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Posted: 5/10/2023 5:33:09 AM EDT
I have a lot of experience shooting but haven't been in the field much in the past 15 years, due to health. My wife has very little experience with firearms. Both of us are completely and utterly new to the AR platform. We now have four ARs. We are enrolled on four AR courses, for a total of 16 hours of instruction and guided range time.
When we signed up for the training, the course requirement said "Iron-sights only." Last week, they changed that to "An AR-15 with iron sights is preferred. Optics are optional." I have optics for mine and we will have optics for the wife's before the class. I am of the opinion that we are both better off taking the class with iron sights than with optics. My wife would certainly benefit from the training and practice with iron sights and it wouldn't hurt me either. And I think it will be better if we have the same experience in class so we can help each other out more when we practice. We also plan to practice with iron sights regularly too, since we'll have them on our rifles for backups. I'd like to hold off on using optics until we both gain at least a basic level of proficiency and accuracy with iron sights. But ... I also know we don't know what we're doing and there's no reason I should rely on my own ignorance when there's so much great knowledge and skill here. What do you think? We'll be using 16" barrel 5.56 carbines/rifles in the classes. Are we better off learning to shoot with iron sights first before moving to optics or should we jump in with both feet with my red dot and magnifier and the prism scope we plan to get for her in the next couple of weeks? I'm heading to my club later today to have an armorer inspect three of our our new ARs. I'll then test-fire them and sight in the iron sights on the two we will be using in class. I'm going to use Jeff Proctor's 50-yard zero at 10 yards method so I can sight them at my indoor range. If you have any comments about that or suggestions for a better way to go, I'm all ears. Thanks for the help!  What Zero do you use? Frank Proctor uses a 50 Zero at 10 yards, check it out! |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 5:42:58 AM EDT
[#1]
If someone was giving a carbine course and stating "iron sights only" in 2023, it's probably a dumb course by a dumb instructor.
Get an AR. If you have a dot, put the dot on. Go shoot. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 5:47:29 AM EDT
[#2]
My personal opinion is that if technology makes us a better shooter, we should use it.
I can understand instructors not wanting to have to teach new shooters about turret adjustment, milrad reticles, eye relief, parallax, and other things necessary for telescopic sights. But a simple reflex sight is easy, and is a huge improvement over iron sights - especially in a true defensive scenario. Once you learn the basics, you can move on to longer range precision shooting, and learn the proper use of a scope. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 5:51:54 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By brasscrossedrifles: If someone was giving a carbine course and stating "iron sights only" in 2023, it's probably a dumb course by a dumb instructor. Get an AR. If you have a dot, put the dot on. Go shoot. It was only a requirement for the first course and is now only preferred for the first course. For the other three courses, they recommend using optics you're going to use on the rifle. Why would it be a dumb course and instructor? Using iron sights seems like pretty solid foundational learning to me. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/10/2023 5:54:02 AM EDT
[#4]
Reminds me of the Fudds in charge of our LE certification.
It's a potential red flag. However, I started my Black Rifle Disease by shooting 1,000 rounds through iron sights. Helped me learn a lot about the AR. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 5:56:29 AM EDT
[#5]
Good on you for seeking professional training. Even a basic course will put you in the top 1% of AR owners.
Looking forward to you After Action Report. I have no idea why an instructor would prefer iron sights over red dots. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 6:00:17 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eracer: My personal opinion is that if technology makes us a better shooter, we should use it. I can understand instructors not wanting to have to teach new shooters about turret adjustment, milrad reticles, eye relief, parallax, and other things necessary for telescopic sights. But a simple reflex sight is easy, and is a huge improvement over iron sights - especially in a true defensive scenario. Once you learn the basics, you can move on to longer range precision shooting, and learn the proper use of a scope. Thanks for the feedback. Their preference for iron sights is only for the first four-hour course. When my wife puts 60 rounds down-range in the course, it will be the first 60 center-fire she's fired in her life. Starting with the second course, they recommend optics and there's a lot more shooting; 400 rounds in four hours. The third and fourth courses even more. I have a Sig Romeo MSD and Juliet magnifier combo fir my carbine and a Vortex Venom on my AR pistol. My wife will have a prism scope due to her eyes; we're trying to look at as many as possible to find the right magnification but there aren't many of them in the stores around here. We're utterly sold on the benefit of optics but also plan to have iron backups. Given this, would you still recommend we do the first course with optics? I'm not being defensive; I just want to make sure we get the most possible benefit from the training. It ain't cheap. 
