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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/9/2024 7:22:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Oldhogleg]
Every high level shooter will tell you they'll typically periodically go back to mastering the
fundamentals of marksmanship because it's the foundation of advanced shooting. Yet the average shooter seems to have the misconception the fundamentals are infantile and self deprecating. This is typically seen at your local public range, where virtually no one at the pistol line can shoot a target at any distance that doesn't look like a shot gun pattern. They'll shoot shotgun patterns at targets as close as 7 or 5 yards; close enough to get a qualifying score just by throwing the pistol at the target. A pistol shooter who mastered the fundamentals of marksmanship can easily dump a mag into a 6" target at 25 yards in slow fire, and yet the typical shooter on the line can't do that at 5 yards. Then at the rifle range no one on the entire line ever gets off the bench to practice shooting classic field positions. It used to be that a rifleman that mastered the fundamentals of marksmanship was capable of hitting a 4 MOA (about 16") target at a quarter mile with iron sights from a field position ON DEMAND! |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/9/2024 7:31:45 PM EDT
[#1]
But when one tries to mention mastering the fundamental of marksmanship to the
typical shooter on the line, they'll look at you like you just said something about their mother. |
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Posted: 2/9/2024 9:56:45 PM EDT
[#2]
[b]Originally Posted By Oldhogleg:[/b It used to be that a rifleman that mastered the fundamentals of marksmanship was capable of hitting a 4 MOA (about 16") target at a quarter mile with iron sights from a field position ON DEMAND! A 16" target at a quarter mile (440 yards) with good iron sights from a field position doesn't sound all that daunting to people who actually practice off a bench. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/11/2024 1:14:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Oldhogleg]
[#3]
At Genin
It's not difficult with practice, but most people don't push themselves to that level of proficiency, prefering to only do what's easy. For example: Back in the 90s and 2000s when I used to shoot CMP High Power matches on a regular basis. About every year or two we would get someone from some SWAT team showing up for the first time to shoot a CMP match which was iron sights only and field positions only. As they're setting up their gear for their strings of fire, they'll be informing us little peasants that they're trained SWAT Snipers and they'll show us silly little amateurs how it's done. Like clock work they're score at the bottom of the barrel along with all the other neophytes of the day. Then they'll quietly disappear with all their gear before the day's scores were announced at the end of the day's match, never to be seen again. For another example I typically tell people to always practice shooting at twice the range you think you'll be defending yourself at because under stress you're effective range will be cut in half. But I always get arguments it's not necessary, that what they do is good enough. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 10:52:20 AM EDT
[#4]
This has always been a sensitive subject for me.
Can't recall who said it but "the more skilled you are at performing the basics (fundamentals), the more advanced you will be as a shooter". Quick story. A friend (instructor) attended a precision rifle course at Thunder Ranch (Texas) years ago with some of his friends. On the way home back to Tennessee they started reflecting on the course and were somewhat disappointed at how much traditional position shooting they did during the course lamenting that "we could have done that at home". They then realized that while they COULD HAVE done all that position shooting at home, it was extremely unlikely that they WOULD HAVE. Why? Because traditional position shooting is not as "sexy" as CQB and room clearing drills, etc. One more point. While I realize the utility of vertical foregrips on AR15's, I have always resisted using one because they will likely get in the way of adjusting for inclination / declination in the sitting position. Great topic. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 11:12:34 AM EDT
[#5]
I hear lots of people say that it's boring. Typically they have not actually mastered the "fundamentals" IMO.
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Posted: 2/13/2024 11:18:59 AM EDT
[#6]
It's across the board in all aspects. We see it in combatives also. New guy has watched UFC, played around with his cousin "Bubba" in the back yard, threw hands and rolled around on the ground a bit. They want to learn heel hooks but don't understand basic escapes. We usually put one of the 12 to 15 year olds on them and they get humbled a bit getting wrecked by a little kid.
