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Posted: 7/31/2012 5:29:30 PM EDT
Went to visit the B-24 "Witchcraft" and B-17 "Nine-O-Nine" at a local
airport and both engines were being worked on. We were told the B-24 had "lost" an engine earlier that day. B-24:    B-17    |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 5:34:15 PM EDT
[#1]
Large jugs.
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Posted: 7/31/2012 5:34:15 PM EDT
[#2]
Looks like they found it.
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Posted: 7/31/2012 5:35:19 PM EDT
[#3]
The dreaded 3 engine landing
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Posted: 7/31/2012 5:45:17 PM EDT
[#4]
Got to fly in that same B24 last October. One of the coolest things I've ever been able to do. Almost didn't happen though, because of engine problems, but ultimately they got her running.
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Posted: 7/31/2012 5:46:44 PM EDT
[#5]
If you sit here and think about it, the mechanics and the men that kept those planes flying in WW2 are genius's. Keeping those very complex engines running with crude tools. They are better mechanics than i will ever be.
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Posted: 7/31/2012 5:50:03 PM EDT
[#6]
I got to walk through both of them about 2 months ago, it was an experience everyone should be able to have, I hope they are able to keep these old birds going.
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:00:28 PM EDT
[#7]
God damn! I remember having to break out the prop governor catch pan (aka HD homer bucket) all the time at my old job. Of course that did nothing for the rest of the leaks on the engine.
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:01:46 PM EDT
[#8]
Neat!
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:01:48 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: I got to walk through both of them about 2 months ago, it was an experience everyone should be able to have, I hope they are able to keep these old birds going. $12 ticket allowed you to walk through both planes today. |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:02:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
God damn! I remember having to break out the prop governor catch pan (aka HD homer bucket) all the time at my old job. Of course that did nothing for the rest of the leaks on the engine. More Homer buckets! |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:02:37 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: God damn! I remember having to break out the prop governor catch pan (aka HD homer bucket) all the time at my old job. Of course that did nothing for the rest of the leaks on the engine. Why do radial engines have so many oil leaks? |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:03:37 PM EDT
[#12]
I'm flying on Aluminum Overcast (B17) in two weeks. |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:04:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
God damn! I remember having to break out the prop governor catch pan (aka HD homer bucket) all the time at my old job. Of course that did nothing for the rest of the leaks on the engine. Why do radial engines have so many oil leaks? To mark their territory as the proudest engines in the world. |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:06:37 PM EDT
[#14]
Awesome pics.......thanks for sharing.
vmax84 |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:07:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: might be like other planes where they leak til theyre up to temp in the air.Quoted: God damn! I remember having to break out the prop governor catch pan (aka HD homer bucket) all the time at my old job. Of course that did nothing for the rest of the leaks on the engine. Why do radial engines have so many oil leaks? or theyre just naturally leaky |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:12:39 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Quoted: might be like other planes where they leak til theyre up to temp in the air.Quoted: God damn! I remember having to break out the prop governor catch pan (aka HD homer bucket) all the time at my old job. Of course that did nothing for the rest of the leaks on the engine. Why do radial engines have so many oil leaks? or theyre just naturally leaky I remember watching a show about the B-17s and it was mentioned that at cruising speed the engines used X gallons of av-gas and Y gallons of oil per hour. So I take it that even at temp the engines burn or leak oil. |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:14:52 PM EDT
[#17]
I flew on Witchcraft last summer. Was going to fly on Nine O Nine but it had mechanical problems and was delayed in Colorado.
Great time
Cool pics |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:17:27 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
might be like other planes where they leak til theyre up to temp in the air.
