Ok so my SHTF gun is suppressed palmetto state 16" with an ACOG. It has the donut of death reticle

My SPR is an older rainier arms upper / lower with the older select stainless 1:8 twist
It has a vortex PST viper 2.5-10 with a really thin EBR-1 reticle that I have a hard time seeing. mounted with a larue spr 1.5

my typical groups with my palmetto and what ever 55gr I have (always under 2")

Attached File



My SPR with whatever 55 gr scope at 5x
Attached File


at 10x using AAC 77gr
Attached File

at 5x using AAC 77gr
Attached File


my spr
Attached File


I have a cheaper strike eagle 1-8 that I can see the reticle way better. Am I just not a thin reticle shooter?


I referenced myself and my .308 bolt gun I can shill shoot 1/4 in 3 shot groups and not much bigger 5. with gold cup match at 100.

is 1.5 inch expected for AAC 77?
I guess I was expecting more out of my SPR and bigger glass. Is that older select barrel not as good as the news ones?

I'm never going to probably shoot past 500 yards so stick with Acog or LPVO? my range is just over 400 and If I get creative I can do 500.

It might just be as simple as a barrel ammo combo that doesn't work.
I would try some different ammo and see if it tightens up.
There's a couple of my barrels that don't like certain reloads and other barrels work great with that load.

See if you can find some 68 or 69 gr match loads as another data point.  Could just be a load that barrel doesn't like.

The USMC’s requirement for a semi-auto precision rifle was less than 2 MOA, which equates to the ability to theoretically hit a head at approximately 500-550 yards.

this make me feel better that I can achieve with regular ammo




thanks I find some old post someplace with my barrel and someone mentioned something in the 60's
I'll have to look for some match loads and try it out.

may try that. My nephew reloads maybe he can make me some loads

Rainier barrels are extremely hit or miss and not what I would consider a quality barrel, so it’s no surprise that it’s shoot about the same as your PSA with a similar quality barrel.

Put a Proof, CLE, Craddock, or other quality barrel on it if you want quality results.

1.  Ball ammo isn't that accurate.

2.  100 yards isn't that far.  Sometimes bullets settle down after a few hundred yards and you see more disparity.


But, ball ammo sucks.

As soon as I read Rainer I said there it is.

Like mentioned, may just be the barrel/ammo pairings but that’s not a match grade barrel sadly.

Find the ammo it likes.  "whatever 55gr" usually translates to "garbage range fodder".  2MOA is unsurprising.  AAC 77gr isn't some benchmark load either.  It's OK, and some guns shoot it really well and others shoot it OK.  Yours shoots it OK.  Those results are just fine. Feed it some Hornady ELDM/ELDX/match or FGMM or black hills match... or some other known quantity.  And to be honest, 1.5MOA is pretty good practical accuracy for a <500yd gun and budget oriented factory ammo.

I've got a 6.5CM with a craddock barrel that shoots S&B 140gr 2-3MOA at best, Hornady Amax Match right around ~1MOA, and then literally shoot sub 3/4MOA like clockwork with bulk pack American Gunner 140gr.  Then I feed that same S&B to a Bergara with it's factory barrel that I have and it shoots lights out while shooting the american gunner stuff merely OK (1.5MOA).  I don't handload so I dont get to question it, I just go with it.

At the range this past weekend, I watched some guy next to me hitting steel at 700 with a 1-8x and a 18" RECCE/SPR suppressed type setup and 55gr M193.  I got on it, he told me the holds, and I hit 700 the first shot.

Assuming no issues with shot execution you just need a high quality barrel.

If you want an AR that shoots MOA or better without having to win the barrel lottery you need to get one made for that.
That means a barrel from a company that hangs its reputation on barrel accuracy, not one from consumer-tier companies slapping the label “match-grade” on their random no-name heavy barrel.

Criterion would be the lowest I’d go for an accuracy build.
White Oak has a wide range of basic-accurate to Uber-accurate depending on budget
Compass Lake Engineering similar to WOA in that regard.