On the shooting range, somewhat due to pride and I think partially due (for a lot of folks) to have naziesque public range rules, they never do much to push themselves. And "practice" becomes a bit of ballistic masturbation. I.e, do what your already good at, versus pushing yourself with things you need to work on- positional changes, movement, shooting with your non dominant hand, clearing jams under stress, etc. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2024 4:17:35 PM EDT
[#7]
@ Lowdown3
I know what you mean about range restrictions. Many of the ranges I used to go to now restrict shooting to bench shooting only. A total waste of time beyond initial zeroing. Needles to say, I no longer go to those ranges. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2024 4:53:43 PM EDT
[#8]
@ Lowdown3
Another thing reguading range restrictions. All ranges I know of and been to do not allow pistol live fire from the holster. But most people don't realize there's usually holster live fire practice days available at many ranges after taking a orientation class and passing a live fire from a holster test that demonstrates your ability to operate safely. The other hurdle is even if they know about all that, they're too lazy to go through it to have access to holster live fire practice. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2024 5:12:37 PM EDT
[#9]
@ TonyF
That reminds me of another thing reguading pistols. This is where the lack of mastering the fundamental ls ubiquitous with all pistol shooters at any public pistol range. People typically shoot shotgun patterns at all range distances to as close as 3 or 5 yards (close enough to get a qualifying score by simply throwing your gun at the target) while slow firing with carful aim. The irony is that they all go home patting themselves on the back for being great shots; being completely ignorant of just how poor their marksmanship skills are, specially when everyone else to their left and to their right aren't shooting any better. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/13/2024 6:12:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MemeWarfare]
[#10]
I use a bench for 2 things only:
1) sight-in 2) load development I have no other need or desire for bench shooting. Every range trip, I am shooting rifles from field positions and pistols from the holster. There will be no shooting benches in the Boogaloo. As previously mentioned, go shoot CMP. If you are dedicated, in 3 years time you’ll be able to shoot a sub-moa 5 shot group with a 5# trigger and no artificial support. Just you, your rifle, and a sling. If you’re really good you’ll get to where you can shoot a sub-2moa 20 shot at 600 yards in the wind. And no plate-size target at 100 yards will be safe from your off-hand snap-shots. No plate size target at even 200 yards will be safe from your offhand shots either as long as you have a few seconds. We need a marksmanship renaissance. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/13/2024 6:26:51 PM EDT
[#11]
Originally Posted By Oldhogleg: Every high level shooter will tell you they'll typically periodically go back to mastering the fundamentals of marksmanship because it's the foundation of advanced shooting. Yet the average shooter seems to have the misconception the fundamentals are infantile and self deprecating. This is typically seen at your local public range, where virtually no one at the pistol line can shoot a target at any distance that doesn't look like a shot gun pattern. They'll shoot shotgun patterns at targets as close as 7 or 5 yards; close enough to get a qualifying score just by throwing the pistol at the target. A pistol shooter who mastered the fundamentals of marksmanship can easily dump a mag into a 6" target at 25 yards in slow fire, and yet the typical shooter on the line can't do that at 5 yards. Then at the rifle range no one on the entire line ever gets off the bench to practice shooting classic field positions. It used to be that a rifleman that mastered the fundamentals of marksmanship was capable of hitting a 4 MOA (about 16") target at a quarter mile with iron sights from a field position ON DEMAND! My club went full safety and put a half wall in front of the benches so that there was just on access point to go down range after a failure to supervise children that went down range while hot incident. No way to shoot kneeling or prone.  It’s a deplorable state of affairs. it to mention the wall and the benches are connected so that if a guy on bench one drops his ammo box on the bench the crosshairs in the scope will wobble at bench five. A pavillion build for deer rifle sight ins by the shot gunners. |
