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Posted: 1/14/2024 6:40:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: barrysuperhawk]
TL;DR I think I might want a new rifle, make uninformed recommendations below...
I'm in kind of an odd position. I just joined a gun club with 1200+yard range, because I have never shot that far and I want to. The catch is that in order to shoot at 1200 (or anything past 600) I have to Qualify at that range to be certified to shoot there. So, there I was, unable to practice for a qualification that I have to pass while staying under 2 MOA. Well, it's not really that bad, but it is concerning that I will have real money on the line, and a bunch of it, on whether or not I can qualify up to 1200, when I don't have anywhere to practice or even to verify my dope at half that range. I have shot out to 600 on several occasions - both CMP High power matches (with open sight service rifle guns) and then a couple years ago when the USPSA nationals were at Talledega, I brought a rifle and qualified out to 600 in my off time. Right now I have a a Bergera B14 in .308 that I have only ever shot out to 600. I have been successful with that rifle at 600 with 175 sierra (M118LR), according to the computer at Talledega, I kept it under 1 MOA at 600. I have other rifles but the Bergera seems the most accurate. Everything else I have access to are semi-autos set up for 3 gun and not really suitable for 1000+ accuracy. Reading around on the internet, 1200 with a .308 seems entirely possible, but maybe not ideal and possibly requiring much more skill than I currently possess. The biggest detriment to this is the drop seems to get excessive as well as not staying supersonic. At one point I had the idea to get a 6.5, and had even obtained a criterion 24" AR10 pattern barrel. But I didn't have anything else to even start that build when Illinois made buying all of that stuff illegal. Thus my choices seem to be use what I have and hope for the best, buy another bolt action in a more suitable caliber, or order/build some type of custom rifle. Buying a new rifle is always a fun thing, but I don't want to buy a rifle ONLY for this project, so I will want something that I can take to PRS matches as opposed to a dedicated benchrest gun. Buying a custom of some type means I would at the mercy of the builder backlog, but BUILDING a custom puts me at the mercy of the "supply chain" and my own lack of talent and experience. Another option is obviously EE but I have always been marginally suspicious of used target rigs because IME they typically represent alot of time and effort that the seller was unhappy with for some reason and decided to dump rather than "I just need $$ for another project" or somesuch. Obviously that isn't always the case or even a majority but I have learned I have a pretty amazing ability to find the one scammer in a sea of honest folk, so I am cautious. So, those of you that have shot at 1200+, how did you solve the problem? Edited to add my post from 2nd page: OK so one more hurdle passed in my quest, I just took the "midrange" course at the range and learned quite a few things. Technically I was not required to take *this* training, I could have skipped straight to midrange "qualification," but the training was cheap, I enjoy the company of fellow shooters, and like I said, I DID learn stuff. My instructors were a Marine sniper, a Civilian Benchrest shooter, and a third guy that may have been a police sniper (I don't remember the guys background from the introductions). I learned that military trained "snipers" have a vastly different outlook than self-taught civilian "marksmen" I mean Duh, but I had no idea the gulf was that vast. I mean the problem of ballistics at the heart is fairly simple, launch a projectile at a certain angle and speed sufficient to result in that projectiles impact with precision. The MIL vs MOA comparison came up, but not like on the internet, there was no purse swinging. It was merely simplified down to MOA was better for ultimate precision at known distances, and MIL was MUCH faster at unknown distances where you might have to do the math in your head. The Marine came up with the single best explanation I have ever heard. If I give you 17 quarters or 17 dimes, which pile is worth more $$, and which is faster to figure out how much you have? First and foremost, calling WIND is fucking VOODOO. I'm totally serious. I need ALOT more training, explanation and guidance on wind. I mean mirage makes sense, and I can see trace with my nice spotting scope (sorry Athlon), but when the instructor started talking about how "his" gun was a 4mph and we needed to figure out what our guns were, and then split his explanations into "this only works in MOA and that only works in MIL" ... I heard the explanations, and I believe I even retained most of them, but it was fucking voodoo. Clearly 40 minutes of discussion in a classroom is not going to be sufficient for me to actually understand. I also learned that I am apparently a better shot at 600 in higher winds, than I am at 200 with less winds. I say that because when we converted my groups to MOA, my 600y target was half the MOA of my 200y target. Full disclosure when I shot 200y the pollen was whooping my ass AND I had had a Monster Coffee shortly beforehand. When we got to the 600y line, it had rained and knocked alot of the pollen down, AND I had no coffee in me...  I still have to make arrangements to actually Qualify for midrange (take a written test and shoot for record) but that can come later and is individually scheduled. Then the "Long Range" course is next, followed by Long Range Qualification - and I will finally be able to shoot to 1200. So, I was also able to directly compare my .308 with M118LR ammo to my two new (to me) 6.5 Creedmoors with Horny 140's, AND make some discoveries about clean barrels vs unclean barrels. The Marine and the Civilian also had drastically different views on cleaning, and its effect on accuracy. Typically I have been in the "don't clean it until it stops working" camp, the The Marine seemed to have a foot in each puddle, with a hardon for powder fouling, but was content to leave most copper fouling in as it's "natural state." the Civilian...well, I got the impression he probably gets a weekly delivery of patches and they have to use a box-truck and forklift. I noticed the .308 wasn't shooting as tight as I was accustomed to, so I pulled some patches through it, and it improved (the other reason I shot better at 600 than 200  . The first 6.5 was used when I bought it, and I only put enough rounds through to get it on paper before this, so it was an unknown. It wasn't terribly dirty, but it did tighten up after a few patches. The other 6.5 was literally brand-factory new, I didn't have any chance to test fire or even zero it before I got to the range. I probably didn't fire enough rounds to properly break it in, but I did pull some patches. The most surprising thing for me was my ES/SD after cleaning were HALF of what they were before in the .308. The difference was even more pronounced in the Savage, the ES/SD were mathematically just over a third what they were before cleaning. I have that new little Garmin, so there was no reason not to record every shot. I suppose it makes sense but I was utterly Shocked nonetheless. I guess Cleaning isn't just for nerds anymore... |
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Posted: 1/14/2024 7:09:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Sinister]
[#1]
I bought a SAKO TRG-42 in 338 Lapua Magnum.
