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Posted: 6/26/2015 1:15:07 PM EDT
I am currently a mediocre shooter. At my best, when I was shooting NRA high power, I got roughly 1.5 MOA from the bench with both a stock Colt A2 and a White Oak NRA high power rifle. Granted, I was using irons for both rifles, but from the bench I never saw any quantifiable difference in performance. I was using "budget" match ammo, such as 75 grain prvi partizan and 75 grain Hornady steel match.
I guess my question is for the mediocre shooters among you using budget match ammo and nice scopes; do you see a major difference between match barrels and milspec? The maximum range I would be shooting such a rifle would be 600 yards. |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 6/26/2015 1:21:00 PM EDT
[#1]
Originally Posted By Couch-Commando:
I am currently a mediocre shooter. At my best, when I was shooting NRA high power, I got roughly 1.5 MOA from the bench with both a stock Colt A2 and a White Oak NRA high power rifle. Granted, I was using irons for both rifles, but from the bench I never saw any quantifiable difference in performance. I was using "budget" match ammo, such as 75 grain prvi partizan and 75 grain Hornady steel match. I guess my question is for the mediocre shooters among you using budget match ammo and nice scopes; do you see a major difference between match barrels and milspec? The maximum range I would be shooting such a rifle would be 600 yards. Personally, I do not see a quantifiable difference when shooting them. I can reliably ring steel at 600 with a BCM BFH 16" bbl. 600 is about as far as I go. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 1:46:16 PM EDT
[#2]
Chrome lining amplifies defects in the barrel, so it's theoretically less accurate. Practically? You'd gain more benefit switching to bolt action so you could seat bullets to where they just kiss the lands when chambered.
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Posted: 6/26/2015 3:04:38 PM EDT
[#3]
I'd go with match stainless for those purposes
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TX, USA
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Posted: 6/28/2015 6:32:11 PM EDT
[#4]
Absolutely go match stainless. There is a huge difference between my match stainless 18" shooting it's preferred loads and my 'normal' 2moa rifles at 500y.
With one rifle I'm getting hits every time if I do my part, and misses are usually due to shifting wind (and misses with that rifle give good consistent information on the wind downrange). With the 2moa rifles, misses are common at long range and its a lot harder to figure out if it was the wind or just a bad luck shot from the barrel. |
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Posted: 6/29/2015 8:59:48 AM EDT
[#5]
Interesting. I'm looking at getting some type of White Oak barrel if I go with a new barrel. I'm curious what kind of accuracy you folks get with 75 grain factory ammo (preferably steel match hornady or prvi partizan) when using a higher power scope.
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Posted: 7/4/2015 9:58:10 AM EDT
[#6]
Why not go match chrome-lined?
Fulton sells Criterion match-grade barrels with a proprietary chrome-lining process. Regardless of what internet experts say, those who use them have nothing but the highest praise for them. The fuckers plain shoot. DAMN well. Best of both worlds, frankly. |
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Posted: 7/4/2015 10:29:38 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmedFerret:
Why not go match chrome-lined? Fulton sells Criterion match-grade barrels with a proprietary chrome-lining process. Regardless of what internet experts say, those who use them have nothing but the highest praise for them. The fuckers plain shoot. DAMN well. Best of both worlds, frankly. Yup... Something along these lines. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 7/4/2015 11:02:29 AM EDT
[#8]
there's a reason that you see seas of stainless barrels in the rifle racks at competitions where bolt action rifles reign and carbon steel are comparatively uncommon and chrome lined are non-existent. If chrome lining was good for a match rifle, or even allegedly good, all high power metallic silhouette shooters would have their bores chrome lined.
Case in point: 
And that was a rimfire match. The highpower matches have more stainless and even less non-stainless. You usually only see non-stainless barrels on factory guns at our matches. yes, I realize these are bolt guns but match shooting is match shooting for the most part. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 7/4/2015 2:53:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: borderpatrol]
[#9]
Budget "match ammo" is your problem. PRVI isn't match grade in my opinion, it's close but no cigar.