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Posted: 2/13/2024 6:27:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AbstractIdeas]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MemeWarfare: I use a bench for 2 things only: 1) sight-in 2) load development I have no other need or desire for bench shooting. Every range trip, I am shooting rifles from field positions and pistols from the holster. There will be no shooting benches in the Boogaloo. As previously mentioned, go shoot CMP. If you are dedicated, in 3 years time you’ll be able to shoot a sub-moa 5 shot group with a 5# trigger and no artificial support. Just you, your rifle, and a sling. If you’re really good you’ll get to where you can shoot a sub-2moa 20 shot at 600 yards in the wind. And no plate-size target at 100 yards will be safe from your off-hand snap-shots. No plate size target at even 200 yards will be safe from your offhand shots either as long as you have a few seconds. We need a marksmanship renaissance. Red dots and optics are standard issue now and have greatly enhanced a shooters ability by simplifying the game. Shooters no longer need the complex coaching of front sight in focus, hold at 6' o'clock, ignore the rear sight, etc. Now I think the biggest detremint to polishing new shooters is a) understanding their zero / drop and b) getting trigger time in classic field and unconventional positions. The two disciplines which will help immensely with this are high power shooting for classic field positions and precision rifle where barriers, angles, rests, etc. all come into play in practical field scenarios. The optic revolution is here and mastery of irons should only be a supplement because the basics of marksmanship still apply if they have an acog or a red dot, it's just the sight picture has been greatly simplified (rds) or enhanced (magnified optic). I personally enjoy iron shooting but the modern shooter can equally be coached the fundamentals on a red dot. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/13/2024 6:32:32 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MemeWarfare: I use a bench for 2 things only: 1) sight-in 2) load development I have no other need or desire for bench shooting. Every range trip, I am shooting rifles from field positions and pistols from the holster. There will be no shooting benches in the Boogaloo. As previously mentioned, go shoot CMP. If you are dedicated, in 3 years time you’ll be able to shoot a sub-moa 5 shot group with a 5# trigger and no artificial support. Just you, your rifle, and a sling. If you’re really good you’ll get to where you can shoot a sub-2moa 20 shot at 600 yards in the wind. And no plate-size target at 100 yards will be safe from your off-hand snap-shots. No plate size target at even 200 yards will be safe from your offhand shots either as long as you have a few seconds. We need a marksmanship renaissance. This is true! Years ago I won a nice prize at an arfcom shoot because in the final shoot off we had to shoot a 100 yards off hand at electronic pop ups. Iirc you had to hit your target five times first. At the time I was active shooting service rifle locally. I used my old school bone stock Colt AR15A2 Hbar against the other fellow with a nicely tricked out AR15 carbine with optics. I shot slower and made my hits faster. I did nothing differently than my regular offhand other than I disn’t lower my rifle between shots as I was on the clock/ head to head. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/13/2024 6:34:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SteelonSteel]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AbstractIdeas: Red dots and optics are standard issue now and have greatly enhanced a shooters ability by simplifying the game. Shooters no longer need the complex coaching of front sight in focus, hold at 6' o'clock, ignore the rear sight, etc. Now I think the biggest detremint to polishing new shooters is a) understanding their zero / drop and b) getting trigger time in classic field and unconventional positions. The two disciplines which will help immensely with this are high power shooting for classic field positions and precision rifle where barriers, angles, rests, etc. all come into play in practical field scenarios. The optic revolution is here and mastery of irons should only be a supplement because the basics of marksmanship still apply if they have an acog or a red dot, it's just the sight picture has been greatly simplified (rds) or enhanced (magnified optic). I personally enjoy iron shooting but the modern shooter can equally be coached the fundamentals on a red dot. You also get a certain age and your best iron sight days are behind you.  
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2024 8:02:51 PM EDT
[#15]
@MemeWarfare
Took the words right out of my mouth! It's amazing how much people poo poo CMP matches, it's designed to master the Fundamentals of Marksmanship, and it's the ones that had done that are the ones that win matches; Not the rifle, not the gear, not the ninja stuff, but a true Rifleman. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/13/2024 8:15:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Oldhogleg]
[#16]
@AbstractIdeas
Decades ago when I used to shoot Silhouette Matches, we would alternate between irons and optic sights, and the thing that surprised us all was that typical individual scores remained relatively unchanged between the two; supporting your assertion the fundamentals of marksmanship doesn't change. Age is where optics has a distinct advantage, my aged eyes are garbage now for good iron sight shooting. Most of my shooting is now with optics, but I still do irons to keep my feet wet. |
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Posted: 2/14/2024 7:22:20 PM EDT
[#17]
Mastering fundamentals is hard work and time consuming. Many people are just interested in "fun" and making noise. But the thing is that if you don't master the fundamentals of marksmanship and get a lot of practice doing it wrong you have serious training scars.
