Polymerase Chain Reaction?  





In all seriousness, I thought there already was a 50yd non-magnified optic class.



 

A lot of folks buying PCRs and they are not as accurate as a rifle.

thanks much, it's a good rifle

I was just browsing a few of the 28 pages that is the other "just post results, NO discussion" 1 MOA all day thread.

Are there any particular trends you have noticed in terms of equipment say like barrels used, optics used, or ammo used?

I am kinda jones'ing for a new scope for my 20" FrankenAR.  It is currently wearing a 22 year old Nikon 3-9 power by 40mm scope in a cheap Model 1 sales mount.

I also just made some handloads using 77gr SMK's.

And one other dumb question:  do you clean your rifle at all between groups or targets?  Or let the barrel cool between groups?

Thanks in advance!

I don't clean until I'm done shooting for the day, I run a patch with a carbon cutter at the range, then when I get home I run 2 dry patches and put the gun away. I do not do any in depth cleaning until accuracy falls off.

Thank you sir!  Appreciate the advice!

Good read here from the NRA

Just read this thread. Wow.


I think the first place entry in the bolt gun section is BS. Rugers aren't accurate. Someone should challenge that guy and make him the same offer.

Im not sure what you are hoping to accomplish here.

That was a huge can of worms that lead to a shit storm that lead to several bans and locks.  

I have no doubt Dan shot those groups as he has sent me similar groups over the years but he never shot the challenge until then . I couldn't, I have tried but will continue to try.  

Not worth my time to argue with haters and backyard scientists, it's not worth yours either.

I didn't actually read the whole thread, pretty much the first few and last pages.

I don't know dpmm but have no reason to doubt him. On the other hand the challenge offered was a great opportunity for ammo money, unfortunate work got in the way.

I would love a shot at the same challenge.

I would love to hear about your barrel swap and ammo build up. My old user name was nick forney my gap hospitaller is a few spots down from yours. You are clearly a talented shot and I would like to see you do it as well but I'm afraid I won't be offering ammo money. I have army buddies in WV but have only been I state once.

The barrel swap was easy, similar to a Savage. Not sure if it means anything, but my RPR shot well with the factory barrel, I just wanted to take it to another level. Perhaps my receiver is more true than others.

As far as load development goes, I bought a bunch of Lapua Scenars on sale. I basically choose that bullet because that's what I had. Josh at PVA told me to load them from 41-43.5 grains with .025 jump. Pretty much anything in that range shot well and you can see from my posted target that it was actually done with several different loads. I have since settled on 41.8gr H4350 with .025 jump. I tried shooting the challenge twice with that load. Once I shot 4 groups ridiculously well but was stupid and only brought 20 rounds of ammo. Used factory for the last group and my rifle hated it. The other time was a bad day and I had made 24/25 decent shots. But literally the last round dropped way low and shot the average from mid .3s to into the .4s.

I'm actually in MD more than WV but my heart is in WV.

Very nice! What is your coal? I have not tried that bullet yet. Looks like I need to!

Sure he shot those groups, but at what range he shot them is the question.

From my experience, those groups being produced at 100 yards with that ammo and that weapon is very unlikely.

I tested the Federal Tru T223F that he shot his sub .5 MOA groups with to see what I could do with it, three 10 round groups produced a 1.6 MOA average. I posted the data in the ammunition forum if you want to check it out.

Originally I guessed that he shot them at 50 yards, after testing the ammo, I now think it may have been even closer. Pretty embarrassing.

take the time to read the whole thread. its enlightening once you take it all in.

I have some I'm going to try out as well.

link?

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/705495_Federal-Tru-T223F-Accuracy-Review.html

I have the second place spot in 22lr@100...

With a Ruger.

Anyone want to make the same challenge bet with me!?  I'd like to shoot during daytime though, but if I had to, I would shoot in the dark... again.  Lol

I'm always needing funds for range improvements :)

1:7 is hardly the optimal twist for a 55 grain bullet. Considering he was shooting a 1:8, I'd say your post proves very little about the accuracy of that particular ammo. Do you have a link to Molon testing it? I checked the sticky in the AR-15 ammo section and didn't see it.