Hornady "steel match" should shoot better than PRVI. True match ammo gets loaded at home using Sierra, Nosler or Hornady match bullets and quality brass. For very little money compared to buying new ammo you can start loading your own. You'll recoup the equipment costs in a few years or less. You can always sell your equipment used if you decide it's not for you. You'll make a profit on it if you wait to sell during the next panic which is almost sure to come. I've shot as often and as much as I wanted to through the last four panic buying sprees when powder, bullets, primers and ammo were no where to be found. To me that is priceless. An added bonus was that very few people were at my local gun club because they couldn't buy ammo or they didn't want to shoot the little bit they had in stock. Many days I had the place to myself. Right now is an excellent time to start reloading, powders, primers and bullets are all in stock if shop around. BTW-1.5 moa with iron sights at 100 yards will shoot all X's and 10's on an NRA highpower target. Hardly mediocre. That's as good as I can count on shooting a chrome lined barrel with hand loads and iron sights and I've been classified NRA Master since 1989. My best loads in my best stainless steel barrels will shoot around .75" at 100 if I don't screw it up. Occasionally I'll get a 5/8" group using a scope and sand bags during load development. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 7:16:25 AM EDT
[#10]
I have a match grade chrome lined Criterion Hybrid that I have been testing. Above is a 9 round group I shot with my 1-6x Vortex Razor. I know it doesn't look like much compared to the cloverleaf groups some people shoot, but I subscribe to the MOLON school of thought: The practical accuracy of your barrel and shooter combo is best determined by a higher round count group, and any barrel shooting a 10 round group under 1.5 MOA is a dang good shooting barrel. The Criterion, for all intent and purpose, seems to be the right mix of accuracy and chrome lined longevity. I hope this rifle remains a shooter for thousands of rounds past a shot out SS barrel, even if I give up a slight degree of accuracy. Here is my journal of the barrel: Ongoing and Lengthy Barrel Review |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 7:24:59 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Knife_Sniper:
http://www.thenewrifleman.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Criterion-Hybrid-18-inch.jpg I have a match grade chrome lined Criterion Hybrid that I have been testing. Above is a 9 round group I shot with my 1-6x Vortex Razor. I know it doesn't look like much compared to the cloverleaf groups some people shoot, but I subscribe to the MOLON school of thought: The practical accuracy of your barrel and shooter combo is best determined by a higher round count group, and any barrel shooting a 10 round group under 1.5 MOA is a dang good shooting barrel. The Criterion, for all intent and purpose, seems to be the right mix of accuracy and chrome lined longevity. I hope this rifle remains a shooter for thousands of rounds past a shot out SS barrel, even if I give up a slight degree of accuracy. Here is my journal of the barrel: Ongoing and Lengthy Barrel Review but it's not stainless! and nobody at camp perry uses it, so it must not be any good! 
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Posted: 7/6/2015 7:58:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Couch-Commando]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By borderpatrol: Budget "match ammo" is your problem. PRVI isn't match grade in my opinion, it's close but no cigar. Hornady "steel match" should shoot better than PRVI. True match ammo gets loaded at home using Sierra, Nosler or Hornady match bullets and quality brass. For very little money compared to buying new ammo you can start loading your own. You'll recoup the equipment costs in a few years or less. You can always sell your equipment used if you decide it's not for you. You'll make a profit on it if you wait to sell during the next panic which is almost sure to come. I've shot as often and as much as I wanted to through the last four panic buying sprees when powder, bullets, primers and ammo were no where to be found. To me that is priceless. An added bonus was that very few people were at my local gun club because they couldn't buy ammo or they didn't want to shoot the little bit they had in stock. Many days I had the place to myself. Right now is an excellent time to start reloading, powders, primers and bullets are all in stock if shop around. BTW-1.5 moa with iron sights at 100 yards will shoot all X's and 10's on an NRA highpower target. Hardly mediocre. That's as good as I can count on shooting a chrome lined barrel with hand loads and iron sights and I've been classified NRA Master since 1989. My best loads in my best stainless steel barrels will shoot around .75" at 100 if I don't screw it up. Occasionally I'll get a 5/8" group using a scope and sand bags during load development.  ETA: The main reason I posted this thread is that I know shooting crap ammo results in crap accuracy in both standard and match barrels, and that I should be shooting a more expensive load like black hills 75 or 77 grain to achieve maximum performance out of a match barrel. Since I know I will be sticking with medium quality ammo like 75 grain prvi partizan or 75 grain steel match, I'm curious if others note a huge difference in accuracy at the bench between a match and standard barrel with medium quality ammo. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 3:05:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DaveS]