My toughest students are the ones who have lots of training doing it wrong. It takes a lot of work to fix. Better to first get solid training on the fundamentals of marksmanship than practice doing it wrong. Master safety and fundamentals of marksmanship and gun handling. That gives you a solid base for everything else. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/15/2024 5:49:44 PM EDT
[#18]
@ R_S
I typically see that from people who put the cart before the hores; meaning they jump into self defense/tactics training before mastering the fundamental of marksmanship. I was seeing a lot of that at pistol training courses where people are typically put through a tactics "drill-mill" class only to end up leaving the course at the end of the class with no significant improvement in their marksmanship proficiency. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/17/2024 12:43:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SteelonSteel: This is true! Years ago I won a nice prize at an arfcom shoot because in the final shoot off we had to shoot a 100 yards off hand at electronic pop ups. Iirc you had to hit your target five times first. At the time I was active shooting service rifle locally. I used my old school bone stock Colt AR15A2 Hbar against the other fellow with a nicely tricked out AR15 carbine with optics. I shot slower and made my hits faster. I did nothing differently than my regular offhand other than I disn’t lower my rifle between shots as I was on the clock/ head to head. Yep. I’ve had similar experiences where it was very evident that my service rifle shooting was benefiting other disciplines. I first noticed it while preparing for a muzzle loader hunt at the end of my first high-power season. I had participated in over a dozen matches and spent hundreds of hours doing dry-fire (I had been recruited to a state rifle team). I went out with my muzzle loader and verified zero. Then I tried a 100 yard offhand at a paper plate and was shocked to realize it was “easy”. Took a few more that produced a 4” group. Then I tried speeding up my shots. I couldn’t miss. I sped up even more. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. Confidence soared. One of the things many don’t understand about intense fundamentals training is the refinement that happens to the coordination between your eyeball and trigger finger. It is as if all latency disappears. And the moment your eye registers the necessary sight picture, the shot breaks in that instant, and it breaks with perfect execution. You experience a momentary time compression where your brain processes that moment so quickly that you literally know where the bullet will impact while it is still in flight. It’s an amazing thing to experience, and anyone can experience it if they are willing to put in the reps. |
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Posted: 2/17/2024 1:02:54 PM EDT
[#20]
Good points OP. I started seriously shooting pistols 2.5 years ago. I go three times weekly and shoot around 6-7,000 rounds yearly. I always focus on fundamentals and evaluated each session and knew what to work on in the next session. I learned something every time I went. My buddy who goes once a week with me, shoots the same way at the same distances every time and isn’t interested in the fundamentals. I improve every time and am always excited about what I learn as I improve.
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Posted: 2/17/2024 1:23:21 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MemeWarfare: One of the things many don’t understand about intense fundamentals training is the refinement that happens to the coordination between your eyeball and trigger finger. It is as if all latency disappears. And the moment your eye registers the necessary sight picture, the shot breaks in that instant, and it breaks with perfect execution. You experience a momentary time compression where your brain processes that moment so quickly that you literally know where the bullet will impact while it is still in flight. It’s an amazing thing to experience, and anyone can experience it if they are willing to put in the reps. The Talent Code by Daniel Coyle discusses the biological foundations of skill building. He describes how certain types of practice, build skill faster than others. It's not about shooting other than the fact that shooting is a skill. |
