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Posted: 5/9/2015 9:59:49 PM EDT
Not to ours, but to Canadians.
I recently ran across some information on oddball guns that were issued during ww2. The one that surprised me the most was that the Canadian government, fearing an invasion of British Columbia by the Japanese formed a voluntary militia group to perform reconnaissance group and to act as a guerrilla movement until the US & Canada could properly respond. The Canadian government asked people living in BC what they would be comfortable with and they responded heavily in favor of the Winchester 94 in 30-30. 
As payment for their service during the war without pay, the Canadian government allowed each soldier to buy their issued gun for a mere $5. The government would have spent over $100 per unit to buy them. 
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:01:35 PM EDT
[#1]
That would have been high on my list too.
Though not as high as a No.4 Mk.1 Very cool. ETA: now I'm thinking about putting an Enfield sling on mine. 
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:02:13 PM EDT
[#2]
Beware the man who only owns one gun. He probably knows how to use it.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:02:30 PM EDT
[#3]
Are you trying to tell me folks in BC did not already have model 94s?
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:02:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That would have been high on my list too. Though not as high as a No.4 Mk.1 Very cool. From what I read, early on the Canadians couldn't get any more No4Mk1s , but the US had some spare capacity to produce more '94s. Later on the militia got some Stens and No4Mk1s, but their official gun was the Winchester 94. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:03:38 PM EDT
[#5]
it was issued to game wardens and forest rangers not troops
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:03:43 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you trying to tell me folks in BC did not already have model 94s? Nope, they did, and it was enough that the Canadian government picked the 94 due to how many knew how to operate it. Additionally there are *some* records available saying that Marlin also sold some 336 to them as well. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:04:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I read, early on the Canadians couldn't get any more No4Mk1s , but the US had some spare capacity to produce more '94s. Later on the militia got some Stens and No4Mk1s, but their official gun was the Winchester 94. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
That would have been high on my list too. Though not as high as a No.4 Mk.1 Very cool. From what I read, early on the Canadians couldn't get any more No4Mk1s , but the US had some spare capacity to produce more '94s. Later on the militia got some Stens and No4Mk1s, but their official gun was the Winchester 94. Makes sense, frontline troops would have priority. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:04:51 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope, they did, and it was enough that the Canadian government picked the 94 due to how many knew how to operate it. Additionally there are *some* records available saying that Marlin also sold some 336 to them as well. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Are you trying to tell me folks in BC did not already have model 94s? Nope, they did, and it was enough that the Canadian government picked the 94 due to how many knew how to operate it. Additionally there are *some* records available saying that Marlin also sold some 336 to them as well. So why would they need to issue guns when the local folks had them and could use them? |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:04:59 PM EDT
[#9]
IIRC they were also issued to forest rangers or something similar in the Pacific Northwest, to defend against saboteurs.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:05:39 PM EDT
[#10]
The Canadian war department was quoted in a manual/magazine given to troops about their choice of the 94 - "If it killed a bear cleanly for you in the piping times of peace you can be quite sure that it will drill a Jap or any other unwholesome vermin who make the mistake of cluttering up our coast."