I bypassed 300 Win Mag and the 6.5s / 7mms completely. Shooting GI E-types with a 338 Lapua at 1,000 yards is ridiculously easy. 1500 is in working range. 1600-1800 takes honest work. 1900 to 2200 take a LOT of work and a good spotter (coach)-shooter relationship. For the average talented guy with mid- and long-range wind reading experience use these as general benchmarks for maximum effective range: 7.62 with M118LR or Berger 185 Juggernauts, 800 yards; 30-06, 900 yards. 300 Winchester Magnum and 7mm Remington Magnum, 1,000 yards; 338 Lapua, 1200 yards. |
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Posted: 1/14/2024 7:24:10 PM EDT
[#2]
6.5 creedmore will do 1200 yards easy even from a 24 inch barrel
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Posted: 1/14/2024 7:48:18 PM EDT
[#3]
That seems like a very odd situation. Normally the answer is to go hang out with the people you want to shoot with and get guidance and direction from them. As for the rifle I'd go 6.5 Creedmoor and keep it easy. Really need to know budget but either way no need to get super fancy.
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Posted: 1/14/2024 8:01:23 PM EDT
[#4]
Sounds like you have a .308 that’s zeroed and have dope out to 600 yards for it?
If that’s the case I would get a high-end ballistics app like Applied Ballistics and build a profile for your rifle and ammo that matches your established 600 dope, and then run calcs out to 1200 yards. I did this when I had a new rifle I needed to set up for a 1,000 yard event, but only had access to a 200 yard range and my chronograph. Got to the event and was within 1mo of my calculations out to 1,000. You have it even better. Your zero + 600 yard dope is even better for calculating longer ranges than just a zero and a chrono. I say work up your dope estimates and go for it. |
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Posted: 1/14/2024 8:30:15 PM EDT
[#5]
Benchrest Rifle Club does the same. Trust your chronograph and ballistic calculator is all you can do.
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Posted: 1/14/2024 8:51:07 PM EDT
[#6]
OP,,Buy an Accuracy International and be done with it. Multiple barrels/calibers for the same basic rifle.
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Posted: 1/14/2024 8:56:46 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By reelserious: 6.5 creedmore will do 1200 yards easy even from a 24 inch barrel This^ Where are you OP? If you are close, I’ll let you shoot my little Tikka and you will wonder why you were fretting about it. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/15/2024 12:12:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: barrysuperhawk]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: That seems like a very odd situation. Normally the answer is to go hang out with the people you want to shoot with and get guidance and direction from them. As for the rifle I'd go 6.5 Creedmoor and keep it easy. Really need to know budget but either way no need to get super fancy. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: That seems like a very odd situation. Normally the answer is to go hang out with the people you want to shoot with and get guidance and direction from them. As for the rifle I'd go 6.5 Creedmoor and keep it easy. Really need to know budget but either way no need to get super fancy. The only flaw in that plan is its almost 3 hours from my home so just "going to hang out" probably isn't going to be sufficient, partially because the group of people that have already qualified is quite small (as in two tenths of a percent of the membership). I haven't really specified a budget because depending on how involved this ends up, it might be a good winter project, especially if I end up going with a new caliber and need to figure out the reloading too.... Originally Posted By AeroE: Benchrest Rifle Club does the same. Trust your chronograph and ballistic calculator is all you can do. Oddly enough, thats where I just joined, and they have alot of training and certification requirements. I have a magnetospeed but plugging in the same numbers (175 SMK, G1, 2575 fps) to Strelok, JDM and Hornady give me different information: Strelok: Range 1200 Velocity 1060 Drop in. 761 come up 56.3moa Hornady: RANGE (YDS) 1200 VELOCITY (FPS)1045TRAJECTORY (IN)-728COME UP (MOA) 57.9 JBM: Range 1200 Velocity 979.9Drop (in) -962.8 Drop (MOA) -70.1 Yes, I know two are showing come up, and one is drop... Originally Posted By mustb123: This^ Where are you OP? If you are close, I’ll let you shoot my little Tikka and you will wonder why you were fretting about it. I am behind enemy lines in Illinois, but I hear I can get flights to Ft Meyers PGD for like $60, and it is like -8 before wind chill at the moment... |
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Posted: 1/15/2024 1:34:30 AM EDT
[#9]
Ok no budget info.
You said you like your Bergara and they make rifles in lots of calibers suitable for 1200 yards. Ruger Precision Rifle Tikka makes a few options You can always buy an action stock and barrel. That seems to be a popular option and lets you get exactly what you want. For instance a longer barrel might be handy if your primary goal is long range shooting. |
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Posted: 1/15/2024 2:41:11 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sinister: I bought a SAKO TRG-42 in 338 Lapua Magnum. I bypassed 300 Win Mag and the 6.5s / 7mms completely. Shooting GI E-types with a 338 Lapua at 1,000 yards is ridiculously easy. 1500 is in working range. 1600-1800 takes honest work. 1900 to 2200 take a LOT of work and a good spotter (coach)-shooter relationship. For the average talented guy with mid- and long-range wind reading experience use these as general benchmarks for maximum effective range: 7.62 with M118LR or Berger 185 Juggernauts, 800 yards; 30-06, 900 yards. 300 Winchester Magnum and 7mm Remington Magnum, 1,000 yards; 338 Lapua, 1200 yards. 1800yds (well….1760) was surprisingly easy with a .338 LM. That said, most guys don’t want to shoot $5-$7 bills every time they pull the trigger. 6.5CM will do 1200 to no problem. So will .308 with the right ammo, but with the silly rules your range has it will take more work.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/15/2024 11:21:48 AM EDT
[#11]
First, stick with a bolt gun if going long and not a very good shooter. Semi auto rifles take more skill to hit targets at distance.