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Posted: 2/20/2024 10:48:40 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bpm990d: The Talent Code by Daniel Coyle discusses the biological foundations of skill building. He describes how certain types of practice, build skill faster than others. It's not about shooting other than the fact that shooting is a skill. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bpm990d: Originally Posted By MemeWarfare: One of the things many don’t understand about intense fundamentals training is the refinement that happens to the coordination between your eyeball and trigger finger. It is as if all latency disappears. And the moment your eye registers the necessary sight picture, the shot breaks in that instant, and it breaks with perfect execution. You experience a momentary time compression where your brain processes that moment so quickly that you literally know where the bullet will impact while it is still in flight. It’s an amazing thing to experience, and anyone can experience it if they are willing to put in the reps. The Talent Code by Daniel Coyle discusses the biological foundations of skill building. He describes how certain types of practice, build skill faster than others. It's not about shooting other than the fact that shooting is a skill. Yes. I would say if an instructor is not familiar with the information in "The Talent Code"... they are really "shooting in the dark" on their instruction. Deep Practice, Ignition, and Master Coaching MUST be understood. “Deep practice is built on a paradox: struggling in certain targeted ways—operating at the edges of your ability, where you make mistakes—makes you smarter. Or to put it a slightly different way, experiences where you’re forced to slow down, make errors, and correct them—as you would if you were walking up an ice-covered hill, slipping and stumbling as you go—end up making you swift and graceful without you realizing it.” We all know that practice makes perfect, right? Well, not all practice is equal. It’s really more about the quality, rather than the quantity of practice. And the highest quality of practice is called deep practice by Daniel Coyle and deliberate practice by Anders Ericsson. Deep practice is best described by the following words: attention, connect, build, whole, alert, focus, mistake, repeat, tiring, edge, awake. Deep practice is hard. It’s uncomfortable. It’s tiring. It involves struggling, making mistakes, correcting mistakes. It evokes a feeling of reaching, falling short, and reaching again. It’s a cycle including four steps: Pick a target in the sweet spot Reach for it Evaluate the gap between the target and the reach Return to step one The sweet spot is the zone where learning takes off. It’s right at the end of your comfort zone, in your struggle zone if you will. The place between “too easy” and “too hard.” The place between boredom and overwhelm. The place when it’s hard but manageable. To get the most out of any practice, you need to always train in that zone. Make it too easy or too hard and learning diminishes. Another crucial aspect of deep practice is focus. When you’re practicing deeply, you’re training in your sweet spot and you’re training with high concentration. You’re also constantly attending to and tweaking mistakes. It’s this combination that maximizes learning and creates the feeling of struggle and strain. https://www.njlifehacks.com/the-talent-code-daniel-coyle-summary/ |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 2/20/2024 1:35:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Oldhogleg]
[#23]
@R_S
That brings up what is a good training doctrine/concept, and I think you have pointed out the main principle; do what is hard rather than what's easy, and do it with conscious attention on every level while pushing yourself beyond the comfort zone, expand your proficiency envelope. I have a few examples of this that people typically don't consider. For example practicing at ranges twice the distance you may need, or using targets half the size that you need. When practicing off hand shooting with optics, people typically prefer low or zero magnification to make it easier in avoiding wobble and finding targets. What they should be doing is cranking the magnification to the max and practice techniques in finding targets quickly AND controlling wobble to a higher degree. What made me think of this was shooting my long range match 22LR rifle off hand at a 6" target at 100" with the scope cranked up 50 power recently as I typically do for practice when a shooter next to me asked to give it a try with my 22. Needles to say he couldn't find the target, let alone couldn't hold it steady to take a shot while I can typically find the target, get sight alignment and break the trigger inside of 5 to 6 seconds. Not because I have any special talent, but because I've been practicing. It's because of this practice doctrine that shooting at lower powers and with irons feels like childs play in comparison. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 3/14/2024 12:32:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: VillageIdiot2]
[#24]
"There is no such thing as advanced shooting; there is only the advanced application of the basics when it comes to tactical shooting training and tactical firearms training. Solid fundamentals trained to muscle memory gives you the ability to focus more on the mission. A solid base of fundamentals provides the ability for marksmanship on demand in combat shooting."
Pulled directly from GET website. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/16/2024 8:52:50 PM EDT
[#25]
Lots of classes out there but very little actual coaching where the student form would get corrected. Also shooting is all micromotorics that's hard to diagnose.
