My Grandfather's WWII / Iwo Jima War Trophies

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - My Grandfather's WWII / Iwo Jima War Trophies (Page 1 of 3)

Posted: 9/6/2011 1:42:43 PM EDT

I will be running some Wounded Warrior Project hunts on my farm this fall, so the area coordinator came out to my house today. She was in the Marines, so I decided to get my grandfather's war trophies from Iwo Jima, to show her, and the eventual participants of the hunts. I also took the opportunity to take a few pictures of them.

My grandfather landed on the second day of the invasion, with the 27th Replacement Regiment. From there, he was placed in the E company of the 2nd Battalion, 28th Marines, Fifth Marine Division. He was in the same company as the flag raisers. He knew the ones that lived long enough for him to get to know them.

Below are some of his trophies, along with the letter that authorized him to take them home. (ETA: The rifle, he probably got during the occupation of Japan, not from Iwo Jima.)

A 7.7mm Arisaka rifle, the bayonet and scabbard and an NCO's sword (ETA: The Nihonto Message Board people say it is an Officer's sword):

Close-ups of the bayonet:

Close-ups of the sword and markings under the grip:

Ownership papers:

Close-ups of the rifle:

My grandfather with some of the men he served with. He's the second from the left, holding the flag. All of his buddies signed the flag and he brought it home, but it disappeared sometime over the years:

Posted: 9/6/2011 1:45:38 PM EDT

[#1]

Wow. Those are priceless.

Good for you for sponsering those hunts.

Posted: 9/6/2011 1:46:01 PM EDT

[#2]

Very cool.

Posted: 9/6/2011 1:46:43 PM EDT

[#3]

I want one of those swords

very nice.

Posted: 9/6/2011 1:47:26 PM EDT

[#4]

Thank you for the pix.

Posted: 9/6/2011 1:47:49 PM EDT

[#5]

Very cool and you even have the capture papers. Do you know anything about the sword?

Posted: 9/6/2011 1:49:22 PM EDT

[#6]

Thank you for sharing

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 9/6/2011 1:49:32 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Very cool and you even have the capture papers. Do you know anything about the sword?

Not a whole lot, other than it came off of a dead NCO.

Posted: 9/6/2011 1:49:57 PM EDT

[#8]

Awesome!

Posted: 9/6/2011 1:55:43 PM EDT

[#9]

Good shit Hoss! Both the history and the hunts!

Posted: 9/6/2011 1:55:57 PM EDT

[#10]

Very cool. Thanks for sharing.

Posted: 9/6/2011 1:56:46 PM EDT

[#11]

so cool

thanks for showing us pics

Posted: 9/6/2011 1:57:28 PM EDT

[#12]

Very cool!! Thanks for sharing with us!!

Posted: 9/6/2011 1:58:41 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Good shit Hoss! Both the history and the hunts!

Yeah, I have high hopes for the hunts. My property is exceedingly easy to hunt on, so hopefully I can help some folks that have earned an easy day of deer hunting.

Posted: 9/6/2011 1:59:24 PM EDT

[#14]

Very cool! Thanks for sharing, and massive respect for your grandfather.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:00:46 PM EDT

[#15]

Very cool, thanks for sharing! Those were GREAT MEN! My hero's!

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:00:57 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Very cool and you even have the capture papers. Do you know anything about the sword?

Not a whole lot, other than it came off of a dead NCO.

Stick around and you may find out. There are a couple of members who know a lot about swords and may be able to give you some info.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:01:43 PM EDT

[#17]

The sword appears to be 'signed' by its maker meaning its not just an arsenal produced sword but one of a higher quality...very pretty indeed. The 'Mum' has been partially erased by the Japanese soldier on the rifle which brings its value down a bit, intact Mums are harder to find as most soldiers ground them off as a sign of respect to the Emperor whose sign it was.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:02:13 PM EDT

[#18]

Too bad the mum on the rifle was ground off, meaning it is a surrendered rifle and not a battlefield capture.

Are there any Chrysanthemum markings on the sword? I don't know if a sword would have this, as anything with the emperor's seal (the mum) was considered his property.

EDIT: WhirlyGirl45 beat me too the mum commentary, but I do have a Type 99 with an intact mum - early production - not a last ditch rifle.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:03:32 PM EDT

[#19]

In another thread about Iwo Jima, I posted that picture at the bottom, and a guy IM'ed me, wondering if I could get him any info about his grandfather. We looked his name up in the 5th Marine Division "yearbook", and sure enough, he was in the same Replacement Regiment as my grandfather. There's a good chance that they even came over on the same LST from Honolulu. His grandfather was wounded in action. Luckily, mine wasn't.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:04:02 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Very cool and you even have the capture papers. Do you know anything about the sword?