Second, the .308 can hit 1200 easily with the right bullet. Lose the 175s and M118LR and get some newer ammo with bullets with BCs above .520. I have shot to 1250 yards in matches with 168 ELD-Ms and hit more than the people shooting 6mms. You can get a 6.5 Creedmoor if you want and it will do 1200 very easily. And saying you need a .338 to hit 1200 yards is just hilarious.
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Posted: 1/15/2024 12:18:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AeroE]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By barrysuperhawk: The only flaw in that plan is its almost 3 hours from my home so just "going to hang out" probably isn't going to be sufficient, partially because the group of people that have already qualified is quite small (as in two tenths of a percent of the membership). I haven't really specified a budget because depending on how involved this ends up, it might be a good winter project, especially if I end up going with a new caliber and need to figure out the reloading too.... Oddly enough, thats where I just joined, and they have alot of training and certification requirements. I have a magnetospeed but plugging in the same numbers (175 SMK, G1, 2575 fps) to Strelok, JDM and Hornady give me different information: Strelok: Range 1200 Velocity 1060 Drop in. 761 come up 56.3moa Hornady: RANGE (YDS) 1200 VELOCITY (FPS)1045TRAJECTORY (IN)-728COME UP (MOA) 57.9 JBM: Range 1200 Velocity 979.9Drop (in) -962.8 Drop (MOA) -70.1 Yes, I know two are showing come up, and one is drop... I am behind enemy lines in Illinois, but I hear I can get flights to Ft Meyers PGD for like $60, and it is like -8 before wind chill at the moment... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By barrysuperhawk: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: That seems like a very odd situation. Normally the answer is to go hang out with the people you want to shoot with and get guidance and direction from them. As for the rifle I'd go 6.5 Creedmoor and keep it easy. Really need to know budget but either way no need to get super fancy. The only flaw in that plan is its almost 3 hours from my home so just "going to hang out" probably isn't going to be sufficient, partially because the group of people that have already qualified is quite small (as in two tenths of a percent of the membership). I haven't really specified a budget because depending on how involved this ends up, it might be a good winter project, especially if I end up going with a new caliber and need to figure out the reloading too.... Originally Posted By AeroE: Benchrest Rifle Club does the same. Trust your chronograph and ballistic calculator is all you can do. Oddly enough, thats where I just joined, and they have alot of training and certification requirements. I have a magnetospeed but plugging in the same numbers (175 SMK, G1, 2575 fps) to Strelok, JDM and Hornady give me different information: Strelok: Range 1200 Velocity 1060 Drop in. 761 come up 56.3moa Hornady: RANGE (YDS) 1200 VELOCITY (FPS)1045TRAJECTORY (IN)-728COME UP (MOA) 57.9 JBM: Range 1200 Velocity 979.9Drop (in) -962.8 Drop (MOA) -70.1 Yes, I know two are showing come up, and one is drop... Originally Posted By mustb123: This^ Where are you OP? If you are close, I'll let you shoot my little Tikka and you will wonder why you were fretting about it. I am behind enemy lines in Illinois, but I hear I can get flights to Ft Meyers PGD for like $60, and it is like -8 before wind chill at the moment... I have tried to convince the manager that a training and experience session is needed before shooting for qualification. Preferably under supervision of the instructor, if not another qualified member. That range layout is complicated enough without going in cold. This was taken before the 1200 yard target was added -  I got pissed off when the mid range class and qual was added. I have a classification card and a flag. The reason is bullshit and highlights the need for experience time on the range before shooting the qualification. |
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Posted: 1/15/2024 8:11:41 PM EDT
[#13]
OP, Why not a simple rebarrel with a prefit remage barrel? thats all you need to go from 308 to 6.5cm... you would need an action wrench and a barrel vice along with go/no go gauges. But it shouldn't be that hard to do...issue will be finding a place to dial it back in unless you can use your current 600 yard range...
https://preferredbarrelblanks.com/product/bergara-6-5-creed-ss-prefit-barrel/ |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/15/2024 8:22:23 PM EDT
[#14]
OP:
I too find it curious that the club wants you to do these various quals but doesn't provide training days or something. That's goofy. Just my 2%................... 6.5CM will/would do it. Where is this range.......... IL or the one mentioned in MO? |
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Posted: 1/15/2024 8:26:11 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKSnowRider: OP, Why not a simple rebarrel with a prefit remage barrel? thats all you need to go from 308 to 6.5cm... you would need an action wrench and a barrel vice along with go/no go gauges. But it shouldn't be that hard to do...issue will be finding a place to dial it back in unless you can use your current 600 yard range... https://preferredbarrelblanks.com/product/bergara-6-5-creed-ss-prefit-barrel/ Just to clarify a bit I don't think a standard Remage will work with the Bergara guns. They need additional work which is why the one in that link says modified for a Bergara. I remember some discussions on Snipershide about it. I just bring it up in case someone starts looking at other Remage barrels. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/15/2024 9:06:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: barrysuperhawk]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGH456E: OP: I too find it curious that the club wants you to do these various quals but doesn't provide training days or something. That's goofy. Just my 2%................... 6.5CM will/would do it. Where is this range.......... IL or the one mentioned in MO? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGH456E: OP: I too find it curious that the club wants you to do these various quals but doesn't provide training days or something. That's goofy. Just my 2%................... 6.5CM will/would do it. Where is this range.......... IL or the one mentioned in MO? Ok, I didn't describe the entire process, sorry, I was just trying to focus on getting opinions on the gun for this post. There *IS* a training class for the midrange (600) qualification, AND another for the 1200 Qualification, and I intend to take both because I enjoy classes just for their own sake. I'm just not even sure when the classes are going to be scheduled or if I will get in to them, but it seems like if I can start get the hardware end of this process sorted out over the winter, I can show up to the class(es) ready to take maximum benefit from them. Originally Posted By AKSnowRider: OP, Why not a simple rebarrel with a prefit remage barrel? thats all you need to go from 308 to 6.5cm... you would need an action wrench and a barrel vice along with go/no go gauges. But it shouldn't be that hard to do...issue will be finding a place to dial it back in unless you can use your current 600 yard range... https://preferredbarrelblanks.com/product/bergara-6-5-creed-ss-prefit-barrel/ I am happy with my current guns, so if I decide I cant get 1200 done reliably with 308, I probably just going to use this as an excuse to get another gun rather than try to convert something I already have. Speaking of a 308 at 1200, I DO have a 40MOA base that I can put on the Bergera that should get me out of the bottom of my adjustment on my scope.... |
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Posted: 1/16/2024 11:40:03 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Just to clarify a bit I don't think a standard Remage will work with the Bergara guns. They need additional work which is why the one in that link says modified for a Bergara. I remember some discussions on Snipershide about it. I just bring it up in case someone starts looking at other Remage barrels. Good info, I did not know that..that kind of sucks...  Thanks...
