I have been reading this forum and a few other websites to try to learn the basics of ham communications.  One thing that sticks out to me is that it seems without a repeater your range is severely limited. I am having a hard time figuring out what the utility is of ham is in a shtf situation with no repeaters. Correct me if I am wrong but without repeaters you are only good for maybe 5 miles of communication ? What is the point of getting a license, buying all the gear, and learning how to use it if once the repeaters go out most of your capability is gone? Not trying to be a smartass. It seems there is maybe something I am missing in the equation.

I talk all over the world without repeaters.

Once a week a few of us from all over the country have keyboard to keyboard chats (like a chat room) without repeaters.

The answer for long range/over the horizon communications is HF. Don't think that a $40 handi talki is the end of the road in radio.

If you have a license and the equipment it gives you the opportunity to actually use all of the different frequencies and modes of operation.



Sure I guess you could read all about it and have the equipment handy but when the S does HTF will you actually know how to use it right?

OP, your questions are valid, and one of the Caveats that come along with us encouraging folks to jump in and buy a cheap HT-but just like anything else-there is MORE than meets the eye!

it seems you may be unaware of the different privileges and spectrum allowed as you progress through the levels of Amateur Radio.

think of it as an Inverted 3 level Pyramid

Picture the technician as the tip of the Triangle.  it's the smallest part of the triangle yet still a part of it. Privileges are there, but the most narrow section of.
the General is the middle of the Triangle and  just as the width of the area is larger than the tip, so are the allowances and his privileges (all below him are included).
the top is now the widest section and that reflects the Extra Class Operator, he is granted all the privileges as the 2 sections below as well as some the other 2 can't access!

more privileges = more fun & more range

there are freqs that a Tech can use that would allow one to talk across town to across the World!  It's not just limited to a 5w Walkie-Talkie...

FWIW, I have a 75' 14 ga wire hanging up about 8' over a few tree limbs.  It's connected to a 100w radio that cost me about $450...my farthest contact with this set-up was Japan-a voice contact to boot...not bad IMHO

It'a a Big Big world, and chatting with your buddies on the next hill is just a drop in the Ocean

I think the only time you are limited to 5 miles is when you are on an ht with the duck antenna.  With a ht and a real antenna i have talked 30 miles .  With a good base vhf rig you can work further.  On hf i can work.the world.  I can use 75.m to cover all over the us.  Lots.of people get a ht and think they can work.the world.  Thats probably.not.true.

Repeaters? What is he talking about?

I use my 2M mostly for vehicle-to-vehicle comms. This is very useful on large 4x4 runs where most vehicles have only CB - and they can't all hear each other. The HAM-equipped rigs (even those with only an HT) are always able to communicate. A powerful mobile, though, can really talk for quite some distance with no repeater assistance.

I think it is something they use a microphone with.



To the OP, Some of us spend 99.9% of our time on HF, and many rarely even pick up a microphone.

Instead we let our fingers talk for us using the various modes from CW (Morse code), to SSTV (pictures)
and keyboard to keyboard talking (RTTY, PSK-31, Olivia and many other digital modes).

With the limited HF phone spectrum that Techs are allocated, and less than 150 bucks for a used Radio Shack 10m radio and a magnetic mount antenna,  I have worked several European countries while doing my daily commute or during weekend drives.

Granted, 10m is not the most reliable band for regular long distance comms, it gives you an example of what HF can do.

That peek at the capability is what prompted me to move on and upgrade from Tech to General. More bands, more contacts, more modes, more fun!

To elaborate on SCWolverine's excellent explanation above:

There are always exceptions, but here are the generalities:

1) Distance needs will dictate usable frequencies:

Lower freqs travel better and can get amazing distances on very little power. Like low freq sounds, they easily bend and bounce and penetrate. Higher freqs don't bounce as well and are more "line of sight". Like high frequency sounds, they are weakened (attenuated) and potentially lost around corners and through denser materials.


2) Selected frequency drives antenna size.

Wavelength is the physical distance required to make one complete sine wave/cycle. Like an acoustic tuning fork or musical instrument string, a conductor ("radiator" if everything goes right) of a certain length will resonate at a certain pitch/frequency.

Antennas are 'matched' to a given wavelength by altering the length of their components to be the same as a certain wavelength or a specific fraction thereof. Low frequency = long wavelength. Higher frequencies = short wavelength. A signal on the 160 meter band will have a much longer wavelength (160 meters) than a signal in the 2 meter band (2 meters).