Also, the culture here in the US doesn't seem to appreciate the hard work and dedication that goes into refining one's skill. The flip side though is the US is where the technological advances flattening the learning curve originate. From auto transmissions to red dots etc. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 2:23:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voyager3: Lots of classes out there but very little actual coaching where the student form would get corrected. Also shooting is all micromotorics that's hard to diagnose. Also, the culture here in the US doesn't seem to appreciate the hard work and dedication that goes into refining one's skill. The flip side though is the US is where the technological advances flattening the learning curve originate. From auto transmissions to red dots etc. "Also, the culture here in the US doesn't seem to appreciate the hard work and dedication that goes into refining one's skill" How so? Where are you drawing that line of reasoning? |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 2:35:00 PM EDT
[#27]
Soapbox:
The more I learn about shooting the more I think it's just mastering fundamental skills and being able to apply them faster and more effectively in a wider range of situations. From the shooters perspective: The term has probably been slightly ruined by shitty instructors overusing it and simultanously sucking at teaching "fundamentals" - a broad term that can mean many things to many people. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 2:48:14 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VillageIdiot2: "Also, the culture here in the US doesn't seem to appreciate the hard work and dedication that goes into refining one's skill" How so? Where are you drawing that line of reasoning? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VillageIdiot2: Originally Posted By voyager3: Lots of classes out there but very little actual coaching where the student form would get corrected. Also shooting is all micromotorics that's hard to diagnose. Also, the culture here in the US doesn't seem to appreciate the hard work and dedication that goes into refining one's skill. The flip side though is the US is where the technological advances flattening the learning curve originate. From auto transmissions to red dots etc. "Also, the culture here in the US doesn't seem to appreciate the hard work and dedication that goes into refining one's skill" How so? Where are you drawing that line of reasoning? I'll throw out an example for you... I used to shoot highpower, and you'd often see guys chasing bulls and adjusting sights, blaming wind, ammo, anything really, for what amounted to inconsistent shooting. These were usually the guys who shot "real" guns, so were unwilling to shoot smallbore or air rifle, both disciplines which would really help remove variable from the equation and force fundamentals. It's a mindset thing, where insecure people think they are too "good" for the basics. I've seen it in pistol and other disciplines as well. If you can't group consistently with all the time in the world, you sure as hell won't under time pressures and from a draw. But you'll have people trying fancy IDPA or other drills who probably could use some time just working on sight picture and trigger squeeze. Imagine pro athletes thinking they are too good to do basic drills or practice. The pros are pros because they appreciate and respect the fundamental nature of the fundamentals. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 7:38:43 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bohr_Adam: I'll throw out an example for you... I used to shoot highpower, and you'd often see guys chasing bulls and adjusting sights, blaming wind, ammo, anything really, for what amounted to inconsistent shooting. These were usually the guys who shot "real" guns, so were unwilling to shoot smallbore or air rifle, both disciplines which would really help remove variable from the equation and force fundamentals. It's a mindset thing, where insecure people think they are too "good" for the basics. I've seen it in pistol and other disciplines as well. If you can't group consistently with all the time in the world, you sure as hell won't under time pressures and from a draw. But you'll have people trying fancy IDPA or other drills who probably could use some time just working on sight picture and trigger squeeze. Imagine pro athletes thinking they are too good to do basic drills or practice. The pros are pros because they appreciate and respect the fundamental nature of the fundamentals. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By VillageIdiot2: Originally Posted By voyager3: Lots of classes out there but very little actual coaching where the student form would get corrected. Also shooting is all micromotorics that's hard to diagnose. Also, the culture here in the US doesn't seem to appreciate the hard work and dedication that goes into refining one's skill. The flip side though is the US is where the technological advances flattening the learning curve originate. From auto transmissions to red dots etc. "Also, the culture here in the US doesn't seem to appreciate the hard work and dedication that goes into refining one's skill" How so? Where are you drawing that line of reasoning? I'll throw out an example for you... I used to shoot highpower, and you'd often see guys chasing bulls and adjusting sights, blaming wind, ammo, anything really, for what amounted to inconsistent shooting. These were usually the guys who shot "real" guns, so were unwilling to shoot smallbore or air rifle, both disciplines which would really help remove variable from the equation and force fundamentals. It's