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Posted: 1/16/2024 11:47:10 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKSnowRider: Good info, I did not know that..that kind of sucks... Thanks...Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKSnowRider: Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Just to clarify a bit I don't think a standard Remage will work with the Bergara guns. They need additional work which is why the one in that link says modified for a Bergara. I remember some discussions on Snipershide about it. I just bring it up in case someone starts looking at other Remage barrels. Good info, I did not know that..that kind of sucks... Thanks...I think it's a simple machining thing but that's not my wheelhouse. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 12:07:52 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By barrysuperhawk: Ok, I didn't describe the entire process, sorry, I was just trying to focus on getting opinions on the gun for this post. There *IS* a training class for the midrange (600) qualification, AND another for the 1200 Qualification, and I intend to take both because I enjoy classes just for their own sake. I'm just not even sure when the classes are going to be scheduled or if I will get in to them, but it seems like if I can start get the hardware end of this process sorted out over the winter, I can show up to the class(es) ready to take maximum benefit from them. I am happy with my current guns, so if I decide I cant get 1200 done reliably with 308, I probably just going to use this as an excuse to get another gun rather than try to convert something I already have. Speaking of a 308 at 1200, I DO have a 40MOA base that I can put on the Bergera that should get me out of the bottom of my adjustment on my scope.... 1200 with a .308 isn’t happening reliably. You can keep better than 50% on 2 MOA steel at that range, but realistically that’s stretching 6.5 CM. Even with bullets that handle crossing the transonic threshold better you’re still going to have wind issues. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/17/2024 1:07:01 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cms81586: 1200 with a .308 isn’t happening reliably. You can keep better than 50% on 2 MOA steel at that range, but realistically that’s stretching 6.5 CM. Even with bullets that handle crossing the transonic threshold better you’re still going to have wind issues. Ok, now we are getting somewhere. I pretty much knew .308 probably wasn't the sauce. If 6.5 is marginal, then am I looking at one of the 15 varieties of 6mm? If I am getting a new rifle, I want to be able to shoot PRS/NRL with it in addition to passing the qualification, so which offers the best combination of attributes? |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 1:13:16 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By barrysuperhawk: Ok, now we are getting somewhere. I pretty much knew .308 probably wasn't the sauce. If 6.5 is marginal, then am I looking at one of the 15 varieties of 6mm? If I am getting a new rifle, I want to be able to shoot PRS/NRL with it in addition to passing the qualification, so which offers the best combination of attributes? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By barrysuperhawk: Originally Posted By cms81586: 1200 with a .308 isn’t happening reliably. You can keep better than 50% on 2 MOA steel at that range, but realistically that’s stretching 6.5 CM. Even with bullets that handle crossing the transonic threshold better you’re still going to have wind issues. Ok, now we are getting somewhere. I pretty much knew .308 probably wasn't the sauce. If 6.5 is marginal, then am I looking at one of the 15 varieties of 6mm? If I am getting a new rifle, I want to be able to shoot PRS/NRL with it in addition to passing the qualification, so which offers the best combination of attributes? My little Tikka 6.5 stays 1 moa at 1,000 yards. It hits reliably at 1,200, although I don’t have a range that will let me check the moa at 1,200 yards. It does get sketchy at 1,400 yards, but I have made hits at 1,500. I have no problem shooting the 1,200, but beyond that my hits are unpredictable. So, if 1,200 is your longest shot, 6.5C is in the hunt. Beyond 1,200, I would go a different route. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2024 1:21:01 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By barrysuperhawk: Ok, now we are getting somewhere. I pretty much knew .308 probably wasn't the sauce. If 6.5 is marginal, then am I looking at one of the 15 varieties of 6mm? If I am getting a new rifle, I want to be able to shoot PRS/NRL with it in addition to passing the qualification, so which offers the best combination of attributes? The bigger the bullet diameter, the higher BCs it can carry. For instance, high BC 6mms are in the .500s, while high BC 6.5mm are in the .600s. For this purpose you’d probably want the highest BC bullet you can find. The reason so many pros shoot 6mms is the reduced recoil that allows them to self spot better, which it sounds like shouldn’t be a factor for you. 1200 is also not a super common PRS distance. You could try building out an Aero Solus in 6.5CM. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 1:25:58 AM EDT
[#23]
Ruger Precision Rifle in 6.5 CM.