It can be off-putting to pay an extra $100-200 for these premium barrels but they produce sub-moa ARs every time, so if that’s what a guy wants that’s what a guy needs to buy.

And I echo the sentiments about 55gr fmj. My competition rifle shoots slightly under 1/2moa with smk handloads. It shoots about 1.5moa with bulk 55gr. So IMHO, whatever a rifle is capable of, expect bulk 55gr to add a full 1MOA on top of that. 1moa rifle? Expect 2moa from that crap.

Their match and Ultramatch barrels should shoot SubMOA. While not a Bartlein or Krieger, most shooters can’t outshoot a .75-1.0 moa capable barrel.


Their Ultramatch barrels are actually chambered by one of the companies on your list!

Should shoot MOA and do shoot MOA are completely different. Myself and plenty of others have bought Rainier barrels that shot like hot garbage. It’s pretty well established at this point that their barrels are hit or miss. I have never had an issue getting great accuracy out of great barrels.

What model of Rainier barrels were you using? The cheaper versions don’t have the same blanks as the match and Ultramatch.

That makes sense if you’ve had bad luck in the past. I’ve got 7+ of the match or Ultramatch and haven’t ever had one that didn’t shoot sub moa. My 2 224Valkyrie, the cartridge that everyone struggled with, shoot amazing.

My last match barrel, which was pretty cheap, averaged <0.8 moa with IMI iirc.

If someone is just looking for a 1moa barrel, they certainly don’t have to pay a premium to get there. I say that having Proof and Bartlein barrels on some gas guns and only Bartlein, Proof or Krieger barrels on my bolt guns.

SPR wasn’t meant to be sub MOA but rather a system that can hold a 1.6-2 MOA accuracy without degradation out to 600m … SPRs also used Mk262 ammo …

Rainier also used BA barrels which are a hit and miss as well …

I had a Rainier Match 18" SPR barrel that was a laser. I regrettably sold that upper about 6 years ago then got the SPR itch again in 2020. I built a new upper with a BA 18" Stainless match SPR barrel and it's been kinda "meh" in comparison to the Rainier I had years back. My non-floated SOCOM barreled upper is nearly on parity for accuracy performance.

ETA: @thehun06 I think back when I got the Rainier barrel (2014-15 timeframe) they were advertising that they were using Shillen blanks, not sure if that just meant BA was turning them. And like I said that barrel was a real performer, esp. w/ Mk262. But yeah BA is hit or miss.

The original barrel as well as the replacement that also shot poorly were match barrels.

You can do a 5 minute google search and you will pull up plenty of results where people have had bad results from their match and ultra match barrels. I’m glad you have had good results with yours but mine were absolute turds and I’d never buy another. My worst BA barrel shot better than the Rainier and I’ll never buy another one of those either.

5 to 10 round groups would give you a lot better data.

Went to google…lots of positive reviews. Not saying they don’t have bad barrels that get shipped, but it seems like it’s far more hit than it is miss. This is especially true if you’re going with an Ultramatch.


OP, I’d check the gas tube to make sure it wasn’t binding with my carrier gas key if that was my build.

Three shots is not a group. Ten shots is a better indicator of actual accuracy potential of any load.

Your bench looks unstable.

I have never been able to shoot with a bipod as well as I can off bags.

Every barrel is different, some need specific loads to shoot well, some shoot everything pretty well and some simply are frustrating.

Bench technique is harder than most people think. I make sure the rifle sits in the bag (Uncle Bud's Bull Bag) perfectly aligned on target before shooting. I use a Protektor rabbit eared bag in the rear. I use shim stock (rubber sheets) to raise or lower the bags to obtain perfect alignment for each shot. I control my breathing so that each shot is consistent and keep the trigger pulled to the rear (follow through) after the round has fired.

I usually shoot 1 moa or better using match grade ammo. FMJ's suck, always have and always will. Hornady seems to make the best FMJ's for the bulk reloader, mostly because they shoot acceptably well and are inexpensive. I have never tried Sierra's FMJ's, but I expect they are probably better. The Sierra's cost almost double that of Hornady's purchased in bulk.

