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Posted: 8/12/2012 3:58:07 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
lower middle 20k-35k true middle class 35k-70k upper middle class 70k-100k Maybe where you live. Here, I'd add at least another $10k to each of those. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:04:34 PM EDT
[#2]
High enough to know how to spell "salary".
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:05:14 PM EDT
[#3]
It has very little to do with your salary. I know someone that makes $400K/yr and has a net worth that's negative. Meaning, if they lost their job tomorrow, they'd have - quite literally - nothing. In other words, despite their relatively high salary, they live well beyond their means and are in significant debt. He does it to maintain a lifestyle. To see him on the street, or drive by, or visit his home, you'd think he was a 1%'er.
On the other hand, I know several families that haven't ever made more than $60K/yr and have well over $1M in cash in the bank from saving and investing. As someone else put it, middle class is everyone who doesn't meet the definition of "poor" or "rich". Those definitions vary, depending on the context. Many of us would classify anyone who makes $400K/yr as "rich" regardless of his net worth - see my example above. On the other hand, many of us would classify someone who makes $20K/yr as "poor" regardless of his net worth. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:06:15 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
Class distinctions have little to do with salary. Upper class has NOTHING to do with salary. To an economist, your economic class is determined by your income. It might be salary, wages, interest from treasury bonds purchased in the last century, rents/royalties received, dividends from investments or capital gains from same. None of which has any thing to do with social class, or style, or whatever you want to call it. Not a very sensible system, but a useful one for looking at large numbers of peoples, not individuals. It's an interesting exercise to distinguish an "economic class from a "social" class, but focusing purely on income misses the boat, IM not so HO. One can live a comfortable middle class life on a lower salary if one is already well established in the middle class - family and social connections come into play. Established upper class people can start and fail businesses left and right, and never really have to worry about losing their lifestyle. All of these people are capable of spending far more than they make or help others to make, and putting succeeding generations at risk - but the higher your social class, the more safety nets, generally. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:08:02 PM EDT
[#5]
This is about it. The problem is I don't consider the people making $200K rich.
Quoted:
lower middle 20k-35k true middle class 35k-70k upper middle class 70k-100k |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:11:50 PM EDT
[#6]
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Single - $40k Family - $60k sounds about right Not here, You want to live like grand pa did in the 50's. You need at least 100k. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:14:16 PM EDT
[#7]
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Single - $40k Family - $60k sounds about right Not here, You want to live like grand pa did in the 50's. You need at least 100k. My grandpa lived in a tiny house, saved no money, could not afford to send any of his kids to college, and died broke. I can do that anywhere in the US for less. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:15:11 PM EDT
[#8]
You can't base it on a dollar figure. There is too much variability in local prices. The mortgage payment on multiple acres and a huge house in the middle of nowhere will be less than the rent on a small apartment in a nice neighborhood of a big city.
Economic class is based on the type of job. Lower: Blue collar laborers. Hourly wage. Middle: White collar professionals. Yearly salary. Yes, doctors and lawyers are middle class. Upper: Don't really need to wear a collar, but some have a job anyway. Income = interest and investments. Social class is something else. It's not based on income, but behavior. Most Americans don't understand social class. We all like to consider ourselves to be upper middle class so we don't have the distinctive class-based mannerisms like the Brits. It's most obvious in things like the amount of "personal space" that is comfortable for each individual. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:16:11 PM EDT
[#9]
Found a a good Wikipedia article, FWIW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_States
Here's an an interesting chart, looking at three dimensions - income, education level, and type of work. 
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:29:27 PM EDT
[#10]
That chart doesn't take into account people like me.
High school graduate, blue collar worker, investor, speculator. As I said, the concept of class might apply to large numbers, but when applied to individuals, it loses most of its meaning. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:32:25 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Found a a good Wikipedia article, FWIW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_States Here's an an interesting chart, looking at three dimensions - income, education level, and type of work. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e5/Class_US.svg According to that chart I'm not where I need to be with my blue collar work and my little BSBA. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:33:07 PM EDT
[#12]
Wife makes $40k plus benefits. (extra ~10k a year is automatically added to her retirement plan which appreciates about 12% a year)
We have about $0 in debt. I make approximately $0  but I'm working on an engineering degree. I'm not taking loans.