3) Antenna efficiency is limited by relative size.

The closer an antenna is to being the same electrical length (see what I did there?) as one complete cycle (complete cycle = full wave), the more efficiently it radiates at that particular frequency. Cutting it in half to create a half wave antenna saves space and sacrifices a little bit of efficiency. Cutting it in half again creates a quarter wave antenna, which is very commonly found due to its more convenient sizes, but we only give up a little bit more efficiency.

Anything less than 1/4 wave will not resonate well. The conductor (radiator) must be at least 1/4 wave to get close to full power output without a lot of reflected energy.

Anything that is not a full wave, odd multiple of a full wave (3rd harmonic, 5th harmonic, etc), 5/8 wave, 1/2 wave or 1/4 wave will not resonate on frequency. If it does not resonate, we develop voltages at the end of the wire where current cannot flow, which echo back from the termination as "standing waves".

Standing waves represent lost (unradiated) power, either dissipated as heat through cable losses as it bounces back and forth, or absorbed back into the amplifier and radiated as (additional) heat that might even cause damage. The unit of measure for the reflected power is "SWR" or "VSWR" ((Volts) Standing Wave Ratio).

Our goal is to radiate 1:1, meaning we want to radiate 1 watt for every watt delivered to the antenna cable, one to one. As the ratio skews, say to 5:1, more (80% in this example) of your forward power is being reflected back and if you're running 100 watts out at the radio, you're only actually propagating 20.


4) Antenna size is limited by portability requirements, thus frequency is limited by portability requirements, thus distance is limited by portability requirements. One might also suggest that portability is limited by distance requirements - it's really all the same.

A half-wave 160 meter antenna will be 80 meters (>262 feet) in length. Very few people can install a straight 260' wire at 50' or higher on their property, so the efficiency is sacrificed to accommodate the environment. A half wave 80 meter antenna would have to be >131 feet end-to-end. This is the longest element on my fan dipole antenna, and between the wire itself and support ropes, I need tall trees about 150-200 feet apart.

The lowest frequency/longest wavelength usually used in a car is 6 meters, so a quarter wave whip for 6 meters would be (((6/4) x 39.37)/12)=) 4.92 feet long. 10 meters is similar to the CB band (11 meters), so antennas for both of these areas would very often be a quarter wave whip of about 104-108", which is the standard Redneck steel whip you see on pickup truck bumpers world wide, or at least around here. Antennas not matched to the frequency will usually receive OK, but limit transmission power because so much is reflected back.


5) The wavelength multiples and fractions represent admissible sizes for correctly matched antennas, but we can change things to make physical size differences. The frequency will be resonant on a certain length antenna, but sometimes we cannot tolerate the full length. We can still use a full length wire, but wind it in the form of a coil to eat up electrical length and make the radio **think** the whole thing is the right length and therefore resonant.

One such example is the typical police and their "base loaded" antennas. They run right around 39 mHz (about 7.4 meters), yet their trunk mount antennas are only about 3 feet long. We are missing about 3-1/2 feet of antenna, so the rest of the wire is wound in a 3/4" diameter coil located at the base of the antenna. Any 'base loaded', center loaded' or 'top loaded antenna is using extra wire in the form of a coil to make the electrical length correct, even if we cannot have the physical length.

Another example is an HT that works on 6 meters with a 'rubber duck' antenna. The frequency is looking for a 1/4 wave antenna 4.9 feet long, yet our stock antenna duck is only about 12". They achieve resonance similar to a real quarter wave by wrapping the antenna with a wire long enough to make up the difference.

These wire coils/wraps do nothing for radio signal propagation, and the only radiator is the extended piece of wire or steel whip that runs up the center after the coil. A 1/4 wave base loaded antenna is much less effective than a full 1/4 wave whip that needs no "loading coil", since nothing is lost in the coil. This is one reason the upgrade/aftermarket antennas for handhelds are usually longer than the OEM counterpart, and why they can boast better performance.


Handheld Frequencies:

Most handhelds will receive over a very wide range and will tune from the AM broadcast band (500 to 1,600 kHz) up to 999 mHz, minus the cell phone freqs. Mine will get all the broadcast bands, aviation, weather, CB, ham bands, police, etc..

Transmission is limited to VHF and UHF ham bands and transmission capability is what they usually refer to when they list bands. A dual band unit is likely to be 2m and 70 CM, tri-band picks up either 6m or 1.25m, and the quad band will have 6, 2, 1.25 and .7 meter transmit coverage.