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Posted: 5/10/2023 6:05:19 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mike_Golf: Reminds me of the Fudds in charge of our LE certification. It's a potential red flag. However, I started my Black Rifle Disease by shooting 1,000 rounds through iron sights. Helped me learn a lot about the AR. Black Rifle Disease. I like that. I blieve you about it being a red flag but I don't understand why. Could you help me out with that part, please? My thinking was mostly around my wife having zero experience with iron sights on a rifle and this being a chance to give her at least a little before moving on to optics. Just about the only thing I know about ARs with any certainty is how little I know. Thanks! |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 6:15:17 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rodent: Good on you for seeking professional training. Even a basic course will put you in the top 1% of AR owners. Looking forward to you After Action Report. I have no idea why an instructor would prefer iron sights over red dots. Thanks. I was an aviation instructor in the USN and place a lot of value in professional training. Especially when it comes to lethal stuff. We attended a handgun course at the same place not too long ago and it seemed rock-solid. They taught a lot of stuff from an "if-then" perspective rather than "do-it-this-way." I took that as a good sign. Well, time will tell. I'll be happy to post a detailed AAR and get feedback from the experts here. If there are more red flags, we should see about finding a better training provider. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 5/10/2023 6:33:02 AM EDT
[#9]
I teach A basic carbine class.
I don't require a specific sight however I do require them to be zeroed I do require people to follow directions. I'd rather people come there with no knowledge of anything than a bunch of opinions from here. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 6:55:34 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: ... would you still recommend we do the first course with optics? |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 7:04:00 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rodent: My favorite ARs don't even have iron sights. Fair enough. I'll bet you have more experience shooting an AR in the past month or two then both of us have combined, lifetime. 
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Posted: 5/10/2023 7:04:57 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OverScoped: I teach A basic carbine class. I don't require a specific sight however I do require them to be zeroed I do require people to follow directions. I'd rather people come there with no knowledge of anything than a bunch of opinions from here. Thank you. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 7:19:28 AM EDT
[#13]
Please have your rifles zeroed.
If possible I would have your wife at least shoot a couple mags from a bench, preferably without many others around. The first time shooting center fire might be a little shocking especially with a dozen others firing next to you at the same time while you try to shoot off hand. Also might help her to practice manipulating the bolt, bolt release, mag install and mag release, safety without ammo before going to live fire. Snap caps are handy for this. Before I attended my first class at which time I had only had an AR for a year I watched the Magpul training videos. The videos game me an good idea of what to expect and made me less nervous. Be sure you have good eye and ear pro, take plenty of water. Good luck. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 7:29:19 AM EDT
[#14]
Good for you getting the training!
The other side of the coin is shooting a match. Here in Florida we have the Florida Defensive Carbine Club - they run a two gun match - think AR and Pistol. Typicity shoot five stages - you will learn more about running your gear shooting one match than a year going to a flat range! I will say that maybe one or two out of 100 people at a match are running irons. Red dots and LPVO are the best! Red |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 7:30:22 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR_Dale: Please have your rifles zeroed. If possible I would have your wife at least shoot a couple mags from a bench, preferably without many others around. The first time shooting center fire might be a little shocking especially with a dozen others firing next to you at the same time while you try to shoot off hand. Also might help her to practice manipulating the bolt, bolt release, mag install and mag release, safety without ammo before going to live fire. Snap caps are handy for this. Before I attended my first class at which time I had only had an AR for a year I watched the Magpul training videos. The videos game me an good idea of what to expect and made me less nervous. Be sure you have good eye and ear pro, take plenty of water. Good luck. Thank you very much. Very useful info. I'm zeroing the rifles today. I hadn't planned to take her to the range before class but I will now. If I can talk her into taking teh day off, we can go in when they open and practically have the place to ourselves. We've been practicing function checks for a couple of weeks now, using polymer dummy cartridges. We replaced our ancient muffs with some modern electronic covers a couple of weeks and got some new inside the ear doo-dads too. They both worked great at our recent pistol class. My bifocals are safety glasses but we're struggling with something for the wide. I think we're going to have to bite the bullet and get her a pair of prescription safety/shooting glasses. Water ... check. I overlooked that. Thanks. Thanks for the tip on the Magpul videos. I'm on it. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 7:35:17 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By badredfish: Good for you getting the training! The other side of the coin is shooting a match. Here in Florida we have the Florida Defensive Carbine Club - they run a two gun match - think AR and Pistol. Typicity shoot five stages - you will learn more about running your gear shooting one match than a year going to a flat range! I will say that maybe one or two out of 100 people at a match are running irons. Red dots and LPVO are the best! Red That sounds like fun. I shot some low-level amateur combat pistol a gazillion years ago. I wasn't very good but I sure was a lot better shooter than I was before I started. If we do this course with iron sights, we'll put the optics back on shortly thereafter. After she put 20 rounds down-range out of a Sig M17 with a red dot on it ten days ago or so, the wife is solidly in favor of optics.