We are still middle class, even though I'm currently unemployed. Savings is important. I know people that make much more, have much nicer things, but are one layoff away from losing everything. We live somewhat frugally, and can maintain our lifestyle even on the wife's wages alone. If you spend and save wisely, you can maintain your lifestyle regardless of income. (within reason) |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:35:39 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Found a a good Wikipedia article, FWIW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class_in_the_United_States Here's an an interesting chart, looking at three dimensions - income, education level, and type of work. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e5/Class_US.svg That chart is seven bloody years old, get me a new one ! |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:38:14 PM EDT
[#14]
That would vary tremendously depending on where you live.
What constitutes a middle class income in fly over country might not be anything like a middle class income in NYC or LA. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:41:57 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
You can't base it on a dollar figure. There is too much variability in local prices. The mortgage payment on multiple acres and a huge house in the middle of nowhere will be less than the rent on a small apartment in a nice neighborhood of a big city. Economic class is based on the type of job. Lower: Blue collar laborers. Hourly wage. Middle: White collar professionals. Yearly salary. Yes, doctors and lawyers are middle class. Upper: Don't really need to wear a collar, but some have a job anyway. Income = interest and investments. Social class is something else. It's not based on income, but behavior. Most Americans don't understand social class. We all like to consider ourselves to be upper middle class so we don't have the distinctive class-based mannerisms like the Brits. It's most obvious in things like the amount of "personal space" that is comfortable for each individual. I would say we do indeed have distinctive class-based mannerisms. You can see it here in GD. The working class / middle class distinction is plainly evident in any thread about education, or travel, or a number of other topics. It's fascinating to watch - people really identify with their class, even if they don't agree with the term to use for it. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:43:54 PM EDT
[#16]
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Class distinctions have little to do with salary. Upper class has NOTHING to do with salary. That all depends on what definitions one chooses to employ. It would be willfully ignorant to deny that in America income is generally the most popular determinant of social class. That essay you posted in previous thread about social classes was a good read, too. Was JFK Jr. ever middle or a lower class, even as an unemployed schmuck who couldn't pass the bar? Was he ever not from a wealthy, powerful, well connected family? I would argue that one's social class is actually a better predictor of income / earnings potential than the other way around. I wouldn't call anyone upper class if they actually needed to work - those in the upper classes have properties and interests to such extent that they generate plenty of cash flow. The middle class, or bourgeoisie, that historically made up the merchants and professionals of a society have historically been self-employed, employers themselves, or - at the very least - salaried professionals. The idea that the middle class even included hourly wage earners is a very recent concept. One key aspect of middle class people was connections to property - usually at least home ownership and/or small business ownership, and access to education. This, of course, can mean a wide range of actual incomes or assets values, varying greatly based on region. Much of the "middle class" rhetoric in politics is actually about working class people getting paid enough to live on par with traditional middle class people. This was the "achievement" of unions, etc. in the 20th century. Whether this is sustainable or not is a different story entirely. That, combined with free flowing credit, has caused a lot of people to think themselves middle class despite actually owning nothing, and owing more to a bank than they own in assets. The sustainability of this kind of lifestyle is also questionable. Much of the politics of America has been based on the idea that nearly all of us think of ourselves as middle class - from the wealthiest executives to the most meager wage earner. Then we have the welfare rates that seem to live better than the latter, but I digress. I don't necessarily disagree with any of that. But, it is still only one of many opinions/definitions regarding a complex subject. I don't know what I did with that essay I used to have, and can't find it online now - but that guy has pretty solid insights. 
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:44:15 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
That would vary tremendously depending on where you live. What constitutes a middle class income in fly over country might not be anything like a middle class income in NYC or LA. True dat. Here in Calgary $60K is considered minimum wage. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:50:06 PM EDT
[#18]
I remember watching MTV one time (back when they actually played videos and interviewed performers), and one thug mentioned something cost him $50k.
The VJ (  ) remarked "And for those of you at home, that's probably more than your parents make in a year!"