Quoted:
God damn! I remember having to break out the prop governor catch pan (aka HD homer bucket) all the time at my old job. Of course that did nothing for the rest of the leaks on the engine. Why do radial engines have so many oil leaks? or theyre just naturally leaky I remember watching a show about the B-17s and it was mentioned that at cruising speed the engines used X gallons of av-gas and Y gallons of oil per hour. So I take it that even at temp the engines burn or leak oil. In an engine with the valves on the top or sides of an engine the oil all collects down in the oil pan on the bottom of the engine. In radials the valves on the bottom cylinders are on the bottom of the engine. Oil will get past the rings on the bottom cylinders and drip out. Oil is just fucking everywhere on radial engines. |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:21:12 PM EDT
[#19]
Interesting. Nowadays *one* single seater fighter jet has multiple times the power of just one of those classic WWII work horses.
maximum bomb-load WWII 5,000 to 6,000 lbs payload versus an F15 with 16,000 lbs. "In the China Burma India (CBI) theater, one RAF commander stripped his B-24’s of what he considered excess weight (including all centerline guns) and carried 8,000 lb bomb loads at night to Bangkok, a round trip of over 2,100 miles, and 12,000 lb to Rangoon, a round trip of over 1,400 miles." 
you get what you pay for. unit cost B24, $297627 ($4.7 million in today's dollars) unit cost F15 about $45 to $60 Million a copy depending on avionics F22 $350 million per copy. B2 bomber cost approximately $2.1 billion WUT???? I repeat ..... 
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:22:55 PM EDT
[#20]
Found the following post on an aviation forum.
"Why do the engines leak so much? The problem starts when the engine stops leaking. If a radial engine stops leaking, then it's out of oil, and that's bad. When pushrod tube seals are clamped in place using band clamps over rubber hoses, when rocker box through-bolts are sealed with o-rings held against bolts with loose enough tension to only require castelated nuts, when there's no end of parts with the clearance to pass oil, when oil congregates in the lower part of the engine by virtue of gravity and design and gets blown out exhausts on start up...you're going to find oil dripping from the engine. I've spent a reasonable amount of time piloting radial engine airplanes, and a lot more working on them. Whomever thought up the idea of white shirts for pilots around airplanes was an idiot. Especially in times of radial engines. In motors like the R2600, typical consumption runs about three gallons an hour. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Some powerplants leak or burn less than others, and the type of operation has a lot to do with it, too. Suffice it to say that when taking on fuel, nearly always one endevors to fill it up with oil, too. We often operated for three or four hours before fueling, and would end up putting in 40 to 60 gallons of oil while refueling." |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:24:12 PM EDT
[#21]
Got pix of the 17 flying over Carmel today. It circled the pool. Was very neat. People were looking at me like I was nuts as I was snapping pix
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:24:15 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
If you sit here and think about it, the mechanics and the men that kept those planes flying in WW2 are genius's. Keeping those very complex engines running with crude tools. They are better mechanics than i will ever be. I concur 100%. Those engines were large, complex, and often hurried into service. To think, an average heavy bomb group would have around 75 planes. That's 300 engines. They are all finicky, need to be ready and able to haul their crews for eight hours. They lost face if a plane aborted for mechanical issues. And yet they did it. Hundreds of missions. Over and over again. Truly the unsung heroes. |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:29:43 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you sit here and think about it, the mechanics and the men that kept those planes flying in WW2 are genius's. Keeping those very complex engines running with crude tools. They are better mechanics than i will ever be. I concur 100%. Those engines were large, complex, and often hurried into service. To think, an average heavy bomb group would have around 75 planes. That's 300 engines. They are all finicky, need to be ready and able to haul their crews for eight hours. They lost face if a plane aborted for mechanical issues. And yet they did it. Hundreds of missions. Over and over again. Truly the unsung heroes. And they were mostly all about 20 years old,too. |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:30:23 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: God damn! I remember having to break out the prop governor catch pan (aka HD homer bucket) all the time at my old job. Of course that did nothing for the rest of the leaks on the engine. Why do radial engines have so many oil leaks? Because they are either built by Harley Davidson or any British manufacturer.  |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:30:40 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Quoted: If you sit here and think about it, the mechanics and the men that kept those planes flying in WW2 are genius's. Keeping those very complex engines running with crude tools. They are better mechanics than i will ever be. I concur 100%. Those engines were large, complex, and often hurried into service. To think, an average heavy bomb group would have around 75 planes. That's 300 engines. They are all finicky, need to be ready and able to haul their crews for eight hours. They lost face if a plane aborted for mechanical issues. And yet they did it. Hundreds of missions. Over and over again. Truly the unsung heroes. My grandpa was a radial engine mechanic during WW2. Going from my faulty memory, I believe he said that there were four mechanics per fighter plane. One worked on the prop and the gear housing that control blade pitch, one worked on the cylinder heads or "jugs". I don't remember what grandpa's job was, but I do remember him saying he wasn't authorized to remove the jugs, or work on the prop. Grandpa was stationed in the Panama Canal zone, so they probably operated under different regulations than squadrons in the war zones. I would imagine under combat conditions the mechanics did everything and anything they could do to get the birds flying. |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:33:59 PM EDT
[#26]
BWAHAHAhahaha.....