Strelok ballistics calculator. 147 gr ammo Good enough scope so you can see just where you are impacting on steel early on and adjust. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2024 1:39:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Millennial]
[#24]
Wait, they want you to put a cold bore shot within 2MOA at 1200 yards as a prerequisite to be able to shoot at the 1200 yards range, when you've never shot at that range? That sounds fuddtastically retarded... that sounds like asking someone to pass the final exam for a class as a prerequisite to taking the class. Anyways,
Chronograph to measure your ACTUAL muzzle velocity. 4DOF app paired with an appropriate bluetooth ketstrel. Off the shelf 7mm PRC Bergara; glass bed it at home. Get a good zero and something like 4DOF (free) or AB (not free) will be able to put you on target or within a few clicks well past 600+ yards if you do your part and input accurate data; rifle, round, and atmospherics. Sure a 6.5CM can do it and a 6.5 PRC can do it with a little less wind/drop. But 7PRC should be like hitting the easy-button at 1000 if you do your part... the 175gr ELD-X at 1200yd is still pushing 1600fps and 1000FPE, both the ELD-X and ELD-M are supersonic well past a mile from a 24" test barrel, and the ELD-M is super past 2KM. The Bergara's are chambered nominally to the Hornady ELD-M factory load too, so you really don't even have to work up a load to find something that it'll shoot well if you want to stick to buying everything off the shelf. Do it... go magnum... you're talking about getting a new rifle anyways... and you know you like the Bergaras already...
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OH, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2024 1:54:23 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Just to clarify a bit I don't think a standard Remage will work with the Bergara guns. They need additional work which is why the one in that link says modified for a Bergara. I remember some discussions on Snipershide about it. I just bring it up in case someone starts looking at other Remage barrels. Not that big of a deal if you have access to a lathe, reamers and gages... the bergara's just have a coned bolt head, so you've just got to add the cone taper. it makes standard remage barrels not compatible, but it's just one extra step to remedy. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 2:20:50 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Millennial: Wait, they want you to put a cold bore shot within 2MOA at 1200 yards as a prerequisite to be able to shoot at the 1200 yards range, when you've never shot at that range? That sounds fuddtastically retarded... that sounds like asking someone to pass the final exam for a class as a prerequisite to taking the class. Anyways, Chronograph to measure your ACTUAL muzzle velocity. 4DOF app paired with an appropriate bluetooth ketstrel. Off the shelf 7mm PRC Bergara; glass bed it at home. Get a good zero and something like 4DOF (free) or AB (not free) will be able to put you on target or within a few clicks well past 600+ yards if you do your part and input accurate data; rifle, round, and atmospherics. Sure a 6.5CM can do it and a 6.5 PRC can do it with a little less wind/drop. But 7PRC should be like hitting the easy-button at 1000 if you do your part... the 175gr ELD-X at 1200yd is still pushing 1600fps and 1000FPE, both the ELD-X and ELD-M are supersonic well past a mile from a 24" test barrel, and the ELD-M is super past 2KM. The Bergara's are chambered nominally to the Hornady ELD-M factory load too, so you really don't even have to work up a load to find something that it'll shoot well if you want to stick to buying everything off the shelf. Do it... go magnum... you're talking about getting a new rifle anyways... and you know you like the Bergaras already... They'll start with a demonstrated good zero at 600 yards, then move to the targets on the big range. I see several backstops that aren't shown in the old photo I posted, and I expect the class will start at the 800 yard target then move out. Elevation ain't the issue, it's shooting across a creek bottom with three hollows adjacent and interesting breezes. The range points into the prevailing wind, too. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2024 2:23:54 AM EDT
[#27]
Show up a few hours earlier and set up a few streamers to gage wind.
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Posted: 1/17/2024 9:42:09 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By barrysuperhawk: Ok, now we are getting somewhere. I pretty much knew .308 probably wasn't the sauce. If 6.5 is marginal, then am I looking at one of the 15 varieties of 6mm? If I am getting a new rifle, I want to be able to shoot PRS/NRL with it in addition to passing the qualification, so which offers the best combination of attributes? No that's getting no where. You can hit reliably with a .308 at 1200 yards with the right bullet. Use a good bullet and transonic is nothing and the BC will help keep you in the wind call. There are bullets in the .540+ range now for a .308 like a 178 ELD and it will make 1200. That said the 6.5 Creedmoor is easily a 1200 yard cartridge and will be better in the wind, which is what is the major issue at those ranges. If you can't hit reliably with a 6.5 Creedmoor at 1200 yards then you need some training. The 140+ weight bullets with .640+ BCs can make it easily. I am working on a load now with the 153 ATips which have a .704 BC. 1200 yards is a cake walk. Now a 6mm bullet sounds good as most use them in PRS but they use them because of light recoil and not their long range ability as there really aren't a lot of shots over 1000-1200 in PRS and a majority in the 800 and less. The bullets used do have lower BCs compared to the 6.5s. You need to use the 110+ weight bullets to get near that. If you want a PRS/1200 yard reliable round then get the 6.5 Creedmoor and load bullets appropriately. As to the Bergara and Remington prefits, it's more than a reamer but the bolt face to barrel. The Bergara has a different shaped bolt face that is more conical so you can't fit a 700 prefit for it without some machine work to the barrel itself. Below is the Bergara bolt face I found in a search and you can see how it differs from the 700.  700 bolt face  |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 3:03:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AeroE]
[#29]
A satellite photo of the 1200 yard range. The shooting positions are in the trees at the right hand end. The back stop for the 600 yard range is visible at the left side.