1) 6 meters (50 to 54 mHz) is the lowest frequency commonly encountered on handheld units (handheld unit = "HT" = "Handie-Talkie") is also usually 6 meters, but they are not practical at this freq with the standard antenna and limited power. Too high a frequency for optimum performance from a base station, where a slightly longer antenna provides far better reach, due to lower frequencies. Too low a frequency to work well with HTs due to the relatively long antenna wire needed, and even on a car a good performing antenna is going to look massive and dorky (unless you're another ham). I don't know why they even bother with this frequency, other than to say "...it's in there!".

2) 2 meters (144 to 147 mHz) is the most commonly used HT and mobile frequency and you'll see virtually all HTs include this, even single band units. A quarter wave antenna is less than 20" long, and I made a ground plane from about 6 feet of 14/2 Romex and a $5 SO-239 connector from Radio Shack.

3) 1.25 meters (222 to 225 mHz) is another band that is one of the first to go when we start dropping extra bands. It is supposed to be for digital transmission modes and is seldom used for voice (phone) operation. Of no concern to an HT user, but power output is limited to 25 watts in this band, to reduce interference among digital stations and marine stations. This is where most radios allow extra low output, which can be handy for hunting/hiking where two or more would like to communicate in the relative privacy afforded by weak signals and high frequencies that do not disturb other users.

4) 70 centimeters (430 to 450 mHz) is the second most popular band for HTs and mobiles. It is usually the second band in a dual band radio.

Repeaters (slang ~ "machines") can operate on any of several frequencies, but 2 meters is most common in many areas. Repeaters are usually located on a high spot and often are not much more than antenna space rented on a tower with about $1,500 worth of equipment tied to it from a cabinet below.

Operation is such that we would transmit to a repeater on its input frequency, and the repeater would immediately/concurrently retransmit this signal at higher power on its output frequency. Between the physical location and extra power, a repeater can multiply your signal coverage radius to 80-100 miles, sometimes further. This relay is accomplished very much like they do with a cell phone, they 'duplex' the signal. They receive my weak HT signal at a given frequency, and as they re-transmit, they use a frequency either 600 kHz above or below my transmit/their receive frequency. When someone answers your transmission, they too use the repeater's input frequency, and their signal is boosted and retransmitted on the repeater's output frequency, which we are listening to. Unless defaults are changed, the HT automatically offsets the frequency so you automatically talk on the repeater's input side and listen on its output side.

Because repeaters can have overlapping ranges, one transmission can trigger multiple repeaters unless we figure out how to exclude ones we don't need. The answer to this is to set up a gate at the repeater's receiver side, a way to differentiate who is intentionally trying to use the repeater vs who simply happens to be on that frquency. We open this gate (squelch) by providing a sub-audible tone of a specific frequency. The VHF/UHF radios are equipped with what they call 'Tone Squelch', and you transmit a selected tone during your regular transmission that tells the repeater you're legit (sorta) and keeps the gate open. In the list linked below, you will see repeater frequency first, then the tone (if required), then the call sign.


Mobile Unit Frequencies:

1) Mobile UHF/VHF units cover pretty much everything an HT does, although some units are limited to the ham bands, even when only receiving. Because a longer/larger antenna can be mounted/transported on a vehicle, we can work at lower frequencies and enjoy greater range. Because our power supply can be larger with more capacity, we can also enjoy higher transmit power, which contributes to greater range as well.

2) Mobile HF units typically go from 6 meters down to 80 meters. Some units will also cover the VHF/UHF areas, but usually sacrifice something to do so. Hard to have something that is good for *everything*, radios are no exception.


Base Station Frequencies:

By being able to expand both power sources and antenna options, we open up larger frontiers. A radio designed primarily for home use will usually have both higher power capability and greater frequency coverage. Every frequency discussed prior can be more effectively used from a base station. If nothing else, antenna elevation can usually be improved.

This is where most users see maximum range and is going to be the mainstay of long range communication in the event of SHTF. Due to optimum antenna sized associated with the 10 meter to 160 meter bands, this is usually a base station, or a portable rig that requires a long/large antenna to be erected for optimum performance.

As stated above, many folks literally talk around the world without any outside aid whatsoever. In fact, running off a bank of batteries or a backup generator does not change this, so even losing local power does not necessarily shut one down.

I can hook up to a battery, throw a well-designed wire antenna up over a few trees, plug up my HF transceiver and work amazing distances.