We often operated for three or four hours before fueling, and would end up putting in 40 to 60 gallons of oil while refueling.
....just a summer drive
"I'm going for an afternoon drive to the Augusta vineyards, can I get 50 gallons of Mobil 1 5-30W To-Go please?" 
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:34:55 PM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:49:30 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
If you sit here and think about it, the mechanics and the men that kept those planes flying in WW2 are genius's. Keeping those very complex engines running with crude tools. They are better mechanics than i will ever be. They didn't have "crude" tools, they had the right tools for the job at the time. 
After a certain point in the war the planes were considered to be consumable items. 
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:53:43 PM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 7/31/2012 6:58:17 PM EDT
[#30]
Here's an excerpt from the B-36 flight manual about the oil system.
http://books.google.com/books?id=eflKhY26inwC&pg=PA335&lpg=PA335&dq=B-36+oil+consumption&source=bl&ots=dqkYKpXtot&sig=3fIDkXpttjst5-TFXFetrzd5leY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=a5oYUOvyGofxigKApYHwBg&ved=0CKYCEOgBMAk#v=onepage&q=B-36%20oil%20consumption&f=false Pratt & Whitney R-4360-53 "Wasp Major" radials |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 7:19:25 PM EDT
[#31]
I flew in Witchcraft about four years ago. Absolutely one of the coolest things I've ever done was to sit in my grandfather's seat in the nose and look through the Norden bomb sight from several thousand feet.
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Posted: 7/31/2012 7:20:46 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Built Ford Tough  What amazes me about those pics is that you are looking at a snapshot of production in one factory during war time in the US. ALL of those planes and they were rushing them out as fast as they could. 24 7 36. Just spewing planes out. Before that pic they were doing it and after that pic they were doing it. For years. And that is one factory. All sorts of factories, doing the same thing, at the same time, all the time. The sheer immensity of the American industrial machine during WWII is downright awe inspiring. How could an enemy not face palm when considering just what Americans could produce? And do it in quality and quantity. |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 7:26:31 PM EDT
[#33]
I spent the night on an older couple's easy chair the other day. The gentleman, in his 90s now, was shot down in a B24 in north Africa. There was over five miles of debris. They rode it down. He was one of three survivors of the crew of 20 and spent a year in the hospital afterwards.
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Posted: 7/31/2012 8:51:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Yeah, the radials required some hefty oil tanks ..........
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Posted: 7/31/2012 8:54:31 PM EDT
[#35]
Since this is an airplane thread anyone know what V1 is and why it is so important to airplanes? (not a rocket btw...)
Relates to decision speed. |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 9:23:53 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Since this is an airplane thread anyone know what V1 is and why it is so important to airplanes? (not a rocket btw...) Relates to decision speed. As a little kid watching 'UFO', I remember wondering the same thing when the crew called out "V1" and "VR" as the transport planes took off. On retrospect that was a nice touch for such a hokey show.
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Posted: 7/31/2012 9:29:28 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Since this is an airplane thread anyone know what V1 is and why it is so important to airplanes? (not a rocket btw...) Relates to decision speed. Last chance to hit the brakes if you lose an engine. |
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Posted: 7/31/2012 9:30:54 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Since this is an airplane thread anyone know what V1 is and why it is so important to airplanes? (not a rocket btw...) Relates to decision speed. I do. |
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Posted: 8/1/2012 12:05:31 AM EDT
[#39]
I have been fortunate enough to have flown in both Witchcraft, and Aluminum Overcast.