I agree with $40k single, $60k family. Quoted:
"Lower middle class" in your hierarchy would be "poor" in mine. Sure, they're not on welfare, but they're definitely not buying a house. I think upper middle class starts at 70k for single, 100k for a family, with "upper class" starting around $150k/yr.
lower middle 20k-35k true middle class 35k-70k upper middle class 70k-100k Kharn |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 4:54:34 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
That chart doesn't take into account people like me. High school graduate, blue collar worker, investor, speculator. As I said, the concept of class might apply to large numbers, but when applied to individuals, it loses most of its meaning. It's nothing precise, it's more useful in showing the various factors. If you investing and speculating put you in a higher income bracket, it really doesn't stop you from being working class. Your kids, depending on how you raise them, might become middle class. When a professional athlete, despite making millions, still is compelled to arrange dogfights - that's class speaking. When a guy who wins the lottery blows it all on hooker and blow, that's class speaking. When a contractor wins the same lottery, and uses it to grow his business, but still works almost everyday because he feels useless otherwise, that's class speaking. When Chelsea Clinton goes to Stanford and majors in History, then on to Graduate school getting Masters Degrees in Public Health and International Relations, and is offered a job as an investment analyst making 400,000 a year starting out? That's class talking. When the work is not to her liking, so she decided to enroll in a PhD program, it's still talking. Investment analysis is hard, middle class work, regardless of how much it pays. When she gets offered a job with NBC as a commentator, it is screaming. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 5:14:28 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Single - $40k Family - $60k I'd agree. Most single people that are middle class likely make less then that though. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 5:22:30 PM EDT
[#21]
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Was JFK Jr. ever middle or a lower class, even as an unemployed schmuck who couldn't pass the bar? Was he ever not from a wealthy, powerful, well connected family? No - hence my point. It is about so much more than one individual's income. Family and social connections / attitudes cannot be separated from the discussion. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 5:27:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
lower middle 20k-35k true middle class 35k-70k upper middle class 70k-100k Maybe where you live. Here, I'd add at least another $10k to each of those. At least 10k the wife and I combined make about 130k and live what i consider a middle class lifestyle. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 5:30:52 PM EDT
[#23]
I don't live anywhere expensive and see middle class single income 50k to 150k. I really don't see how people get buy on less than 50k.
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Posted: 8/12/2012 5:31:55 PM EDT
[#24]
The problem with this question is that the term has changed over time. Today, EVERYONE wants to call themselves middle class. Originally, middle class meant upper income, not rich, but above working class. It would have been poor, working class, middle class, wealthy.
High paying unskilled jobs, particularly in the auto industry, skewed the definition. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 5:39:58 PM EDT
[#25]
Assuming a married couple net gross income
Lower income <$35,000 Middle Class $35,000-$100,000 but really varies by geography. Metro areas and big cities can exceed $100,000. Grey area: $100,000-$150,000. Really depends on family situation and geography. $100,000 in Iowa is much different than $100,000 in NYC. Upper class >$150,000 I made my ranges large since kids and housing are a big factor in determining living costs. A lot of the "middle class" is a mentality, regardless of income. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 5:46:44 PM EDT
[#26]
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Depends on where you live. I agree. My property taxes are $14,000 a year for a 75x100 with a 3 bedroom 2 bathroom split level. Family of 4 here needs at least 125-150 a year. Holy Shit man....Mine run around $700 a year for 2500sq House on 2 acres 5 miles outside the city in the county
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Posted: 8/12/2012 5:51:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Depends on where you live. Yup. Middle class in nashville is 100k-200k. Im 29 making +/- 50k base and im sure as shit not middle class |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 5:52:21 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: You should clarify whether single or couple for the salary to be considered middle class. $60k & Single = is living very very very well. $60k & a wife with 3 kids.... not middle class. Actually, that kind of is middle class, still. Single will get raped with income taxes. A guy with three kids ($3000 of child tax credit) will pay very little in the way of income tax when all is said and done. I know from past 1040's done for family, that a couple making $40,000 and having two kids will pay zero income taxes in total thanks to the child tax credit, so at a rough guess, a family with 3 kids can earn about $50K per year and pay no taxes. So our $60K probably pays about $1000 in income taxes for the whole year. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 5:55:12 PM EDT
[#29]
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Depends on where you live. I agree. My property taxes are $14,000 a year for a 75x100 with a 3 bedroom 2 bathroom split level. Family of 4 here needs at least 125-150 a year. Holy crap! What is your property tax rate? |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 5:55:29 PM EDT
[#30]
Depending on where you live, Middle class can be from 45k to 200k per year for a family
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Posted: 8/12/2012 5:57:48 PM EDT
[#31]
Yep, middle class in NYC, DC, LA or SF is significantly different then other places.