 Terrain -  |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 9:10:10 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: No that's getting no where. You can hit reliably with a .308 at 1200 yards with the right bullet. Use a good bullet and transonic is nothing and the BC will help keep you in the wind call. There are bullets in the .540+ range now for a .308 like a 178 ELD and it will make 1200. That said the 6.5 Creedmoor is easily a 1200 yard cartridge and will be better in the wind, which is what is the major issue at those ranges. If you can't hit reliably with a 6.5 Creedmoor at 1200 yards then you need some training. The 140+ weight bullets with .640+ BCs can make it easily. I am working on a load now with the 153 ATips which have a .704 BC. 1200 yards is a cake walk. Now a 6mm bullet sounds good as most use them in PRS but they use them because of light recoil and not their long range ability as there really aren't a lot of shots over 1000-1200 in PRS and a majority in the 800 and less. The bullets used do have lower BCs compared to the 6.5s. You need to use the 110+ weight bullets to get near that. If you want a PRS/1200 yard reliable round then get the 6.5 Creedmoor and load bullets appropriately. As to the Bergara and Remington prefits, it's more than a reamer but the bolt face to barrel. The Bergara has a different shaped bolt face that is more conical so you can't fit a 700 prefit for it without some machine work to the barrel itself. Below is the Bergara bolt face I found in a search and you can see how it differs from the 700. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/19859/IMG_8209-582x450-3097506.jpg 700 bolt face https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/19859/10_closeup_of_the_bolt-3097508.jpg Sorry…”1200yds with a .308” and ”reliably” aren’t going in the same sentence. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 9:13:16 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cms81586: Sorry…”1200yds with a .308” and ”reliably” aren’t going in the same sentence. They do when you set the .308 up right and shoot the right bullets. Not talking 16" barrels and 168 SMKs of 20 years ago. But you can believe what you like. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:34:27 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: They do when you set the .308 up right and shoot the right bullets. Not talking 16" barrels and 168 SMKs of 20 years ago. But you can believe what you like. I’ve tried Berger 185 juggernauts and 178 Hornady’s extensively out of 24” and 26” barrels. Can you make hits? Absolutely. But it’s not the right tool for the job. Shoehorning a heavy, higher BC .30 cal bullet into a .308 isn’t the answer if you’re consistently shooting at 1200+ yds. |
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Posted: 1/17/2024 10:44:17 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cms81586: I’ve tried Berger 185 juggernauts and 178 Hornady’s extensively out of 24” and 26” barrels. Can you make hits? Absolutely. But it’s not the right tool for the job. Shoehorning a heavy, higher BC .30 cal bullet into a .308 isn’t the answer if you’re consistently shooting at 1200+ yds. Hitting is the job. Does it take more skill in the wind call with a .308? Hell yeah it does but they will make it no problem to 1200 yards. I don't shoot anything over 178grn in my .308. Will a 6.5 Creedmoor make it easier in the wind? Yup. So if he wants a 6.5 then go for it also. |
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USA
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Posted: 1/21/2024 3:00:43 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: Hitting is the job. Does it take more skill in the wind call with a .308? Hell yeah it does but they will make it no problem to 1200 yards. I don't shoot anything over 178grn in my .308. Will a 6.5 Creedmoor make it easier in the wind? Yup. So if he wants a 6.5 then go for it also. And then the penguin posted this: https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/01/21/wyoming-loves-the-6-5-creedmoor-even-if-its-the-nickelback-of-rifle-cartridges/ and I found this on a youtube channel I follow:  6.5 NEEDS-MORE | Out of the box results I'm not a hunter, and I will never knowingly shoot this at another living thing ('cept flies on the target), so I am only concerned with accuracy at range. I just don't want to commit to something and then later decide that this other rifle or different caliber would have been better or worse yet, if I chose poorly...
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Posted: 1/21/2024 3:33:49 PM EDT
[#35]
First anyone who calls the Creedmoor the Needmore just lost all respect in my book as they are obviously searching for clicks from haters.
If you want a 6.5 Creedmoor then get one. I have had at least one in the safe since 2008 and always will. It’s a great cartridge. I will say the same thing of the .308 as I will always have one in the safe also. You will not be let down by the Creedmoor for long range shooting. |
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Posted: 1/22/2024 9:33:04 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rob01: First, stick with a bolt gun if going long and not a very good shooter. Semi auto rifles take more skill to hit targets at distance. Second, the .308 can hit 1200 easily with the right bullet. [/img] First sentence... I agree. Second sentence, I'd not use the word "easily". We will just have to disagree on that one when it comes to the .308 at 1200 yards. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2024 10:14:42 AM EDT
[#37]
OP:
After all this back and forth.......... aerial photos and everything............... What happened? What did you decide to do and how'd it go? |
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Posted: 1/30/2024 12:58:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AeroE]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGH456E: OP: After all this back and forth.......... aerial photos and everything............... What happened? What did you decide to do and how'd it go? barrysuperhawk will need to complete the RSO class, a mid range class and shoot to 600 yards, then complete the long range class and shoot. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 2/1/2024 12:04:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TGH456E]
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: barrysuperhawk will need to complete the RSO class, a mid range class and shoot to 600 yards, then complete the long range class and shoot. If you mind me asking.............. what is the purpose of all this? What I mean is the range surrounded by houses or something that requires such a strict approach to shooting these longer ranges? The owners are nervous about........... what? Is the Safety Fan in question? But an errant shot is an errant shot whether I'm aiming at the 600yd target or 1200. And any ricochet will go god-knows-where........... and looking at those berms ............... you have ricochets............... no doubt. |
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Posted: 2/1/2024 10:32:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: AeroE]