The next time I'm ordering from somewhere that has that ammo in stock, I'll buy a box of that stuff and run it through a Predatar barreled rifle. I'll use the lead sled I'm getting for Christmas and post results. Personally I think disparaging dpmmn's reputation with no evidence is in pretty poor taste. When you point to a test of ammo, that was conducted off a bipod and squeeze bag, that uses a less ideal barrel twist, you significantly weaken your argument.

I believe someone in the pit thread mentioned witnessing dpmmn ringing steel at 1000 yards with an AR. It seems unlikely that someone that can do that would feel the need to cheat on a friendly competition, with no prizes other than bragging rights.

The folks at Federal hold Dpmmn in pretty high regard.

I have a new tac sol barrel for my 10/22 and a magpul hunter stock I am pretty excited about.  I think I need to put a better base on it and use a really expensive scope instead of my diamond back.


I talk to molon on occasion by way of email or private message.  I don't believe he is posting on this forum regularly anymore.  I don't believe he has tested the tru ammo.  The reason he went back to not posting regularly we because he was being harassed because he regularly said 5 round groups are a minimum to get an idea of accuracy while 10 is more standard while 3x10 should be the reported number.  This didn't work well for the accuracy claims of a certain barrel manufacturer and the rest is history.

I caught that thread. I hate that it discouraged him from posting here. He is a great contributor to the forum.

Who?

I am using the factory barrel.  I also want to put one of my better scopes on it... at least for a day to try it out!  As with most things... I have too many ideas, and way too little time shop time, and even less range time.

yes molon is. always backs up his posts with easily verified data. 3 round groups aren't enough for proofing accuracy!

I feel you brother.  The tacsol doesn't fit in the hunter stock.  So I get to sand it down to fit.  A new lab radar chronograph showed up today with the airgun kit so I can shoot 22 all I want with it.  I also downloaded ontarget target data system (which has a 15 day trial which you should try) and that makes it so I can print off 12 bullseye targets and shoot one round at each.  When I get home I will be able to make composite groups with the 12 shots as well as know the exact velocity for each round.  Its gonna be neat.  

Instead though I have been swamped at work and a huge cold spell is coming through Iowa making me not want to go out and shoot at all.  I tried shooting the challenge and I believe I posted the results with my 22 shooting elly sport and the stock (likely shot out) barrel.  I have elly match and wolf stuff now as well as the new barrel so I might move your #2 listing down

I just report the data.

That's my most accurate AR, so I can only report what I can do with my gun and that factory ammo. Personally, I think a 1:7 twist stabilizes a 55 grain bullet just fine.

I am interested in seeing everyone else's results as well.

Mind sharing with the rest of the class?

Is he a world famous shooter or sponsored by Federal or something? In the pit thread he said he worked in a factory.

I believe this is the thread he is referring to. Here

Neither is an 8, 9, or 10.

Not the exact ammo. but the premise is the same: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/687746_55_Grain_Bullets_Fired_From_AR_15s_with_1_7_Twist_Barrels.html

If properly maintained, I doubt that.

I never stated 1:7 wouldn't stabilize a 55. Nowhere in that link does Molon or anyone else claim that 1:7 is optimal for 55s. Since you like linking to Molons' post perhaps you should read his testing criteria. I don't believe he would find the previously mentioned ammo test valid.

IM him and ask him.

He's pretty quick to respond, and very generous with information and data sharing.

"Quality, modern lightweight bullets of  copper-jacket/lead-core construction can shoot superbly from AR-15s with fast twist barrels.   " You seem to think twist rate is a major factor in the difference of 1.1 MOA between dpmmn and Mister_H.


Mister_H's test was fired in a manner similar to that of the MOAAD SPR division in which dpmmn participated, except for the course of fire being three 10-shot groups (which Molon advocates).