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:05:42 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Makes sense, frontline troops would have priority. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That would have been high on my list too. Though not as high as a No.4 Mk.1 Very cool. From what I read, early on the Canadians couldn't get any more No4Mk1s , but the US had some spare capacity to produce more '94s. Later on the militia got some Stens and No4Mk1s, but their official gun was the Winchester 94. Makes sense, frontline troops would have priority. Frontline troops were sent to England and Scotland to help prevent a German invasion. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:06:45 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
it was issued to game wardens and forest rangers not troops PCMR was an official military unit designated by the Canadian government during WW2 consisting of 15,000 troops at the end and 137 formed companies. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:09:01 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Frontline troops were sent to England and Scotland to help prevent a German invasion. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That would have been high on my list too. Though not as high as a No.4 Mk.1 Very cool. From what I read, early on the Canadians couldn't get any more No4Mk1s , but the US had some spare capacity to produce more '94s. Later on the militia got some Stens and No4Mk1s, but their official gun was the Winchester 94. Makes sense, frontline troops would have priority. Frontline troops were sent to England and Scotland to help prevent a German invasion. Yeah, and the rifles went with them. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:11:54 PM EDT
[#14]
Would not have felt undergunned with one, during those times.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:12:01 PM EDT
[#15]
[They were also issued in WWI by the US to the Signal Corp in the pacific northwest. Google "spruce guns"
http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?products_id=38680 |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:15:56 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would not have felt undergunned with one, during those times. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:17:36 PM EDT
[#17]
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Russians issued their old 1895s to some troops also.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:18:16 PM EDT
[#18]
Interesting. I can remember in the mid 70s selling Winchester 94s for $94 as a loss leader in my Sporting Goods shop.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:21:25 PM EDT
[#19]
Its a good choice, but make mine a marlin.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:23:11 PM EDT
[#20]
My first deer rifle was a pre-64 94 Win. 30-30. It was also our home / property defense rifle. I would not feel a bit undergunned today using it in a SHTF scenrio.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:25:35 PM EDT
[#21]
That's pretty cool.
Thanks for the post. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:28:54 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its a good choice, but make mine a marlin. I don't know about pre-64 Winchester 94s but the more recent ones feel like they're made with gravel. My 336 is much, much smoother. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:32:17 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would not have felt undergunned with one, during those times. The original Redneck Assault Rifle. And, yes, Canada has at least as many rednecks per capita as the U.S., if not more. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:37:22 PM EDT
[#24]
We issued them to our own troops in WWI.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:42:44 PM EDT
[#25]
Group pic of the Canuck Pacific Coast Militia.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:44:41 PM EDT
[#26]
Would've took it over a Mosin or 98k.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:46:18 PM EDT
[#27]
Article on the WWII Sprunce Rifle.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:46:49 PM EDT
[#28]
I'd take it with a smile on my face.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:49:34 PM EDT
[#29]
While his was a 1892 I think he would have been fine.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:51:37 PM EDT
[#30]
It poses an interesting hypothetical, imagine a small unit of Japanese saboteurs with Arisaka's encountered by militia wardens with type 94's in heavily wooded terrain of the Pacific Northwest.
Interesting tactically. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:54:44 PM EDT
[#31]
The only downside I see is the reload time. A bolt action loaded from a stripper clip would reload much faster.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:59:02 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The only downside I see is the reload time. A bolt action loaded from a stripper clip would reload much faster. Yes, the Arisaka csn be loaded faster but it can't be topped off. The 1894 can be topped off. The real difference would have been if the Jaos had their Type 11s with them. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 10:59:18 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While his was a 1892 I think he would have been fine. http://i.ytimg.com/vi/lNeySEOXUcI/maxresdefault.jpg Yeah I still watch that show on AMC on Saturday mornings. I don't think you can be a man and not watch it if it's on. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 11:08:44 PM EDT
[#34]
Cool bit of information OP, thanks for posting.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 11:13:59 PM EDT
[#35]