[#13]
Originally Posted By Couch-Commando:
I am currently a mediocre shooter. At my best, when I was shooting NRA high power, I got roughly 1.5 MOA from the bench with both a stock Colt A2 and a White Oak NRA high power rifle. Granted, I was using irons for both rifles, but from the bench I never saw any quantifiable difference in performance. I was using "budget" match ammo, such as 75 grain prvi partizan and 75 grain Hornady steel match. I guess my question is for the mediocre shooters among you using budget match ammo and nice scopes; do you see a major difference between match barrels and milspec? The maximum range I would be shooting such a rifle would be 600 yards. If'n I was you, BUTT!!! knowing what I have experienced, know, believe, ponder, ache for, ... Purchase one of these two (2) pieces of pipe with/for no regrets [and stick them in a MUR-1A upper receiver with a BCM BCG]: https://www.stagarms.com/24-5-56-bull-barrel Same barrel that they stick in their 
0.5 MOA rifles 410 SS instead of 416 
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ OR: https://armalite.com/shop/m-15t-rifle-barrel-assembly 
I'm partial to ARMALITE pipe BUTT!!! an extra 4 inches on the STAG is sweet when going 1K. Best to you. _____________________________ You can purchase either piece of pipe as a completed upper from both companies: https://www.stagarms.com/model-6h/ 
https://armalite.com/shop/m-15-target-rifle-complete-upper 
______________________________________________________________ "You" don't need a Bartlein piece of pipe {for now} AND I've never met an ARMALITE 20" piece of Chrome-Lined goodness that couldn't shoot sub 0.5" [screw MOA for now] for multiple five (5) shot groups @ 100yds with fodder that it liked. ___________________________________________________________________________ BTW, Most people can't shoot. There's probably more sub MOA barrels out there than there are shooters that can shoot. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 6:26:39 PM EDT
[#14]
The barrels I'm deciding between are a 1-7 twist Colt government profile (which I have) and getting a white oak SDM barrel instead (basically a fluted hbar profile). I also have a 20'' white oak barrel on my service rifle build that I'm considering cannibalizing since I haven't shot NRA high power recently, though intend to again at some point in the future. I could pull that barrel and have it fluted and end up with pretty much the same barrel.
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Posted: 7/7/2015 1:38:54 AM EDT
[#15]
With a Mk.12 Mod 0 clone build for a fellow forum member, with CLE SPR barrel, I was repeatedly bug-holing with 69gr PPU Match ammo first groups using that load.
We're talking .42 to .52 MOA. I say get the most affordable ammo after testing your rifle out, in a solid rest/bagged position that eliminates as much of you as the variable. It also helps to have a top-end trigger for this. I used several accurizing techniques for the build as well, so I know they didn't hurt. |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 7/9/2015 1:42:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: MS556]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmedFerret:
Why not go match chrome-lined? Fulton sells Criterion match-grade barrels with a proprietary chrome-lining process. Regardless of what internet experts say, those who use them have nothing but the highest praise for them. The fuckers plain shoot. DAMN well. Best of both worlds, frankly. Best of both worlds would be the new match stainless barrel that is then nitride QPQ SN treated. No lining to possibly have irregularities. The bore and rifling contours remain pristine and unaltered, but the surface is hardened to about that of hard chrome, greatly extending barrel life. |
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Posted: 7/9/2015 7:45:28 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LRRPF52: With a Mk.12 Mod 0 clone build for a fellow forum member, with CLE SPR barrel, I was repeatedly bug-holing with 69gr PPU Match ammo first groups using that load. We're talking .42 to .52 MOA. I say get the most affordable ammo after testing your rifle out, in a solid rest/bagged position that eliminates as much of you as the variable. It also helps to have a top-end trigger for this. I used several accurizing techniques for the build as well, so I know they didn't hurt.  |
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Posted: 7/14/2015 2:36:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Homeinvader]
[#18]
Chrome lining is for service rifles, not precision rifles. The argument for chrome lining isn't that it adds anything, it's that it doesn't detract.