Im going to sell this out as simply as I can for you:
1. Testing of ammunition to determine its accuracy potential should be conducted with the ideal rifling twist, in a rifle of known accuracy. Or better yet in multiple rifles of known accuracy in different twist rates with differnt types of rifling. Tests based on a sample of one rifle do offer considerable insight, but they are not nearly comprehensive enough to determine the true accuracy potential of a particular round.
2. Testing of ammunition to determine its accuracy potential should be conducted from a mechanical rest, in order to reduce the possibility of human error.
3. Shooting off of a bipod and squeeze bag is not a good test of the accuracy of a rifle or ammunition, as the accuracy is largely determined by the shooters skills level.
4. 3 10 shot groups overlaid can and likely will produce different group size than 5 separate 5 shot groups, which are not overlaid. This is why 10 shot groups are preferable to determining the accuracy potential of a particular rifle or ammunition. Molon goes to great detail to explain this in the ammo FAQ. We are comparing 5 shot groups to 10 and seeing differnt results, yet some of you act as if this is surprising.
5. The MOA all day challenge is as much a test of skill as it is a test of a particular rifle and ammunition combinations inherent accuracy. Stating that because shooter A could not produce the same groups that shooter B claims, therefore shooter B is lying is ridiculous. They are two different people shooting two very different rifles at two different locations, with completely different conditions and skill sets.
6. Owning a few very accurate rifles and having owned several more previously, I can state for a fact that some rifles shoot some ammunition markedly better than some other rifles. Just because rifle A doesn't shoot ammunition 1 well does not mean that rifle B will not. This is why reloaders tune loads to their rifles. GMM is an example of one type of ammo that seems to shoot well in most rifles, the ammo being discussed may not be, it does not mean it will not shoot well in any rifle. Different twist rates can exacerbate this phenomenon.
7. Different rifling types, twist rates and chamber dimensions can and do have an effect on how well a particular rifle will group with a particular round.
8. There are several other contributing factors to how the same rifle will preform on the same string of fire, much less two different rifles, firing two differnt strings of fire. The amount the barrel is allowed to cool between shots or weather the rounds are single loaded or fired from the magazine being examples. As far as I am aware we do not have this information.
9. We have no data on the accuracy of Mister_Hs' rifle, beyond his MOA all day entries and his post and this particular ammo. All of which hinges on Mister_Hs' word. Why is his word acceptable, yet dmmns' is not?
10. Differnt lots of the same ammunition have been known to produce vastly different accuracy results. This may well be the case here, we have no way of knowing this.
11. There are entirely to many contributing factors and insufficient data to determine how well this ammunition could potentially shoot in dpmmns' rifle.

Sorry for the typos, posting from a mobile device.

good info. thanks

Something like that.  

He is banned now. He couldn't take the trolling that came from the pit thread and others that were spun off of it. Mission accomplished.

Mission accomplished?  You think people wanted him to just run off or be run off?  I suppose we should get back to talking about moa all day though maybe start a pit thread around those that ran him off I would like to have a say to them as well.

I'm not blaming you so don't take it that way.

I hate to hear that. Hopefully they will lift the ban.

What a strange reply.

Edit: Oh I get it, he works in their factory. That makes sense, it seemed like you were alluding to something else.

Anyone got some spare aluminum and steel?

I should of been a union machinist instead of a union carpenter.

I tried the 1 MOA challenge last weekend and it just didn't come together. The first group clocked in at just a hair under an inch (0.957", 0.91 MOA), and they just opened up from there. A number of contributing factors to my disappointing groups: Brand new barrel (30 rounds fired prior to MOA challenge attempt, possibly could improve accuracy as round count climbs), -7 degrees and numb fingers, heavy snow fall, etc. I hate blaming things, but it is what it is. I was just dead set on trying it and picked a bad day. Hopefully soon I'll give it a try on a better day.

Rifle is a Mk12 Holland clone, 16" Douglas 1/7 5.56 barrel from HCS, Mk262 Mod 1 77gr SMK ammo. When I try this again I may do it with handloads, either topped with the same 77gr SMK's with cannelure or 77gr Bergers. And I'll probably do it from a portable bench.

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Not bad shooting from a 12 clone and mk262.  I am sure that douglas barrel can do cool stuff with handloads but I believe that is where the groups should be.

MK262 Mod 1 is roughly 1 MOA capable ammunition at best.

Your shooting was just fine, those are pretty expectable results.

You should post any entry you can always replace it with a better one.