Hmmm thought this thread would be about Spruce guns.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 11:18:15 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can top off a '94 and keep it in the fight. Run a Lever Action like an 870. Never let the tube run dry. Yes, the Arisaka csn be loaded faster but it can't be topped off. The 1894 can be topped off. The real difference would have been if the Jaos had their Type 11s with them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The only downside I see is the reload time. A bolt action loaded from a stripper clip would reload much faster. Yes, the Arisaka csn be loaded faster but it can't be topped off. The 1894 can be topped off. The real difference would have been if the Jaos had their Type 11s with them. I once watched a guy shoot a tactical rifle match dressed like a cowboy and shooting a lever action rifle. He basically never had to stop to reload since he was always finding time to cram one or two rounds up the tube while moving from one position to another. He shot circles around my time with my K98k, and out shot a couple guys who had semi autos, too. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 11:26:35 PM EDT
[#37]
Thanks. I was not aware of the 1894 being issued by any modern government. Wasn't aware of the PCMRs either.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 11:31:30 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would've took it over a Mosin or 98k. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would've took it over a Mosin or 98k. Funny you should mention that. The US issued Mosins in and shortly after WWI: When Bolsheviks took power the U.S. contracts were cancelled. Remington and New England Westinghouse faced a terrible economic loss from both Russia defaulting on the balance of the weapons and because of the United States canceling the contracts due to not wanting to deliver weapons to the Bolsheviks. To save Rem-UMC and New England Westinghouse from bankruptcy the U.S. government purchase the most of the remaining, completed rifles at approximately $32 each. The majority of rifles purchased by the US were New England Westinghouse rifles. Most were used for military training purposes was given a temporary U.S. designation The U.S. Magazine Rifle calibre 7.62mm Model of 1916. The US made use of the American made M91s to train new Army recruits. US surcharged rifles were kept in the United States for SATC and other troop training; both the Colorado and the Alaska National Guard, to name a few, had to turn in their US rifles and were instead issued Mosins. Rifles were proofed and surcharged at a couple of US arsenals, many of them at Benicia Arsenal. Although most Mosin Nagant rifles that remained in the country were not surcharged but were given to the NRA after the war ended. Most were brand new when sold off by the NRA at $3.90 + $1.58 postage. The NRA was sold out of U.S. Mosins by 1929. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 11:40:50 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Would've took it over a Mosin or 98k. Funny you should mention that. The US issued Mosins in and shortly after WWI: When Bolsheviks took power the U.S. contracts were cancelled. Remington and New England Westinghouse faced a terrible economic loss from both Russia defaulting on the balance of the weapons and because of the United States canceling the contracts due to not wanting to deliver weapons to the Bolsheviks. To save Rem-UMC and New England Westinghouse from bankruptcy the U.S. government purchase the most of the remaining, completed rifles at approximately $32 each. The majority of rifles purchased by the US were New England Westinghouse rifles. Most were used for military training purposes was given a temporary U.S. designation The U.S. Magazine Rifle calibre 7.62mm Model of 1916. The US made use of the American made M91s to train new Army recruits. US surcharged rifles were kept in the United States for SATC and other troop training; both the Colorado and the Alaska National Guard, to name a few, had to turn in their US rifles and were instead issued Mosins. Rifles were proofed and surcharged at a couple of US arsenals, many of them at Benicia Arsenal. Although most Mosin Nagant rifles that remained in the country were not surcharged but were given to the NRA after the war ended. Most were brand new when sold off by the NRA at $3.90 + $1.58 postage. The NRA was sold out of U.S. Mosins by 1929. |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 11:44:39 PM EDT
[#40]
I have one in 44 Mag and some sort of special edition in 30-30. Such a great gun,
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Posted: 5/9/2015 11:45:14 PM EDT
[#41]
Lots of coastline, thick bush and few people. They wanted to put a comfortable gun in every hand that could help if needed.
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Posted: 5/9/2015 11:49:40 PM EDT
[#42]
very cool info OP
I wouldn't have felt under gunned back then with a 94 Carbine and S&W M1917 .45acp revolver even today that wouldn't be a terrible combo, not my first choice but it would get the job done |
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Posted: 5/9/2015 11:55:43 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can top off a '94 and keep it in the fight. Run a Lever Action like an 870. Never let the tube run dry. Yes, the Arisaka csn be loaded faster but it can't be topped off. The 1894 can be topped off. The real difference would have been if the Jaos had their Type 11s with them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The only downside I see is the reload time. A bolt action loaded from a stripper clip would reload much faster. Yes, the Arisaka csn be loaded faster but it can't be topped off. The 1894 can be topped off. The real difference would have been if the Jaos had their Type 11s with them. Makes sense, volume of fire is better on the lever potentially (didn't we determine that when we were comparing Krags to 1903's at the turn of the century?) but it's worse from the prone. How do the rounds compare ballisticly? |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 12:09:05 AM EDT
[#44]
I learned something today, thanks OP.