Think about it this way: No one has ever proposed an argument (at least I've never heard it) that chrome lining results in more precise lands and grooves or a more accurate barrel. The best argument you tend to hear tries to equate chrome lining to stainless steel: "It's just as good" or "there's no difference". So then ask yourself why you really need chrome lining. As for the underlying steel... For anyone that has ever worked a chrome-moly barrel and a stainless steel barrel on a lathe, you know first hand how much smoother stainless steel machines and can be cut. Chrome-moly simply chips on a lathe, which is indicative of its metallurgy. Stainless is a uniform blend, it's the same throughout, so it cuts smoothly and wears evenly. Chrome-moly is very imperfect in this way, it will show higher concentrations of chromium in one area, then a high concentration of molybdenum in another, then another of vanadium. Each of these metals has a different hardness, wear resistence and corrosion resistance, which is why chrome-moly barrels develop "bald spots" in the bore where rifling has worn down, the weakest part of the bore wears out first. these metals also have different heat resistance, which can cause areas of the bore to expand and contract at different rates, which is also bad for precision. Comparatively, you mill a well cared for but "shot out" stainless barrel in half and you'll notice the bore is worn out evenly along its whole length. As stated, matches are almost entirely populated by stainless. And stainless is the barrel of choice for every precision rifle used in every branch of the military. There a reason for this... |
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Posted: 7/17/2015 6:55:38 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote Historybut it's not stainless! and nobody at camp perry uses it, so it must not be any good! At Perry you can shoot chrome-lined or you can shoot to win -- your choice. America -- ain't it great? |
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Posted: 7/18/2015 1:18:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Couch-Commando:
The barrels I'm deciding between are a 1-7 twist Colt government profile (which I have) and getting a white oak SDM barrel instead (basically a fluted hbar profile). I also have a 20'' white oak barrel on my service rifle build that I'm considering cannibalizing since I haven't shot NRA high power recently, though intend to again at some point in the future. I could pull that barrel and have it fluted and end up with pretty much the same barrel. http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17565&cat=312&page=3 I did this with my White Oak 20" SDM barrel at 85 yards using 75gr Hornady TAP 
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Posted: 7/18/2015 2:06:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sinister:
At Perry you can shoot chrome-lined or you can shoot to win -- your choice. America -- ain't it great? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sinister:
but it's not stainless! and nobody at camp perry uses it, so it must not be any good! At Perry you can shoot chrome-lined or you can shoot to win -- your choice. America -- ain't it great? And on arfcom, you can either offer actual tech advice or you can be a condescending twat. Hooray for choice!!! |
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Posted: 7/18/2015 2:55:38 PM EDT
[#22]
Originally Posted By Couch-Commando:
I am currently a mediocre shooter. At my best, when I was shooting NRA high power, I got roughly 1.5 MOA from the bench with both a stock Colt A2 and a White Oak NRA high power rifle. Granted, I was using irons for both rifles, but from the bench I never saw any quantifiable difference in performance. I was using "budget" match ammo, such as 75 grain prvi partizan and 75 grain Hornady steel match. I guess my question is for the mediocre shooters among you using budget match ammo and nice scopes; do you see a major difference between match barrels and milspec? The maximum range I would be shooting such a rifle would be 600 yards. Hell, partner, you already know the answer, don't you? |
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Posted: 7/18/2015 7:05:28 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmedFerret: And on arfcom, you can either offer actual tech advice or you can be a condescending twat. Hooray for choice!!! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmedFerret: Originally Posted By Sinister: At Perry you can shoot chrome-lined or you can shoot to win -- your choice. America -- ain't it great? And on arfcom, you can either offer actual tech advice or you can be a condescending twat. Hooray for choice!!! I'll trust his educated opinion. |
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Posted: 7/19/2015 3:01:04 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sinister: Hell, partner, you already know the answer, don't you? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sinister: Originally Posted By Couch-Commando: I am currently a mediocre shooter. At my best, when I was shooting NRA high power, I got roughly 1.5 MOA from the bench with both a stock Colt A2 and a White Oak NRA high power rifle. Granted, I was using irons for both rifles, but from the bench I never saw any quantifiable difference in performance. I was using "budget" match ammo, such as 75 grain prvi partizan and 75 grain Hornady steel match. I guess my question is for the mediocre shooters among you using budget match ammo and nice scopes; do you see a major difference between match barrels and milspec? The maximum range I would be shooting such a rifle would be 600 yards. Hell, partner, you already know the answer, don't you? What I'm looking for here is a rifle I can use to start out on the path to become a decent long range shooter. I've always enjoyed shooting at medium ranges (300-500 yards). I unfortunately haven't had that many opportunities to do it out here in NC. I've looked up some fairly local ranges that are big enough for shooting at those distances. You folks have convinced me. When I'm ready to go through with this project, I'll pull the Colt barrel and put it in reserve for my A2 clone (my "beater/plinker" 556 AR) and pick up the White Oak SDM or SPR barrel. Thanks again for the advice. |
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Posted: 7/19/2015 8:48:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sinister]
[#25]
Some of the finest long-range rifle shooters in America shoot in North State Shooting Club matches at Camp Butner (north of Durham). They are some of the nicest and most inclusive shooters I have ever had the pleasure of associating with. More than likely they'll let you shoot from a rest, bipod, or sling at 600, irons or glass machts nichts.
