminating it 'hollows out' the economy and somehow eliminates all disposable income, resulting in a lower standard of living. On the contrary, unskilled manufacturing is economic dead weight in a first-world/post-industrial society, due to the fact that it's economic value is far lower than the lowest wage that a first-world worker will accept. However, in a 3rd-world country, unskilled manufacturing is a very profitable activity, while subsistence farming (generally the prior economic activity) is dead weight. So we swap - first-world commercial agriculture (which is far more productive per acre than 3rd-world family/subsistance farming) feeds the 3rd world's population, while the 3rd world produces our disposable consumer goods at appropriate labor rates... This is just one example (commercial farming vs unskilled MFG), and there are many other sectors where our skilled labor produces products that the 3rd-world needs but cannot produce due to a lack of skill, and the 3rd world produces products that our advancement has made non-feasible to produce in our 1st world economy....

To sum it up:

Labor should be distributed by economic forces - eg if a job has a skill set that every human on planet earth should do, it's worth whatever wage is the lowest that anyone in any country would accept for it... Now, if a job is more sophisticated, and requires a 1st world (college educated) skill set.... Then it should be worth whatever wage 1st world employees will take for it... Since folks living in 1st world countries would be INSANE to accept 3rd world wages, jobs with 3rd world skill sets SHOULD be allowed to move to the 3rd world, where they can be done for the most economically efficient wage By eliminating these 3rd world jobs & the culture of dependancy that is created when government protects them, the standard of living in the 1st world country is IMPROVED, not LOWERED...

Now, let's take an ECONOMIC look at protectionisim:

Protectionism artificially inflates the price of goods, out of a desire to protect an economic sector from foreign competition.

This has the following NEGATIVE impacts:

1) Jobs that cannot survive on the free market are 'protected' by government action, promoting dependency on government and stagnating an entire population segment's economic advancement by removing the sink-or-swim pressure for self improvement....

2) Companies are able to produce an inferior product and sell it at a greater price than would be possible under the free market, because their competitors are kept out of the market (or at the least are effectively given a 'price floor' by the impact of protectionist measures)...

3) Companies are required to pay workers MORE than the job they do is worth, because said companies are denied access to identically skilled workers in foreign countries, and forced (indirectly) to hire domestic workers at inflated wages compared to the free-market value of the work being done....

Now, if you are a SOCIALIST, then (3) is your end-goal, you WANT companies to be forced to pay high wages, because you see the purpose of business being to provide a 'living wage' to workers.

A CAPITALIST would look at (3) and say 'that job sholdn't be in this economy, because workers in this economy can't survive on the wage said job is worth'...

In the end, it's not about some grand conspiracy to create 'OWG'/'NWO'/'NAU'/whatever-flavor-the-BS-is-this-week...

It's about capitalisim (Free trade) vs socialisim (FairWelfare Trade)!

It's about companies being able to pay what a job is worth, vs being forced by government (indirectly through taxes) to provide non-competitive workers with the means to earn a living...

Real simple...

But you can keep the conspiracy theory if it makes you feel better....

P.S. The military argument is a big-time strawman...

Economic activity is most efficient when the laws of economics - without hindrance from socialist politicians trying to 'protect' failing industries and unprofitable jobs - dictate where, when and for how much a product is produced... 'Protecting' economic activities WEAKENS them.

Military forces are most efficient when maintained on a standing/professional basis, and they require equipment that will be available even if the whole world goes to war with you... They are a special case, where economics is not the most important issue - combat power is...

But in non-military situations, economics and economic efficiency reign supreme.

Quoted: Well Dave, it surely looks like you are going to get your way, considering the way the politicians have been running things, and how the candidates are. I certainly hope you are correct. If you are wrong, the country is finished. The stakes are high. America achieved all its finest hours, and became the greatest nation on Earth with the previous policies in place. You're out on a limb, with a global theory. I hope to God you're not wrong. But I think you are.

America ACHIEVED it's current position under the old rules... That's true...

But that was an earlier & more privative time... Economic activity was mostly domestic, and required resources largely contained within our own borders (up until the 1920s, that would be iron, coal, wood & stone/brick)....

What worked for then-3rd-world (in today's terms) America WILL NOT WORK to keep 1st World America afloat...

P.S. The cycle will repeat itself in China and India eventually too - when they reach the place where WE ARE NOW, they will see their unskilled manufacturing jobs migrate to less developed nations, in the name of economics (unless they are still highly socialist at the time, in which case they may opt for tariffs or nationalization).....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well Dave, it surely looks like you are going to get your way, considering the way the politicians have been running things, and how the candidates are. I certainly hope you are correct. If you are wrong, the country is finished. The stakes are high. America achieved all its finest hours, and became the greatest nation on Earth with the previous policies in place. You're out on a limb, with a global theory. I hope to God you're not wrong. But I think you are. America ACHIEVED it's current position under the old rules... That's true... But that was an earlier & more privative time... Economic activity was mostly domestic, and required resources largely contained within our own borders (up until the 1920s, that would be iron, coal, wood & stone/brick).... What worked for then-3rd-world (in today's terms) America WILL NOT WORK to keep 1st World America afloat... P.S. The cycle will repeat itself in China and India eventually too - when they reach the place where WE ARE NOW, they will see their unskilled manufacturing jobs migrate to less developed nations, in the name of economics (unless they are still highly socialist at the time, in which case they may opt for tariffs or nationalization)..... You do realize that this is the same argument that the Democrats use. "This is a new world now, so we need to change America to suit this new world with new progressive policies". The founding documents are no longer suitable for our great new ideas. I find this to be a very dangerous line of thinking.

The difference is that the policies I am advocating do not REQUIRE changes to the Constitution, or judicial activisim....

They are a change in (or at this point, the completion of a change in) national policy...

While the Constitution and what it represents is sacred... The rest of 'the way we were on the day of ratification' has become obsolete... Some things, like the militia-based-army, became obsolete before others, like the gold standard... And some things like trade protection came up in between...

Oh, BTW, one of the 'issues' that was involved in the run-up to the American revolution was the UK's use of protectionist legislation (at the time, they mandated that English ships carry goods to and from certain ports, and similar measures...) ....

Quoted: To my way of thinking, all those examples you listed are excellent examples of mistakes. "Finalizing" a bad policy is not my idea of what we should be doing.

Although it's a bit of a thread jack...

1) The militia based army's cowardice & ineptitude almost got us re-conquered by Britain in the war of 1812... It was a disastrous failure...

2) The gold standard would have sunk us by now if we'd kept it (which is why NO MAJOR POWER did... We'd be bemoaning deflation and governmental currency devaluations instead of inflation, as we struggled to deal with the problems caused by a growing population & economy fighting over a fixed money supply limited by the amount of gold the US had on hand....