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Posted: 5/10/2015 12:15:43 AM EDT
[#45]
New clone thread!
My oldest 94 is from 1955...guess I'll have to keep looking. |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 12:31:35 AM EDT
[#46]
They issued Win 94's, P-17 Enfields and even Sten Guns.
They even issued ball ammo for them (Geneva Convention). Other sporting rifles of the day were popular as well, ie: Savage 99. In most of B.C. PCMR was made up of Loggers, Trappers, Miners, Guide Outfitters and other outdoorsmen too old for service, so the median age group would have been 30 to 60. In Vancouver, PCMR was made up of businessmen, clerks and working men. They were all relatively well armed and motivated After Pearl Harbor, the fear of Jap invasion was real and all kinds of defenses were constructed. They still exist on the UBC endowment lands in Vancouver. |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 12:31:57 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Makes sense, volume of fire is better on the lever potentially (didn't we determine that when we were comparing Krags to 1903's at the turn of the century?) but it's worse from the prone. How do the rounds compare ballisticly? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The only downside I see is the reload time. A bolt action loaded from a stripper clip would reload much faster. Yes, the Arisaka csn be loaded faster but it can't be topped off. The 1894 can be topped off. The real difference would have been if the Jaos had their Type 11s with them. Makes sense, volume of fire is better on the lever potentially (didn't we determine that when we were comparing Krags to 1903's at the turn of the century?) but it's worse from the prone. How do the rounds compare ballisticly? |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 12:41:07 AM EDT
[#48]
After the war, PCMR weapons were either turned into the B.C. Provincial Government or retained by members. That was somewhat problematic with the automatics, but nobody was too worried about it in those days.
They were gradually surplused and sold off to the public. The B.C. Provincial Government sold off the last of the PCMR Win 94's in the 1960's. It was a tough sell then, everybody wanted new ones. Many were just destroyed. PCMR guns still turn up at gun shows, although they are starting to command high prices due to collectability. |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 12:49:41 AM EDT
[#49]
Weren't smoothbore '94's used by our Navy to launch lines ship to ship?
Cool history find. |
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Posted: 5/10/2015 1:02:36 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Would've took it over a Mosin or 98k. Funny you should mention that. The US issued Mosins in and shortly after WWI: When Bolsheviks took power the U.S. contracts were cancelled. Remington and New England Westinghouse faced a terrible economic loss from both Russia defaulting on the balance of the weapons and because of the United States canceling the contracts due to not wanting to deliver weapons to the Bolsheviks. To save Rem-UMC and New England Westinghouse from bankruptcy the U.S. government purchase the most of the remaining, completed rifles at approximately $32 each. The majority of rifles purchased by the US were New England Westinghouse rifles. Most were used for military training purposes was given a temporary U.S. designation The U.S. Magazine Rifle calibre 7.62mm Model of 1916. The US made use of the American made M91s to train new Army recruits. US surcharged rifles were kept in the United States for SATC and other troop training; both the Colorado and the Alaska National Guard, to name a few, had to turn in their US rifles and were instead issued Mosins. Rifles were proofed and surcharged at a couple of US arsenals, many of them at Benicia Arsenal. Although most Mosin Nagant rifles that remained in the country were not surcharged but were given to the NRA after the war ended. Most were brand new when sold off by the NRA at $3.90 + $1.58 postage. The NRA was sold out of U.S. Mosins by 1929. There weren't always enough to go around. IIRC, Rhode Island's militia in many cases had to issue one Mosin Nagant to every tenth man or so with the rest having to use trapdoor Springfields. |
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