The standard A2/A4 rear peep is kind of big -- I'd probably go to a .040 if your eyes can resolve it. A standard A2 front sight should be good to go. The trigger on your stock A2 will hold you back. Your Colt barrel should give you fairly good service shooting handloads. I'd try 24.5 of Varget, TAC, or Reloader-15 pushing a 75 AMAX, or plastic-tipped 77 or 80-grain HPBT Sierra Match King (to start). Seat long as the 5.56mm NATO chamber has a long leade (try 2.500" cartridge overall length). My guess is the White Oak will probably be closer to 2.450". Good luck -- you'll get there! |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 12:11:27 AM EDT
[#26]
Shot this today with my new Criterion build. I'm hoping to use this in MOA All Day...
16" Criterion, 50 yards, Hornady TAP 75gr, 5 rounds 
Same as above, 10 rounds 
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Posted: 7/20/2015 1:23:44 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AWDeity: Shot this today with my new Criterion build. I'm hoping to use this in MOA All Day... 16" Criterion, 50 yards, Hornady TAP 75gr, 5 rounds http://i.imgur.com/nHz7OCgl.jpg Same as above, 10 rounds http://i.imgur.com/VbEJQiQl.jpg http://i.imgur.com/FosHCQOl.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Fb38M1Nl.jpg |
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Posted: 7/20/2015 1:26:41 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sinister: Some of the finest long-range rifle shooters in America shoot in North State Shooting Club matches at Camp Butner (north of Durham). They are some of the nicest and most inclusive shooters I have ever had the pleasure of associating with. More than likely they'll let you shoot from a rest, bipod, or sling at 600, irons or glass machts nichts. The standard A2/A4 rear peep is kind of big -- I'd probably go to a .040 if your eyes can resolve it. A standard A2 front sight should be good to go. The trigger on your stock A2 will hold you back. Your Colt barrel should give you fairly good service shooting handloads. I'd try 24.5 of Varget, TAC, or Reloader-15 pushing a 75 AMAX, or plastic-tipped 77 or 80-grain HPBT Sierra Match King (to start). Seat long as the 5.56mm NATO chamber has a long leade (try 2.500" cartridge overall length). My guess is the White Oak will probably be closer to 2.450". Good luck -- you'll get there! I think I'll proceed with this build later in the year when I have the cash. I'll probably go with a White Oak SDM barrel, though I am open to suggestions of medium weight match barrels. I'm interested in 18'' and 20'' barrels. I want the build to be light enough that I can use it for other stuff. I intend to get a 2.5-10x scope, or something in that magnification range. |
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Posted: 7/21/2015 8:48:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AWDeity]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Couch-Commando:
I have a White Oak service rifle upper for NRA high power. It has all the bells and whistles including quarter minute sights with a set of hooded apertures. I think I'll proceed with this build later in the year when I have the cash. I'll probably go with a White Oak SDM barrel, though I am open to suggestions of medium weight match barrels. I'm interested in 18'' and 20'' barrels. I want the build to be light enough that I can use it for other stuff. I intend to get a 2.5-10x scope, or something in that magnification range. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Couch-Commando:
Originally Posted By Sinister:
Some of the finest long-range rifle shooters in America shoot in North State Shooting Club matches at Camp Butner (north of Durham). They are some of the nicest and most inclusive shooters I have ever had the pleasure of associating with. More than likely they'll let you shoot from a rest, bipod, or sling at 600, irons or glass machts nichts. The standard A2/A4 rear peep is kind of big -- I'd probably go to a .040 if your eyes can resolve it. A standard A2 front sight should be good to go. The trigger on your stock A2 will hold you back. Your Colt barrel should give you fairly good service shooting handloads. I'd try 24.5 of Varget, TAC, or Reloader-15 pushing a 75 AMAX, or plastic-tipped 77 or 80-grain HPBT Sierra Match King (to start). Seat long as the 5.56mm NATO chamber has a long leade (try 2.500" cartridge overall length). My guess is the White Oak will probably be closer to 2.450". Good luck -- you'll get there! I think I'll proceed with this build later in the year when I have the cash. I'll probably go with a White Oak SDM barrel, though I am open to suggestions of medium weight match barrels. I'm interested in 18'' and 20'' barrels. I want the build to be light enough that I can use it for other stuff. I intend to get a 2.5-10x scope, or something in that magnification range. My White Oak 20" SDM with an SLR Ultra Light M-Lok is EDIT 5lbs 1oz on my scale, no optic or mount. |
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Posted: 3/17/2016 6:05:54 AM EDT
[#30]
bump
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Posted: 11/13/2016 2:47:57 PM EDT
[#31]
Any updates? Any word on how quality nitride barrels are shooting compared to chrome lined or stainless?