At 100 yards my smallest groups have always been fired with 52/53 grain match bullets, regardless of twist rates. 1/7 twist barrels shoot them lights out.

thanks lots of great info from everyone here

more excuses for me to shoot more

I would not trust the AAC ammunition to shoot accurately.

Get some Federal Gold Medal Match or Norma Match. Both of those have a solid track record in my experience.

Next check your optic and mount to make sure everything is tight. You should be able to attach the scope fully pushed forward in the rail slot, put the butt stock on the ground and put your weight down on the optic. If the mount slides rearward it is not attached to your rail properly.

Shoot larger groups. I would do five shots minimum, ten is better. Make sure to go slow and don't overheat your barrel.

You need a very stable platform for accuracy testing and to tell whether you have a hardware problem or not. A concrete bench is good. You can always go prone on bags if needed. I have a Caldwell bag I like pretty well. It's about a foot long and has a grippy material that sticks to your table on the bottom and the sides of your rifle on the top. Make sure you also have a good rear bag.

Ok today I went shooting again and have a few corrections

the first time I was shooting with AAC 75 grain not the 77 grain
So I bought a mix of both I guess

I tried the 77 grain and had better results. I was shooting steel most of the time and the last 8 rounds I shot paper once I realized I had mixed boxes.

my 5 shot group (sorry about the .308 mixed in as I took a 3 shot with my ruger scout too)
Attached File

My scout with Serbian match .308
Attached File

last 3 rounds (thought I had more)
Attached File


I do need to try some FGCM or something, But I'm happier. I shot again off my portable bench, bipod, and smaller rear bag this time.
Last time I had the bigger bag. I like the smaller bag better. I think I like the 77gr more than the 75gr. Not sure how I didn't notice the two colored boxes.

I need to get some better ammo and go prone or a more solid shooting platform next.

The AAC 77 (smk or otm) have proved to be precise in my experience. I’ve ordered several times and thus have used several lots. It’s averaged under 0.8moa iirc in several of my AR’s, and has been closer to half moa in my bolt guns.

The 75gr hpbt hasn’t been as consistent, but that’s been my previous experience with the similarly shaped Hornady 75gr hpbt. The 69/77smk profile just seems more tolerant in the barrels I’ve used.

I dont know crap about presision shooting but here goes anyway. I have some cheap barrels that shoot suprisingly well. A Faxon 6.5 Grendel that shoot Hornady about .75 and a Rainier match that shoots AAC 77gr about the same.

But i found they both needed time to settle in or maybe it was me getting used to the rifle? Also some ammo is easily 1.5 moa out of each rifle. So these barrels "can shoot good". But dont "always shoot GREAT". They have ammo they like. But with that ammo they are consistent once i worked on my shooting.

I also found the AR harder for me to shoot as well as a bolt gun. I dont know why but that was just me. Maybe ergonomics, trigger or rushing shots with a semi vs bolt.

But for refrance my Tikka T3x with cheap AAC 140gr is sub .75 ( had one a .4" 5 shot group) out of the box with a 10x scope. Shot multiple 1.2" groups at 200 yards with multiple brands ammo. It still lile some ammo better than others but is just easy to shoot very respectable groups for me. I am very happy it shoots my cheap practice AAC ammo so well. But slightly frustrated that premiom hunting ammo is slightly less accurate at 100 yards.

Mostly try some different ammo and really work on taking your time working on form. If your rifle will shoot .25 moa, it still wont do it if the shooter isnt doing everything right. I also found that thick reticles and some target designs make it much harder to aim in the exact same point repeatedly. Find what works for you.

My advice would be get a shooting mat, and get on the ground with bags. Even off a concrete bench, I wouldn't consider sitting accurate enough for a zero or load development.

I generally shoot off a bipod, but I find off a bench the bipod is no bueno (bounces). On the ground, it's fine, but still better to use bags for zero.

Any decent barrel should be able to put 5 into a ragged hole if you do your part, but as mentioned, 10 is a much better indicator. But after a few they should be going through the existing hole.

At the end of the day, you'll be most accurate with the rifle you're most comfortable with.