Hope this helps and corrections are welcome.

Ed

Different frequencies propagate differently than others.  You're probably reading and thinking about UHF (ultra high frequency) and VHF (very high frequency), which is what you normally see in "beginner" radios because most beginners get a tech license, which grants operating capabilities on the UHF and VHF ham bands.  Given the propagation characteristics of UHF and VHF and the power outputs of those "beginner" radios, those bands are pretty limited in range without taking advantage of repeaters or internet-linked nodes.

UHF and VHF have generally line-of-sight propagation.  You can communicate pretty far with them if you have a clear line of sight - say, if you and your buddy are on clear mountain tops with nothing between you.  

Generalizing, higher frequencies can penetrate objects while lower frequencies will be absorbed by or reflected off of objects.  This is why you can communicate effectively using the VHF 2m band in clear locations while it may struggle in a city with a lot of buildings.  The UHF 70cm band might do better in that city situation since it has a shorter wavelength and, therefore, higher frequency, which lets it penetrate the buildings better.

Worldwide communication is possible with high frequency (HF) bands, which are much longer wavelength (and, therefore, lower frequency) than UHF or VHF bands.  Basically, these frequencies can bounce off of the atmosphere ("skip") and come back to earth somewhere else.  The signal can even bounce between the earth and the atmosphere multiple times.  In some cases, signals can propagate through a layer of the atmosphere and come out somewhere else, allowing long distance communication.  

Operators can also bounce their signals off of satellites (like the moon - see "EME" (earth-moon-earth)).  Communication is also possible through amateur satellites.  If the earth isn't good enough, you can communicate with the International Space Station (ISS), which almost always has at least one ham on it.  

Read through some of the tacked Ham Forum threads and you'll learn a ton about all of this stuff.  It's a hobby worth getting in to and it has the potential be useful in emergency situations or you can do it just for fun.  Give it a shot and get a license.  The license doesn't cost anything and the test fee ranges from free to around $15.  Once you get your ticket, consider it your "license to learn."

I am one that does not recommend an HT for a first radio, nor a mobile rig.  I recommend that a new Tech set up his rig as a base station and learn to operate without the distraction of driving, killing a car load of nuns or school bus full of kids.

The (former Novice and) Tech licenses are intentionally restricted in power and band privileges in order to limit the interference an inexperienced new ham could cause.  If he's going to screw up, he's going to do it locally.  This is why phone is limited to "line of sight" frequencies, but let him have a taste of long distance with 10 meters.

The Extra does not really give much more band privileges over General, not the "pyramid", but more of a diamond.  The Extra gains a little more real estate in the HF bands, but for all practical purposes, a General can do most of what an Extra does on the air.  For example, General on 80 meters, phone, 3.8 to 4.0 mhz.  Extra gets 3.6 - 4.0 mhz phone.  Other bands similar.  Some bands, 160, 17, 12, 10 meters, for example, it is the same for General and Extra.  

I'm going to do sort of a picture post....


$30 HT 5w = 3-5 miles in a flat forest or maybe in a city type environment. 20-30 miles if your on a hill/mountain. Those numbers are guesses because with 5 watts, your location is EVERYTHING.





Mobile type radio 50-75w = 5-12  miles in a flat forest or maybe in a city type environment. 40-60 miles if your on a hill/mountain. Those numbers are guesses because with 50-75 watts, your location is EVERYTHING.





HF rig (base station or mobile) = 1-10,000 miles. The big variable here is your antenna and the ban conditions. Some bands work well at night, some work better during the day. Some bands / antenna combinations work better at close range (100-300 miles), other bands / antenna combinations work better at to talking to Australia.





Some people think they only need a license and a "radio" ant thats it. Nope. A person need to use those skills on the air to learn what/when/how works best. The hobby is a lot of fun and we encourage anyone to join in fun and learn a valuable skill.


You don't need some giant antenna on a 80' tower to get out on HF either (though it helps a little). The radio above and a wire hanging out of a tree in the back yard can get you around the world. Example of wire below.


Picture from BigDaddy here on ARF. Stealth antenna in his backyard.




Ham radio is a lot of fun. Come on in, the water is fine.

eshell: thanks for all the info. I hope you had that written up already and didn't type it out just for me. The part about antenna and wavelengths was a big piece I was missing.