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Posted: 11/13/2016 3:10:54 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MRW:
Any updates? Any word on how quality nitride barrels are shooting compared to chrome lined or stainless? Nitride has no effect on how a barrel shoots, accuracy wise. That's all in the quality of the blank and work that went into it. They seem to be faster barrels, though. |
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Posted: 11/13/2016 10:46:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MS556]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ziarifleman:
Nitride has no effect on how a barrel shoots, accuracy wise. That's all in the quality of the blank and work that went into it. They seem to be faster barrels, though. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By MRW:
Any updates? Any word on how quality nitride barrels are shooting compared to chrome lined or stainless? Nitride has no effect on how a barrel shoots, accuracy wise. That's all in the quality of the blank and work that went into it. They seem to be faster barrels, though. The reason benchrest shooters are nitriding stainless match barrels is to prolong the barrel's gilt-edged accuracy. They can shoot the same barrel for more rounds before exceptional accuracy degrades to the point that they must replace the barrel. |
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Posted: 12/4/2016 9:29:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MRW:
Any updates? Any word on how quality nitride barrels are shooting compared to chrome lined or stainless? Totally forgot about this thread. I abandoned this build and put the money into night vision instead.
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WI, USA
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Posted: 12/5/2016 2:33:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JJREA]
[#35]
Well if you ever do go back to that idea, I vote for the White Oak barrel. The Colt barrels that were chrome lined that I've owned or do own, always seemed more picky about ammo than the Stainless ones I owned. The two stainless I have now show little to no shift in POI from load to load. And in general are more accurate than the Colt ones I've owned. That isn't to say I haven't gotten decent groups from the standard barrel. But maybe not quite as good as the stainless. But that's because they Colt barrels I had were either LW or govt profile. And the stainless I have are a thicker profile. So I have no clue if the chrome lining is even to blame. But still, I'd go with a stainless if I was wanting a good shooting barrel. My M1A has a stainless barrel too (Loaded) and that thing shoots better than the other battle rifles I have that are just normal GI types. There again, a bit thicker profile than a garand barrel. But still.... Now I did have a skinny SAK barreled upper that seemed to shoot pretty well. But never got to shoot it with anything more than 4x on it. So I didn't quite test it thoroughly.
And the one question you asked that I figured you would've known better is about if you get a barrel will it shoot those cheaper 75 grainers well. ALL BARRELS ARE PREJUDICED. You have to find out what each one likes. Some are less so than others though. |
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Posted: 12/5/2016 3:22:12 PM EDT
[#36]
Originally Posted By Couch-Commando:
I am currently a mediocre shooter. At my best, when I was shooting NRA high power, I got roughly 1.5 MOA from the bench with both a stock Colt A2 and a White Oak NRA high power rifle. Granted, I was using irons for both rifles, but from the bench I never saw any quantifiable difference in performance. I was using "budget" match ammo, such as 75 grain prvi partizan and 75 grain Hornady steel match. I guess my question is for the mediocre shooters among you using budget match ammo and nice scopes; do you see a major difference between match barrels and milspec? The maximum range I would be shooting such a rifle would be 600 yards. 1.5moa at 100 with irons is not mediocre shooting. Shooting from the bench is a mediocre amount of fun, but I digress... |
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Posted: 12/10/2016 2:36:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: csrevenant]
[#37]
Nvm got it.
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Posted: 7/15/2023 10:11:39 AM EDT
[#38]
I have gone over to nitride barrels. No more chrome lined or stainless
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FL, USA
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Posted: 7/15/2023 11:38:03 AM EDT
[#39]
I have done the same, but now only shoot for fun, but I don't seem to see copper fouling anymore, just carbon on my patches.
I do have a stainless 26" Kreiger bull barrel from when I shot long range(20 years ago) that probably still has a lot of life in it. i need to get the throat scoped to see what it really looks like, then trim off a couple inches and make a handier shorter range gun around it |
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Posted: 7/15/2023 9:50:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cone256]
[#40]
Wow this thread was resurrected from the grave. Last post before today 2016....