Not a whole lot, other than it came off of a dead NCO.

Stick around and you may find out. There are a couple of members who know a lot about swords and may be able to give you some info.

Yep, that's what I was hoping for, by taking pics of the markings on it.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:05:16 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
The sword appears to be 'signed' by its maker meaning its not just an arsenal produced sword but one of a higher quality...very pretty indeed. The 'Mum' has been partially erased by the Japanese soldier on the rifle which brings its value down a bit, intact Mums are harder to find as most soldiers ground them off as a sign of respect to the Emperor whose sign it was.

I was under the impression it was just a mass produced sword, but hopefully someone will come along and tell us.

From what I understand, the mum had to be ground off as a condition of getting the "war trophy" papers.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:05:36 PM EDT

[#22]

Thanks for granting me that recognition, I have an intact Mum type 99 at my moms house.

Quoted:
Too bad the mum on the rifle was ground off, meaning it is a surrendered rifle and not a battlefield capture.

Are there any Chrysanthemum markings on the sword? I don't know if a sword would have this, as anything with the emperor's seal (the mum) was considered his property.

EDIT: WhirlyGirl45 beat me too the mum commentary, but I do have a Type 99 with an intact mum - early production - not a last ditch rifle.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:06:43 PM EDT

[#23]

This is like something you see on Antiques Roadshow, and the historian goober with the stupid bow tie tells the owner the approximate value of his items, and the owner has a look on his face that non-coincidentally matches the look on your own face, which is a mix between laughing heartily and backhanding the guy off his chair.

I guess what I'm saying is that what you have there is so fucking badass that it has infinite value.

ETA: Actually IMO including the world "value" among things like that is insulting, so disregard that part.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:06:55 PM EDT

[#24]

I was hoping for a mummified human ear

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:07:13 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The sword appears to be 'signed' by its maker meaning its not just an arsenal produced sword but one of a higher quality...very pretty indeed. The 'Mum' has been partially erased by the Japanese soldier on the rifle which brings its value down a bit, intact Mums are harder to find as most soldiers ground them off as a sign of respect to the Emperor whose sign it was.

I was under the impression it was just a mass produced sword, but hopefully someone will come along and tell us.

From what I understand, the mum had to be ground off as a condition of getting the "war trophy" papers.

I am not an expert on swords (or anything for that matter) but it appears to be a 'signed piece' lets wait for the real experts to show up-sometimes a bit of knowledge is worse than none at all.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:08:10 PM EDT

[#26]

Tag for when one of the members gives more info about the sword.

Thanks for posting the pics, may I ask where you are located in Ohio (without violating OPSEC)?

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:08:31 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Too bad the mum on the rifle was ground off, meaning it is a surrendered rifle and not a battlefield capture.

Are there any Chrysanthemum markings on the sword? I don't know if a sword would have this, as anything with the emperor's seal (the mum) was considered his property.

EDIT: WhirlyGirl45 beat me too the mum commentary, but I do have a Type 99 with an intact mum - early production - not a last ditch rifle.

I'm not sure what the difference between "surrendered" and "battlefield capture" are, but he took them off of a dead guy on Iwo Jima, and it was certainly on a battlefield. I don't know if he killed the man himself or not.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:09:24 PM EDT

[#28]

wow

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:09:34 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Tag for when one of the members gives more info about the sword.

Thanks for posting the pics, may I ask where you are located in Ohio?

Near Kent.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:10:25 PM EDT

[#30]

not much payment for the Hell that was Guada...

God Bless your grandfather..

CHEF

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:11:10 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
This is like something you see on Antiques Roadshow, and the historian goober with the stupid bow tie tells the owner the approximate value of his items, and the owner has a look on his face that non-coincidentally matches the look on your own face, which is a mix between laughing heartily and backhanding the guy off his chair.

I guess what I'm saying is that what you have there is so fucking badass that it has infinite value.

ETA: Actually IMO including the world "value" among things like that is insulting, so disregard that part.

Yep, it's priceless stuff to us. I wish we still had the flag. My dad and uncle suspect that my aunt sold it in a rummage sale or something like that. Tragic.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:11:51 PM EDT

[#32]

Thanks for putting on the WWP hunt, very nice war trophies and much respect to your GF. Excellent post!