IMHO, the best rides were: In the B-17, in the nose at the navigator and bombardier positions In the B-24, at the waist guns (more room to move around and see) |
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Posted: 8/1/2012 4:39:04 PM EDT
[#40]
Flew in it back when it was "Dragon and his Tail"
Great flight, noisy, windy, smelled of fuel while on the tarmac. It was fantastic. Grew up hearing B24 stories from Great Uncle Jack, had to go fly no matter the cost. |
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Posted: 8/1/2012 5:23:25 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you sit here and think about it, the mechanics and the men that kept those planes flying in WW2 are genius's. Keeping those very complex engines running with crude tools. They are better mechanics than i will ever be. I concur 100%. Those engines were large, complex, and often hurried into service. To think, an average heavy bomb group would have around 75 planes. That's 300 engines. They are all finicky, need to be ready and able to haul their crews for eight hours. They lost face if a plane aborted for mechanical issues. And yet they did it. Hundreds of missions. Over and over again. Truly the unsung heroes. In the most cases in WW2 the engines were rarely fixed in the field. Simple routine maintenance was one thing, serious damage the engine was yanked crated and sent back to the Depot for rebuild. |
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Posted: 8/1/2012 5:27:39 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Since this is an airplane thread anyone know what V1 is and why it is so important to airplanes? (not a rocket btw...) Relates to decision speed. Point of no return. |
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Posted: 8/1/2012 5:30:41 PM EDT
[#43]
Witchcraft was built in Fort Worth and may be the only Fort Worth built B-24 still in existance.
I'll have to research that when I get some down time later tonight.... |
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Posted: 8/1/2012 10:00:34 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Found the following post on an aviation forum. "Why do the engines leak so much? The problem starts when the engine stops leaking. If a radial engine stops leaking, then it's out of oil, and that's bad. When pushrod tube seals are clamped in place using band clamps over rubber hoses, when rocker box through-bolts are sealed with o-rings held against bolts with loose enough tension to only require castelated nuts, when there's no end of parts with the clearance to pass oil, when oil congregates in the lower part of the engine by virtue of gravity and design and gets blown out exhausts on start up...you're going to find oil dripping from the engine. I've spent a reasonable amount of time piloting radial engine airplanes, and a lot more working on them. Whomever thought up the idea of white shirts for pilots around airplanes was an idiot. Especially in times of radial engines. In motors like the R2600, typical consumption runs about three gallons an hour. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Some powerplants leak or burn less than others, and the type of operation has a lot to do with it, too. Suffice it to say that when taking on fuel, nearly always one endevors to fill it up with oil, too. We often operated for three or four hours before fueling, and would end up putting in 40 to 60 gallons of oil while refueling." If I remember right, when I worked on the Convairs (P&W R2800), the engine pylons housed a 40 gal oil tank, and in the back of the aircraft, there was a supplemental oil tank that was 60 gals on the CV240's, and 80 gals on the CV340 and CV440. Now don't think that your modern jet engine doesn't leak oil either. The Pratt JT8 series, we constantly joke that the oil on the outside of the cowl is Pratt's "Exterior Visual Oil Quantity Indicator," if you don't see oil, you're out! |
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Posted: 8/1/2012 10:03:33 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Since this is an airplane thread anyone know what V1 is and why it is so important to airplanes? (not a rocket btw...) Relates to decision speed. Point of no return. Nice that was a quick correct answer. Good job. |
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Posted: 8/1/2012 10:23:56 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Built Ford Tough What amazes me about those pics is that you are looking at a snapshot of production in one factory during war time in the US. ALL of those planes and they were rushing them out as fast as they could. 24 7 36. Just spewing planes out. Before that pic they were doing it and after that pic they were doing it. For years. And that is one factory. All sorts of factories, doing the same thing, at the same time, all the time. The sheer immensity of the American industrial machine during WWII is downright awe inspiring. How could an enemy not face palm when considering just what Americans could produce? And do it in quality and quantity. If memory serves, the Consolidated Vultee plant at Fort Worth reached a peak production rate of 320 B24 bombers per month (over 10 a day) in 1943, and that was just one plant of three others making them. Willow Run Michigan was another big producer, IIRC, and peaked production at 650 /mo. in 1944. The US drowned the 3rd Reich under its war materiel production. Interesting photos can be found by googling "B 24 production at Willow Run". |
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