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/17/2023 7:43:18 AM EDT
[#41]
I think this thread still be benefits shooters new to precision ARs.
Currently, I have a DD 16" chrome lined 1/7 ) lightweight barrel that shoots ~1 MOA and occasionally ~.75 MOA with match ammo it likes in the 77 grain range. It never shoots .5 MOA groups. I have a 16" custom stainless fluted slim HBAR made from a Bartlein blank by CLE. It only weighs about 5oz more and shoots consistent .65-.75 MOA groups. A full MOA group is a rarity just like a .5 MOA group or less is a rarity. It prefers 77 grain match ammo but is not as picky about which factory match 77 grain loads it likes vs. the DD chrome lined barrel. I have found that nitride barrels take a long time to break in and on the whole are not as accurate as uncoated stainless barrels. They also are not better than the best chromelined barrels when they are good. Nitriding is mostly an exterior cosmetic option on stainless barrels and only seems to reach true durability potential on chrome moly barrels. Chamber specs, barrel materials, profiles, and coatings all seem to be very much secondary to the quality of the blank, and the quality of the smith doing the chambering and profiling. You can't use materials, coatings, profiles, or chamber specs to determine if a barrel is a shooter or not. Sure, a heavy barrel can shoot more rounds before heat opens the groups. Sure, it is a little less picky about tuning. Sure, .223 Wylde s GENERALLY a bit better than 5.56, and .223 is GENERALLY a bit better than 223 Wylde, but the quality of the chambering is FAR more important. Sure single cut is generally better than button cut rifling, but both can make barrels better than you can shoot. Hammer forged can make a better bore than mass produced button rifling, but quality button or single cut bores that are hand lapped can be better. I would place more emphasis on the barrel maker than any specification sheet. But if you want the BEST possible opportunity for accuracy it will be single cut, uncoated, stainless steel with a .223 match chamber specific to that barrel maker. Twist won't matter as long as it is high enough to stabilize the projectiles and low enough to not damage them. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 7/18/2023 11:23:07 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DevL: I think this thread still be benefits shooters new to precision ARs. Currently, I have a DD 16" chrome lined 1/7 ) lightweight barrel that shoots ~1 MOA and occasionally ~.75 MOA with match ammo it likes in the 77 grain range. It never shoots .5 MOA groups. I have a 16" custom stainless fluted slim HBAR made from a Bartlein blank by CLE. It only weighs about 5oz more and shoots consistent .65-.75 MOA groups. A full MOA group is a rarity just like a .5 MOA group or less is a rarity. It prefers 77 grain match ammo but is not as picky about which factory match 77 grain loads it likes vs. the DD chrome lined barrel. I have found that nitride barrels take a long time to break in and on the whole are not as accurate as uncoated stainless barrels. They also are not better than the best chromelined barrels when they are good. Nitriding is mostly an exterior cosmetic option on stainless barrels and only seems to reach true durability potential on chrome moly barrels. Chamber specs, barrel materials, profiles, and coatings all seem to be very much secondary to the quality of the blank, and the quality of the smith doing the chambering and profiling. You can't use materials, coatings, profiles, or chamber specs to determine if a barrel is a shooter or not. Sure, a heavy barrel can shoot more rounds before heat opens the groups. Sure, it is a little less picky about tuning. Sure, .223 Wylde s GENERALLY a bit better than 5.56, and .223 is GENERALLY a bit better than 223 Wylde, but the quality of the chambering is FAR more important. Sure single cut is generally better than button cut rifling, but both can make barrels better than you can shoot. Hammer forged can make a better bore than mass produced button rifling, but quality button or single cut bores that are hand lapped can be better. I would place more emphasis on the barrel maker than any specification sheet. But if you want the BEST possible opportunity for accuracy it will be single cut, uncoated, stainless steel with a .223 match chamber specific to that barrel maker. Twist won't matter as long as it is high enough to stabilize the projectiles and low enough to not damage them. Very well stated |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 8/5/2023 6:00:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: xsrfs]
[#43]
How would the PSA stainless uppers for .308 or 6.5 creedmoor fit in this rejeuvenated discussion?