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VA, USA
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Posted: 5/10/2023 7:50:01 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rodent: My favorite ARs don't even have iron sights. |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 7:56:26 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mike_Golf: Reminds me of the Fudds in charge of our LE certification. It's a potential red flag. However, I started my Black Rifle Disease by shooting 1,000 rounds through iron sights. Helped me learn a lot about the AR. Same. Red dots are here and there's no reason to not use them or gate keep them. Iron sights do still work, but they are secondary. A good 2 moa dot will be faster than any irons and allow more precision than any irons except maybe the sort used in CMP and NRA matches. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 5/10/2023 8:08:11 AM EDT
[#19]
The instructor probably has a lesson plan like
"Hours 0-2: instruct on zeroing iron sights." |
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Posted: 5/10/2023 8:47:40 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By heavily_armed: The instructor probably has a lesson plan like "Hours 0-2: instruct on zeroing iron sights."  I hope not. It will be awful boring for us if it is.
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Posted: 5/10/2023 7:43:45 PM EDT
[#21]
Sounds like your saying it's 4 separate modules of instruction, roughly 4 hours each, set up to where someone can take 1, 2, 3 or all four modules correct?
How often is it offered? No offense meant but it sounds like maybe doing the first and perhaps 2nd part (1 day??) would be easier and then coming back later for the rest or ideally, all of it over again. Might help to do it that way. You mentioned 4 rifles "3 you are test firing", which means you haven't fired those weapons at all. Which means in all likelihood 1 or more of them will likely go down during 2 days of training. Again, nothing personal just it fits the "I brought a rifle I fired one time" mess that often happens when people attend classes for the first time. I wouldn't focus on the iron sights versus optics thing, I would focus on making sure your rifles are well lubed, your magazines do not have 31 rounds in them (happens all the time, then the student is standing there wondering why the magazine won't lock or is dealing with a jam). Don't get too wrapped around the axle watching youtube videos.... Go to class and learn in person, initially. After you've gotten a few dozen classes under your belt, some of the YT videos will make more sense once you have a baseline to work from. Also it might help you avoid developing any training scars. Women- IMO women are easier to teach to shoot, they tend to have less ego involved and less idiotic preconceptions aka the "my granpappy taught me how to shoot when I was 12" type of non sense. They tend to have more of an open mind. Big things to practice before class- control your muzzle and ideally muzzle down. Think that the end of the muzzle is a laser that will cut off whatever the hell the angle of it crosses. I don't carry what kind of sling or if you have a sling, control your muzzle always. When the line goes hot, the muzzle never points anywhere but down range when it's clear to do so. If you have issues, can't figure something out, you still control your muzzle and keep the gun safe. Raise your hand, set the rifle on the ground safely (muzzle pointing in a safe direction, etc.) etc. Take your wife shooting a little bit before class, get her used to the rifle with some familiarization fire, manipulation of safety, etc. Be good for you as well. Just some random thoughts. Be sure to post here again after class, be interesting to hear what you have figured out. |
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