Since the antenna length and construction is so important, is it possible to attach a better antenna to a HT to greatly increase your range ? I am starting to get the idea that rubber ducky antennas are what limits HTs the most. Tell me if this makes sense for getting alot of range out of a HT: for when walking around with a HT you use a 20" rubber ducky for 70cm and then if you need more range you have a portable antenna that you can pull out of a backpack that is a full 70 cm or switch to 2m and a 2m antenna. Does this make sense ?

You can indeed add an antenna. One popular option is a J-Pole. These can be *very* portable, constructed out of 300 ohm flat TV feedline and fed with a length of 50 ohm coax. Plenty of them out there that'll do 2m/440, and it's also easy enough to make your own.  :)

Add some coax and a way to hang it ant you'll be able to get out considerably more than you could with a dunny load... err... loaded rubber duck antenna.  :)

Just adding a mag mount to a Baofeng will amaze you with the improvement. If you attach it to a base style antenna with decent height you'll will go a LONG way. With VHF height and antenna make the difference. Watts are just a crutch but really don't get you that much. In most cases if you aren't making it with 20 watts you probably won't make it with 50 either.

I can regularly communicate simplex on VHF out to 100 miles with terrible conditions. Morning and evening time can bring that out to very typical 350 miles, up and down the coast here, and up to 200 miles inland. That is with a portable setup with an antenna 15 feet above the ground and 60 watts of power. With my FM antenna we do a simplex net here once a month, and I have stations I can hear no problem out to 15 miles on FM, this is with an antenna on the inside my condo.

Repeaters are nice, but anyone that practices emergency preparedness knows to not rely on repeaters for comms. Use them while they are up, but learn the limitations of your equipment and its capabilities to establish reliable communications. Around here the best test is in the summer when the tree's have full foliage on them.

ETA:
Just to elaborate, the club here has it as SOP that if the power is ever really effected and the repeater is on backup power, you switch to the local "tactical" simplex frequency. The repeater is to be left for emergencies or making initial critical contact. Now the repeater is being housed in the City Emergency Operations Center. Being it is powered by a mission critical center, it is full of redundancies. They chose that location for that reason, and actually lost some coverage due to lower antenna height on top of the building versus the city tower, but was the obvious choice due to power and antenna access.

As hams you have to be able to pass some traffic and relay. If I need to get a message to someone across town, I can make contact with anyone with a big ass antenna on a big tower, most likely he can relay. Also with HF, and NVIS it gets even better. Not always going to be 100 percent, but you are also not at the mercy of someone else providing the infrastructure.

It is hard to describe the feeling of being self reliant on communications, and being able to help someone, or get help in a time of need. If I had a dollar for every time I lost cell service in area's here, but could still raise at least 2 repeaters, I would be rich. Also keep in mind most hams do monitor the 146.520 simplex calling frequency. If some of the more rural hams lost repeaters due to a loss of infrastructure, most will be monitoring that and coordinating via the simplex frequencies.

I am going to disagree and agree with this at the same time. (bipolar anyone?) I would say that most days you would have a hard time making a contact on 520. If you did, you could probably get that same ham again and again but no one else.

However, in an emergency where infrastructure was going down, yes, 146.520 would be well monitored.

Can you attach an external antenna to the Baefeng uv-b5 ?

Yes, absolutely. You just need an adapter. Right after I got mine, I drove around with it in my car scanning the same repeaters that my 2m mobile was scanning. With the stock rubber duck it was nearly deaf. When I put a mag mount dual bander on the roof it was pretty close to being able to hear the same things.

Example: http://www.amazon.com/SMA-Female-UHF-RF-Adapter/dp/B00ATEDHXE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1385610962&sr=8-2&keywords=sma+female+to+pl259

while you're on Amazon...you might as well spend this $16....Tram Dual-Band Mag Antenna

works well for it's intended purpose

With a 8db gain antenna hooked up to a HT with an adapter, I can get into a repeater 20 miles away full quieting with 1 watt. (repeater is 2800' up on an mountain) Antenna AND location is dependent on how far you go....
 

is there a way we can get this into one of the Pinned Threads????

VHF simplex mainly depends on the location of the two radios trying to communicate, two elevated hill stations, 5w will get you 10s of miles, 50w might get you a hundred or more. Same radios in a valley, you won't even get out of the valley. Its "mostly" line of sight propagation on VHF. A cheap baofeng will be able to talk a hundred miles if you can hit a repeater, simplex range is a few miles if on reasonably flat ground, however if one site is elevated on a hill then range is greatly extended. Others have covered HF ops already so I won't repeat it.