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TN, USA
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Posted: 8/5/2023 6:00:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: xsrfs]
[#44]
Deleted. Double post
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CA, USA
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Posted: 8/18/2023 2:56:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Musketjon]
[#45]
Originally Posted By Couch-Commando: I am currently a mediocre shooter. At my best, when I was shooting NRA high power, I got roughly 1.5 MOA from the bench with both a stock Colt A2 and a White Oak NRA high power rifle. Granted, I was using irons for both rifles, but from the bench I never saw any quantifiable difference in performance. I was using "budget" match ammo, such as 75 grain prvi partizan and 75 grain Hornady steel match. I guess my question is for the mediocre shooters among you using budget match ammo and nice scopes; do you see a major difference between match barrels and milspec? The maximum range I would be shooting such a rifle would be 600 yards. You told us the "problem" in your first sentence. Work on the mediocracy before spending ammo money on a barrel. When you can out-shoot your current set up, THEN, and ONLY THEN, entertain the barrel up tick. At your current level, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two barrels. I have a friend who shoots high master. He made it to Expert with a Colt Hbar 20" chrom-lined, unfloated barrel. Practice, practice, practice, BUT practice proper technique. |
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Posted: 8/19/2023 5:59:57 PM EDT
[#46]
Lol, I started this thread years ago. I bought night vision instead.
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Posted: 8/20/2023 9:38:22 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Musketjon: Work on the mediocracy before spending ammo money on a barrel. When you can out-shoot your current set up, THEN, and ONLY THEN, entertain the barrel up tick. The OP isn't going to know whether or not he can "out shoot" his current barrel unless he has a better barrel to shoot. And there are people who can actually afford a new barrel and all the ammunition that they can shoot. ... |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 10/31/2023 11:47:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: MS556]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Couch-Commando: It is from the bench. I can't shoot that well in a real NRA shooting position. ETA: The main reason I posted this thread is that I know shooting crap ammo results in crap accuracy in both standard and match barrels, and that I should be shooting a more expensive load like black hills 75 or 77 grain to achieve maximum performance out of a match barrel. Since I know I will be sticking with medium quality ammo like 75 grain prvi partizan or 75 grain steel match, I'm curious if others note a huge difference in accuracy at the bench between a match and standard barrel with medium quality ammo. Resurrecting this old thread for the benefit of others. Probably not. The limiting factor is ammo quality. If you want to shoot sub MOA, especially deep sub MOA, a match grade 416 stainless hand lapped tight chambered match barrel makes a difference, but only with precision true match grade ammo. I make handloaded match ammo with Berger OTM match bullets in Lapua Match benchrest prepped cases, Federal GMMM primers and carefully worked up individually weighted powder charges. You may need to be this OCD to start chasing super small groups. |
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Posted: 11/1/2023 9:01:02 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MS556: Resurrecting this old thread for the benefit of others. Probably not. The limiting factor is ammo quality. If you want to shoot sub MOA, especially deep sub MOA, a match grade 416 stainless hand lapped tight chambered match barrel makes a difference, but only with precision true match grade ammo. I make handloaded match ammo with Berger OTM match bullets in Lapua Match benchrest prepped cases, Federal GMMM primers and carefully worked up individually weighted powder charges. You may need to be this OCD to start chasing super small groups. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 11/28/2023 2:58:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Musketjon]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Couch-Commando: I would like to add that when I posted this thread, I was stocked up on 75 grain hornady steel match and 75 grain pirvi partisan. My accuracy increased measurably when I switched to magtech loaded with 77 smks. I have a WW govt model with a cl 20" barrel. I can easily shoot 1.5 moa 5-shot, 100 yd groups with it consistently. The "problem" is when I shoot 20-round groups (as in the slow-prone 600 yard string of xtc matches) at 100 yd. It will consistently shoot 2.25-2.5 moa, and this is with both front and rear rested AND a cle free float handguard as well. Seems no matter what load I try in it (they're home-rolled), that's as good as it will shoot. I've tried about a dozen different bullet/powder combos, and they're all hovering around that 2.5 moa mark. I haven't tried the 69 or 77 SMK's yet--been trying Hornady 75 hpbt(m) as they're more affordable on my income (retired, you know). Maybe I need to try the SMK's?? I've heard it said that if your rifle won't shoot 69/77 SMK's, it won't shoot any thing. The WW barrels are supposedly Green Mountain and are supposedly good barrels. Maybe I got the first one from Monday morning or the last one from Friday afternoon. Other than a different barrel, I don't know what else to do. The scope is a Bushnell AR series. I know it's not really a "match" scope, but again, I have to stay within my budget. The mount is a Warne X-skel, and all fastening hardware is torqued to spec and double checked. I'm at a loss as for what to do. |
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