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:12:27 PM EDT

[#33]

kcolg30 likes...

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:12:58 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Tag for when one of the members gives more info about the sword.

Thanks for posting the pics, may I ask where you are located in Ohio?

Near Kent.

Gotcha, I am in southern Ohio and the terrain can be a bit of a problem for my older relatives come hunting season.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:14:10 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Too bad the mum on the rifle was ground off, meaning it is a surrendered rifle and not a battlefield capture.

Are there any Chrysanthemum markings on the sword? I don't know if a sword would have this, as anything with the emperor's seal (the mum) was considered his property.

EDIT: WhirlyGirl45 beat me too the mum commentary, but I do have a Type 99 with an intact mum - early production - not a last ditch rifle.

I'm not sure what the difference between "surrendered" and "battlefield capture" are, but he took them off of a dead guy on Iwo Jima, and it was certainly on a battlefield. I don't know if he killed the man himself or not.

Sorry my bad - the difference is if the original owner was dead or alive when the rifle was taken. Also majority of the Arisakas that found their way to the US post war were ground off after the surrender. However your grandfather came upon the rifle, the mum was ground off prior so the emperor's property wouldn't fall into Allied hands.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:15:29 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Tag for when one of the members gives more info about the sword.

Thanks for posting the pics, may I ask where you are located in Ohio?

Near Kent.

Gotcha, I am in southern Ohio and the terrain can be a bit of a problem for my older relatives come hunting season.

One of the best spots is literally 200 yards from my couch and TV. I could carry someone there if they needed it.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:17:11 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Too bad the mum on the rifle was ground off, meaning it is a surrendered rifle and not a battlefield capture.

Are there any Chrysanthemum markings on the sword? I don't know if a sword would have this, as anything with the emperor's seal (the mum) was considered his property.

EDIT: WhirlyGirl45 beat me too the mum commentary, but I do have a Type 99 with an intact mum - early production - not a last ditch rifle.

I'm not sure what the difference between "surrendered" and "battlefield capture" are, but he took them off of a dead guy on Iwo Jima, and it was certainly on a battlefield. I don't know if he killed the man himself or not.

Sorry my bad - the difference is if the original owner was dead or alive when the rifle was taken

Well, out of 22,060 defenders, only 216 were captured. Not too many "alive" guys to take a rifle from.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:19:29 PM EDT

[#38]

Awesome.

My great uncle was KIA on Iwo Jima. Everytime I see film or pictures from Iwo, I wonder if he could be one of those Marines.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:21:06 PM EDT

[#39]

Tag till one of the Sword guys shows up and is possibly able to ID Sword Maker and other info.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:21:21 PM EDT

[#40]

I remember a few years back in Japan there was a movement to start "pressuring" our government to force the return of family heirloom swords that were captured during WW2. I say they can kiss our asses!

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:22:24 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
I remember a few years back in Japan there was a movement to start "pressuring" our government to force the return of family heirloom swords that were captured during WW2. I say they can kiss our asses!

Yeah, good luck with that Japan.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:22:51 PM EDT

[#42]

This reinforces that battlefield captures had ground mums:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275560

I'd love a Type 38 6.5. A close friend of my dad had one, which was modified into being a target rifle.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:22:53 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Well, out of 22,060 defenders, only 216 were captured. Not too many "alive" guys to take a rifle from.

Perhaps the Japanese perceived the battle as a suicide mission and hacked up the rifles prior. Any way you look at it, defacing the Emperor's property was to prevent dishonoring their leader who was seen as a deity.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:24:08 PM EDT

[#44]

The arsenal mark on the bayonet indicates it was made at

The Koishikawa Arsenal (Tokyo), if it was made between 1870-1935

or

The Kokura Arsenal if it was made between 1935-1945

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:24:49 PM EDT

[#45]

Man, I want a official war rifle trophy chit thing. We need to re-instate that....that would rock.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:25:13 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Well, out of 22,060 defenders, only 216 were captured. Not too many "alive" guys to take a rifle from.

Actually I think it is more of a matter of a rifle taken from a Jap on the battlefield, vice one surrendered en-mass at the end of the war. Generally people think the mums were ground off by the Japanese after surrender. But it looks like we also ground them off as part of an agreement.

Posted: 9/6/2011 2:25:20 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I remember a few years back in Japan there was a movement to start "pressuring" our government to force the return of family heirloom swords that were captured during WW2. I say they can kiss our asses!

Yeah, good luck with that Japan.

I say it YOUR family heirloom now!