a mindset thing, where insecure people think they are too "good" for the basics. I've seen it in pistol and other disciplines as well. If you can't group consistently with all the time in the world, you sure as hell won't under time pressures and from a draw. But you'll have people trying fancy IDPA or other drills who probably could use some time just working on sight picture and trigger squeeze. Imagine pro athletes thinking they are too good to do basic drills or practice. The pros are pros because they appreciate and respect the fundamental nature of the fundamentals. I agree. I have been guilty of similar tendencies. Wanting to take to the more sexy "high speed rifle courses", and discounting the fundamental courses offered as I had taken basic courses before from different companies awhile back and believed money better spent was on "high speed" instruction. A good instructor will remind you all this "tactical training" is essentially nothing more than the application of fundamentals with added layers of complexity. I guess I needed to go the route that I took to truly understand and appreciate this. Probably the same for many others. The folks you described are either learning this lesson, or won't and probably will never progress beyond.....who knows. |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 11:24:19 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bohr_Adam: I'll throw out an example for you... I used to shoot highpower, and you'd often see guys chasing bulls and adjusting sights, blaming wind, ammo, anything really, for what amounted to inconsistent shooting. These were usually the guys who shot "real" guns, so were unwilling to shoot smallbore or air rifle, both disciplines which would really help remove variable from the equation and force fundamentals. It's a mindset thing, where insecure people think they are too "good" for the basics. I've seen it in pistol and other disciplines as well. If you can't group consistently with all the time in the world, you sure as hell won't under time pressures and from a draw. But you'll have people trying fancy IDPA or other drills who probably could use some time just working on sight picture and trigger squeeze. Imagine pro athletes thinking they are too good to do basic drills or practice. The pros are pros because they appreciate and respect the fundamental nature of the fundamentals. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bohr_Adam: Originally Posted By VillageIdiot2: Originally Posted By voyager3: Lots of classes out there but very little actual coaching where the student form would get corrected. Also shooting is all micromotorics that's hard to diagnose. Also, the culture here in the US doesn't seem to appreciate the hard work and dedication that goes into refining one's skill. The flip side though is the US is where the technological advances flattening the learning curve originate. From auto transmissions to red dots etc. "Also, the culture here in the US doesn't seem to appreciate the hard work and dedication that goes into refining one's skill" How so? Where are you drawing that line of reasoning? I'll throw out an example for you... I used to shoot highpower, and you'd often see guys chasing bulls and adjusting sights, blaming wind, ammo, anything really, for what amounted to inconsistent shooting. These were usually the guys who shot "real" guns, so were unwilling to shoot smallbore or air rifle, both disciplines which would really help remove variable from the equation and force fundamentals. It's a mindset thing, where insecure people think they are too "good" for the basics. I've seen it in pistol and other disciplines as well. If you can't group consistently with all the time in the world, you sure as hell won't under time pressures and from a draw. But you'll have people trying fancy IDPA or other drills who probably could use some time just working on sight picture and trigger squeeze. Imagine pro athletes thinking they are too good to do basic drills or practice. The pros are pros because they appreciate and respect the fundamental nature of the fundamentals. Much truth! My intro pistol and rifle classes are focused firmly on fundamentals and students who have done a lot of "fancy drills" are the worst ones because they have been practicing their poor fundamentals repeatedly cementing bad habits. I prefer to use smallbore and airsoft as a lead up to service caliber rifle shooting... which is very different than most carbine classes these days. It seems a lot of students and instructors like to launch a lot of high power rounds down range and turn money into noise. One instructor advised me that "high round count carbine classes" are where the money is at for firearms instructors. Students with poor fundamentals can still hit the target every time at 7 yards with an AR-15... so students leave the class feeling good after sending one thousand rounds down range at gimme targets. A recent student of mine had been through 3 carbine courses from other instructors... and wanted to try out my tactical carbine class. I typically require 2-3 days of fundamentals training first, but he thought 3 weekends with other instructors would be enough. It wasn't. With a lot of 1-on-1 instruction and reps I got him to the point where he could pass 6 out of 10 of Paul Howe's CSAT Rifle standards... but his rifle fundamentals weren't Delta ready. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 7:12:06 PM EDT
[#31]
If you never master the basics, you will never be good at it.
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 8:34:57 PM EDT
[#32]
What do you guys consider the fundamentals for pistol and rifle?
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