Quoted:
Quoted:
Depends on where you live. This. It's all relevant. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:16:43 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Quoted: Did I make it in before military members start getting mad people concider them lower class based on thier salary? Generally, I would say enlisted military jobs have traditionally been considered working class, and officers are considered middle class. Career enlisted military are mostly middle class these days. I got called back to active duty from 2009-2011, as an E-6 with 12 years in I was taking home about $4300 a month net and got a $7700 tax refund on top of that for 2010 because only base pay is taxable and the wife wasn't working. Back in the reserves now and making about $75k a year with my civilian job and reserves combined and I net around the same but will have to actually pay taxes on the whole amount. I tell the enlisted guys all the time about what it is equivalent to on the outside, E-4 is about 50-55k, E-5 is 60-65k, E-6 is 70-75k, E-7 is 80k+, etc, etc. Half the time they glaze over and say "I can make $20-25 an hour on the outside" That's around 45-55k a year not counting having to pay taxes on the whole amount and medical premiums. Depends on location and duty also, I have had years in the military as an E-5 or E-6 where I probably made the equivalent of a 100k a year civilian. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:22:20 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
I live like I am poor. I could support my lifestyle on $10/hr. I make what the poll would consider middle class though. Can you give a rundown of what your typical monthly expenses are? I've been trying to cut to the bone but am lacking in discipline. Tough to give up good coffee, netflix, iphone, etc. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:23:04 PM EDT
[#34]
The answer depends completely on where you live.
Here - $100K makes you middle class. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:25:23 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
I don't live anywhere expensive and see middle class single income 50k to 150k. I really don't see how people get buy on less than 50k. When I was enlisted living off base my take home after taxes was around $24,000 a year. It's called being single and driving used cars
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:26:19 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
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Did I make it in before military members start getting mad people concider them lower class based on thier salary? Generally, I would say enlisted military jobs have traditionally been considered working class, and officers are considered middle class. Career enlisted military are mostly middle class these days. I got called back to active duty from 2009-2011, as an E-6 with 12 years in I was taking home about $4300 a month net and got a $7700 tax refund on top of that for 2010 because only base pay is taxable and the wife wasn't working. Back in the reserves now and making about $75k a year with my civilian job and reserves combined and I net around the same but will have to actually pay taxes on the whole amount. I tell the enlisted guys all the time about what it is equivalent to on the outside, E-4 is about 50-55k, E-5 is 60-65k, E-6 is 70-75k, E-7 is 80k+, etc, etc. Half the time they glaze over and say "I can make $20-25 an hour on the outside" That's around 45-55k a year not counting having to pay taxes on the whole amount and medical premiums. Depends on location and duty also, I have had years in the military as an E-5 or E-6 where I probably made the equivalent of a 100k a year civilian. Switching to the all volunteer force caused GI pay to skyrocket relative to what it had been traditionally, the increasing focus on NCO "professionalization" has further blurred "class" distinctions - now, it is not unusual for a Sergeant First Class's kid to go to college and pursue a commission, or a LTC's kid to enlist for a few years out of high school. That was a very rare thing 40 years ago - almost unheard of. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:36:18 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
lower middle 20k-35k true middle class 35k-70k upper middle class 70k-100k Maybe where you live. Here, I'd add at least another $10k to each of those. At least 10k the wife and I combined make about 130k and live what i consider a middle class lifestyle. While it might feel that way to live what we think/feel and have been told is a middle class lifestyle, according to the US Census the median household income in Colorado for 2011 is $56,465. The per capita income in Colorado (average individual wage earner) is $30,151. Economically, that means those numbers are the middle of the economic middle class in Colorado. Personally, I don't think my family could live on $56K in Colordo or anywhere in the U.S., but what I consider a middle class lifestyle is probably far different than those households that are living on close to the Colorado median household income of $56K. For an interesting comparison, take a look where I live in Douglas County. According to Forbes, Douglas county is the 7th wealthiest county in the U.S. with a median household income of $99,198. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:38:59 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