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGH456E: If you mind me asking.............. what is the purpose of all this? What I mean is the range surrounded by houses or something that requires such a strict approach to shooting these longer ranges? The owners are nervous about........... what? Is the Safety Fan in question? But an errant shot is an errant shot whether I'm aiming at the 600yd target or 1200. And any ricochet will go god-knows-where........... and looking at those berms ............... you have ricochets............... no doubt. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGH456E: Originally Posted By AeroE: barrysuperhawk will need to complete the RSO class, a mid range class and shoot to 600 yards, then complete the long range class and shoot. If you mind me asking.............. what is the purpose of all this? What I mean is the range surrounded by houses or something that requires such a strict approach to shooting these longer ranges? The owners are nervous about........... what? Is the Safety Fan in question? But an errant shot is an errant shot whether I'm aiming at the 600yd target or 1200. And any ricochet will go god-knows-where........... and looking at those berms ............... you have ricochets............... no doubt. It's complicated, part of the motivation is bullets escaping the range. There is a house to the top in the photo that is downstream from the 600 yard range that has had bullet strikes and bullets falling in the trees. The shooting classes are required because many members have demonstrated that they can't shoot farther than 200 yards. Some of the stories with examples from the old qualification days (before classes) would be hilarious if they weren't pitiful. Take a stroll through the club's web site - https://www.shootingstl.com |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 2/5/2024 10:40:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TGH456E]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: It's complicated, part of the motivation is bullets escaping the range. There is a house to the top in the photo that is downstream from the 600 yard range that has had bullet strikes and bullets falling in the trees. The shooting classes are required because many members have demonstrated that they can't shoot farther than 200 yards. Some of the stories with examples from the old qualification days (before classes) would be hilarious if they weren't pitiful. Take a stroll through the club's web site - https://www.shootingstl.com Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By TGH456E: Originally Posted By AeroE: barrysuperhawk will need to complete the RSO class, a mid range class and shoot to 600 yards, then complete the long range class and shoot. If you mind me asking.............. what is the purpose of all this? What I mean is the range surrounded by houses or something that requires such a strict approach to shooting these longer ranges? The owners are nervous about........... what? Is the Safety Fan in question? But an errant shot is an errant shot whether I'm aiming at the 600yd target or 1200. And any ricochet will go god-knows-where........... and looking at those berms ............... you have ricochets............... no doubt. It's complicated, part of the motivation is bullets escaping the range. There is a house to the top in the photo that is downstream from the 600 yard range that has had bullet strikes and bullets falling in the trees. The shooting classes are required because many members have demonstrated that they can't shoot farther than 200 yards. Some of the stories with examples from the old qualification days (before classes) would be hilarious if they weren't pitiful. Take a stroll through the club's web site - https://www.shootingstl.com Ok, Thanks. I was just curious. Amazingly I feel spoiled with the ranges here in Colorado (A very Blue State BTW ;( ) ............... |
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Posted: 2/5/2024 2:10:33 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGH456E: Ok, Thanks. I was just curious. Amazingly I feel spoiled with the ranges here in Colorado (A very Blue State BTW ;( ) ............... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGH456E: Originally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By TGH456E: Originally Posted By AeroE: barrysuperhawk will need to complete the RSO class, a mid range class and shoot to 600 yards, then complete the long range class and shoot. If you mind me asking.............. what is the purpose of all this? What I mean is the range surrounded by houses or something that requires such a strict approach to shooting these longer ranges? The owners are nervous about........... what? Is the Safety Fan in question? But an errant shot is an errant shot whether I'm aiming at the 600yd target or 1200. And any ricochet will go god-knows-where........... and looking at those berms ............... you have ricochets............... no doubt. It's complicated, part of the motivation is bullets escaping the range. There is a house to the top in the photo that is downstream from the 600 yard range that has had bullet strikes and bullets falling in the trees. The shooting classes are required because many members have demonstrated that they can't shoot farther than 200 yards. Some of the stories with examples from the old qualification days (before classes) would be hilarious if they weren't pitiful. Take a stroll through the club's web site - https://www.shootingstl.com Ok, Thanks. I was just curious. Amazingly I feel spoiled with the ranges here in Colorado (A very Blue State BTW ;( ) ............... This has nothing to do with the state, it's about club governance. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 2/6/2024 7:29:21 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: This has nothing to do with the state, it's about club governance. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By TGH456E: Originally Posted By AeroE: Originally Posted By TGH456E: Originally Posted By AeroE: barrysuperhawk will need to complete the RSO class, a mid range class and shoot to 600 yards, then complete the long range class and shoot. If you mind me asking.............. what is the purpose of all this? What I mean is the range surrounded by houses or something that requires such a strict approach to shooting these longer ranges? The owners are nervous about........... what? Is the Safety Fan in question? But an errant shot is an errant shot whether I'm aiming at the 600yd target or 1200. And any ricochet will go god-knows-where........... and looking at those berms ............... you have ricochets............... no doubt. It's complicated, part of the motivation is bullets escaping the range. There is a house to the top in the photo that is downstream from the 600 yard range that has had bullet strikes and bullets falling in the trees. The shooting classes are required because many members have demonstrated that they can't shoot farther than 200 yards. Some of the stories with examples from the old qualification days (before classes) would be hilarious if they weren't pitiful. Take a stroll through the club's web site - https://www.shootingstl.com Ok, Thanks. I was just curious. Amazingly I feel spoiled with the ranges here in Colorado (A very Blue State BTW ;( ) ............... This has nothing to do with the state, it's about club governance. I'm sorry if I seemed to connect the State to your issue. I realize this "is a club thing." Again, you don't have answer, it's my curiosity............ The house is owned by the Club????? Either way.......... it sounds like you need to "shift fire," your safety fan isn't good enough to allow that range. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/13/2024 8:12:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: barrysuperhawk]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: It's complicated, part of the motivation is bullets escaping the range. There is a house to the top in the photo that is downstream from the 600 yard range that has had bullet strikes and bullets falling in the trees. The shooting classes are required because many members have demonstrated that they can't shoot farther than 200 yards. Some of the stories with examples from the old qualification days (before classes) would be hilarious if they weren't pitiful. Take a stroll through the club's web site - https://www.shootingstl.com Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroE: It's complicated, part of the motivation is bullets escaping the range. There is a house to the top in the photo that is downstream from the 600 yard range that has had bullet strikes and bullets falling in the trees. The shooting classes are required because many members have demonstrated that they can't shoot farther than 200 yards. Some of the stories with examples from the old qualification days (before classes) would be hilarious if they weren't pitiful. Take a stroll through the club's web site - https://www.shootingstl.com Sorry, I have been sick and not really doing anything toward this end, my bad. Yes, everything @AeroE is 100% true and IMHO more. I was trying not to be real specific about this to avoid the questioning, because it really does not matter, it's the club rules, and if I want to be part of the club, I will follow the rules, end of story. If they make a rule that I have to wear a yellow t-shirt to the range, I will be buying and wearing yellow t-shirts. So, yes, there are several steps, trainings, etc. that I will have to complete to be eligible to use the 1200 yard range, most of which are not germane to *this* discussion. What *is* relevant to this discussion, however is my choice of equipment. So, as far as .308 goes, it seems like the concensus is that it may not have enough oomph to make it to 1200 reliably and within the accuracy standard as stated compared with other cartridges'. Actually, mathematically it looks like I might either need to get more MOA in my rail or my scope to be able to make that shot unless I switch to something like 155's, and then I lose wind stability. I am OK with that, I have fired more .308's in my shooting career than any other caliber, and out to 600 I will take the Pepsi Challenge with anyone, so the .308's aren't going anywhere. The obvious, cheapest, and most plentiful choice for replacement is the 6.5 Needsmoor (I only do that to annoy, lol). I went to a LGS and there were probably a hundred 6.5 Creedbored rifles there from almost every manufacturer I have ever heard of, and they had tons of factory ammo and handloading components available. The guy at the range that was telling me about the qualification (and, I think that teaches the class) mentioned that caliber specifically also. And then there are the descriptions online: Compared to the 308Win cartridge, the 6.5 CM offers about 20% more performance in terms of both bullet drop and wind resistance. At the same time, the recoil is reduced by about 30%  6.5 Creedmoor at 2000yards (MDT ESS Chassis) ELR rifle build Video 6 I mean he was having to aim using the ragged bottom edge of his reticle, but he DID hit the target... And then I saw some rifles in 6.5 PRC. ...and I started questioning again  Its performance beyond 1,000 yards outshines the 6.5 Creedmoor, yet the PRC doesn’t produce stinging recoil. 6.5 PRC is more expensive in almost every respect, but gets me less drop at range while shooting the same awesome high BC bullets. What this gets me is the ability to use a shorter, handier rifle and still get better ballistics. So, I am thinking of a 2 pronged approach. I am pretty sure I have enough parts to put together a 6.5 Creedmoor AR10 pattern upper (without having to buy anything other than dies) and see how that shoots, and plan on buying a 6.5 PRC rifle if I find a deal on one. Speaking of deal, I found a pretty nice deal on a Savage Arms 110 Ultralite Black/Gray Bolt Action Rifle - 6.5 PRC - 24in, so I may be starting with the PRC assuming I can find a chassis for it with a nice soft recoil pad...lol |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 11:26:38 PM EDT
[#45]
Really need to decide what you’re looking for. Do you want a good general purpose rifle that CAN make it to 1200yds now and then reliably…or do you want a 1200yd rifle. Another option since you already have a .308 is to buy or build a .300WM. Those .30 cal projectiles aren’t too expensive and you can say for under 800yds you use the .308….over 800yds use the .300WM. Thats what I did…I just chose .338LM instead. But that’s a whole another ball of wax. A box of factory ammo runs $130 for 20 rounds and reloads are cheaper but by no means cheap.
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USA
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Posted: 2/17/2024 12:52:23 AM EDT
[#46]
Yeah, well, thats why I am leaning toward 2 rifles, er, calibers. The 6.5 creedmoor as kind of an incremental increase on my .308, that I can probably get to 1200 without too much trouble or expense. The 6.5 PRC would be for actual PRS, etc. matches. I could skip the Creedmoor for the PRC, but like I said I already have a large chunk of whats required to assemble an AR10 style upper, so me ammo and brass, so is truly the low effort choice.
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Posted: 2/17/2024 1:21:15 AM EDT
[#47]
Seems like nobody uses the 6.5 PRC in PRS matches. Don't know if it's because of the mag capacity you lose or cost. Seems like it's primary use is hunting. I'd say the Creedmoor's advantage at 1200 yards is a bit more than marginal. 5-600 marginal might be more accurate but over 1000 yards I think it's a solid step up looking at the numbers.
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Posted: 2/17/2024 10:13:47 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By barrysuperhawk: Yeah, well, thats why I am leaning toward 2 rifles, er, calibers. The 6.5 creedmoor as kind of an incremental increase on my .308, that I can probably get to 1200 without too much trouble or expense. The 6.5 PRC would be for actual PRS, etc. matches. I could skip the Creedmoor for the PRC, but like I said I already have a large chunk of whats required to assemble an AR10 style upper, so me ammo and brass, so is truly the low effort choice. The 6.5 PRC is a bad idea for PRS. More recoil than you want or need and not to mention shorter barrel life and ammo costs. Stick with the 6.5 Creedmoor for both PRS and fun to 1200 yards. It will do both just fine. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/19/2024 6:35:38 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Seems like nobody uses the 6.5 PRC in PRS matches. Don't know if it's because of the mag capacity you lose or cost. Seems like it's primary use is hunting. I'd say the Creedmoor's advantage at 1200 yards is a bit more than marginal. 5-600 marginal might be more accurate but over 1000 yards I think it's a solid step up looking at the numbers. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ALASKANFIRE: Seems like nobody uses the 6.5 PRC in PRS matches. Don't know if it's because of the mag capacity you lose or cost. Seems like it's primary use is hunting. I'd say the Creedmoor's advantage at 1200 yards is a bit more than marginal. 5-600 marginal might be more accurate but over 1000 yards I think it's a solid step up looking at the numbers. Originally Posted By Rob01: The 6.5 PRC is a bad idea for PRS. More recoil than you want or need and not to mention shorter barrel life and ammo costs. Stick with the 6.5 Creedmoor for both PRS and fun to 1200 yards. It will do both just fine. See this is why I love discussions like this compared to just "researching" on the internet. According to the internet and youtube, 6.5 prc is the flattest, most accurate round ever. |
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Posted: 2/19/2024 8:22:29 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By barrysuperhawk: See this is why I love discussions like this compared to just "researching" on the internet. According to the internet and youtube, 6.5 prc is the flattest, most accurate round ever. It may be flatter shooting but it’s also larger with more recoil. A lot of cartridges are flatter shooting than most used in PRS matches but they aren’t used in matches for a bunch of reasons and recoil being a big one with barrel life coming in second. 
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