You should clarify whether single or couple for the salary to be considered middle class. $60k & Single = is living very very very well. $60k & a wife with 3 kids.... not middle class. This assessment sums it up, good job. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:40:36 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Did I make it in before military members start getting mad people concider them lower class based on thier salary? Generally, I would say enlisted military jobs have traditionally been considered working class, and officers are considered middle class. Career enlisted military are mostly middle class these days. I got called back to active duty from 2009-2011, as an E-6 with 12 years in I was taking home about $4300 a month net and got a $7700 tax refund on top of that for 2010 because only base pay is taxable and the wife wasn't working. Back in the reserves now and making about $75k a year with my civilian job and reserves combined and I net around the same but will have to actually pay taxes on the whole amount. I tell the enlisted guys all the time about what it is equivalent to on the outside, E-4 is about 50-55k, E-5 is 60-65k, E-6 is 70-75k, E-7 is 80k+, etc, etc. Half the time they glaze over and say "I can make $20-25 an hour on the outside" That's around 45-55k a year not counting having to pay taxes on the whole amount and medical premiums. Depends on location and duty also, I have had years in the military as an E-5 or E-6 where I probably made the equivalent of a 100k a year civilian. Switching to the all volunteer force caused GI pay to skyrocket relative to what it had been traditionally, the increasing focus on NCO "professionalization" has further blurred "class" distinctions - now, it is not unusual for a Sergeant First Class's kid to go to college and pursue a commission, or a LTC's kid to enlist for a few years out of high school. That was a very rare thing 40 years ago - almost unheard of. I'm suprised no ones tried to do away with the whole enlisted/officer thing. At this point most enlisted are better or equally edjucated then most officers. I understand why it started and was nessicary when the majority of the population could barely read at a 5th grade level so you needed an edjucated officer corp to 'lead the men'. You can't convince me the average E-x can't do the average 0-x's job. All it would take is to restructure into maybe a 12 tier rank system, where the top 3-4 act as in current officer positions and do away with all the desk jobs that 0-1 to about 0-4 do and replace them with E-7's and E-8's (who would basiclly be mid-career NCO's). |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:41:14 PM EDT
[#40]
Average household income in TN is about $36K or so.
$30K is what I voted. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:44:23 PM EDT
[#41]
I dunno, my wife and I make north of 100k w/o kids. We live around Atlanta. We sock away 20% into savings which seems about right for those of us that will never see SS. Besides mortgage we don't have many bills. I sure don't feel like I'm in the lower upper class or even the upper middle class. I would say 50k per income earner and 25k per kid to be middle class. Of course the kids dont work but the family income does.
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:45:10 PM EDT
[#42]
This is going to vary quite a bit in different areas due to cost of living.
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:46:57 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Did I make it in before military members start getting mad people concider them lower class based on thier salary? Free food, housing, utilities, and health care on top of your salary? the 4 most costly expense in a person's life... They shouldn't cry too loud
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:47:20 PM EDT
[#44]
I didn't see anyone call out the OP on using "salery" in the thread title. GD is slipping.
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:47:25 PM EDT
[#45]
$75K for a single family.
If you think it is any less than that, you are only kidding yourself into thinking you have a better job than you really do. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:48:40 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
lower middle 20k-35k true middle class 35k-70k upper middle class 70k-100k I agree. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:48:57 PM EDT
[#47]
I consider 50K and 75K to both be middle class.
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:49:56 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Depends on where you live. this |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:52:25 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Depends on where you live. Yup. Middle class in nashville is 100k-200k. Im 29 making +/- 50k base and im sure as shit not middle class $50k a year and you're poor? Unless housing cost $2500+ a month, I don't understand how you're poor. |
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Posted: 8/12/2012 6:52:35 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: Screw that, that's more than I pay a year for my mortgage (including taxes and PMI!)Quoted: Depends on where you live. I agree. My property taxes are $14,000 a year for a 75x100 with a 3 bedroom 2 bathroom split level. Family of 4 here needs at least 125-150 a year. |
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