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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:33:36 PM EDT
[#1]
Only used Aimpoints in 11X OSUT. This was in 2010.
Never used irons once while in. All TA01NSN and TA31 ACOGs at the unit. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:33:37 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I heard that it's not because the Marine Corps wanted to, but because all their iron sights ended up on eBay. 
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:35:35 PM EDT
[#3]
Combat arms shouldn't waste time with irons.
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:40:30 PM EDT
[#4]
There will be a future school dedicated to this some day. Its explanation will be thus:
On March 3, 2026, the United States Marine Corps established an elite school for the Top One Percent of its marksmen. Its purpose was to teach the lost art of Iron Sight shooting and to insure that the handful of men who graduated were the best marksmen in the world.
They succeeded. Today, the Marines call it Fighter Weapons School The marksmen call it: |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:42:03 PM EDT
[#5]
My son entered the USMC in 2010, and still did iron sights at San Diego (Pendleton). When he did his tours, he used an optic.
He reported that recruits as of about 2 yrs ago were no longer taught iron sight use. 
Somehow, I think that makes a rifleman less skilled than a recruit who learned windage & elevation with irons. But what do I know...I am an old guy who just recently learned the benefits of a unity powered optic. 
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:42:45 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I heard that it's not because the Marine Corps wanted to, but because all their iron sights ended up on eBay. Plenty of MARPAT sure did when it first hit the Corps. I remember back in the early '00s there was a fellow on eBay selling and shipping that and certain other goods straight from Parris Island.
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:43:07 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Optics are standard equipment anymore. They do everything irons do but better and are much more reliable today than in years past. That said I still think irons need to be taught but I wouldn't waste too much time on them. These are generally my feelings. I still think they should learn them in boot camp. Live fire in boot camp is only one week and maybe 3-400 rounds total. I've shot that much in one morning in the fleet, which isn't uncommon. You have plenty of time to get comfy with your ACOG once you get to your unit. Also, what happens when you go to a foreign country and you are training host nation guys on their Vietnam era M16A1s? There are tons of examples where the cost of that one tiny week (two if you count grass week) of your four year enlistment is worth learning how to use iron sights. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:43:56 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I heard that it's not because the Marine Corps wanted to, but because all their iron sights ended up on eBay. lmao |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:44:19 PM EDT
[#9]
It's the 21st Century. Optics should be included with rifles.
In fact, the military is trying to give soldiers to have the same kind of advanced accuracy as the M1 Abrams fire control computers. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:44:22 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Somehow, I think that makes a rifleman less skilled than a recruit who learned windage & elevation with irons Why would you think that? Serious question. Is it less skilled or "differently skilled"? |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:44:35 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My son entered the USMC in 2010, and still did iron sights at San Diego (Pendleton). When he did his tours, he used an optic. He reported that recruits as of about 2 yrs ago were no longer taught iron sight use.
Somehow, I think that makes a rifleman less skilled than a recruit who learned windage & elevation with irons. But what do I know...I am an old guy who just recently learned the benefits of a unity powered optic.
The Marines tested this and found that beginning training with irons or optics did not change performance outcomes. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:44:51 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I understand the robustness, quick target acquisition, and long battery life of current mil optics. I detest the move to ignore iron sights. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:45:46 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Anyone else know about this? Iron sights are not taught in USMC boot camp. Source: Father of a Marine |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:45:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I joined (2009) we used iron sights, and I think they should still use them in boot camp at least, even though every issued rifle in the Marine Corps has an RCO now. Its a lot easier to learn the finer points on an ACOG (after you have the confidence to hit a man sized target at 500 yards with iron sights on an old busted ass M16A2), than it is to try to figure out irons because your ACOG just broke. When I joined (1983) we used wooden sights because they hadn't discovered iron yet... It smells like Cash Sales in here! |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:48:18 PM EDT
[#15]
Not good. When Captain Price detonates the EMP over D.C., how will they put rounds on Ivan?
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:48:56 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not good. When Captain Price detonates the EMP over D.C., how will they put rounds on Ivan? With their ACOG's. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:50:45 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With their ACOG's. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not good. When Captain Price detonates the EMP over D.C., how will they put rounds on Ivan? With their ACOG's. And Elcan SpecterDRs. Speaking of Elcans, One thing you may have noticed with most of the rifles shown thus far is the lack of a full set of back-up iron sights (front and rear BUIS). Despite what the “tactical experts” say about back up iron sights beeing a must on any tactical gun, a lot of soldiers, myself included, have had no issues with either red dots or magnified optics going down on them in combat. Is it a good idea to have a set of back-up irons on your rifle? Yes, but these guys are using their rifles in harm’s way rigged like they are. If anything, their choice to not run back up irons is a testament to the durability of the current issued optics. 
https://www.defensereview.com/tactical-ar-15m4m4a1-carbine-aftermarket-accessories-for-military-combat-applications-the-competition-to-combat-crossover-part-iii/ |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:51:24 PM EDT
[#18]
They better be comfortable using both. Optics can get damaged in combat.
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:53:24 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not good. When Captain Price detonates the EMP over D.C., how will they put rounds on Ivan? Use the dot on their monitors. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 9:59:17 PM EDT
[#20]
No bayonet training, no more steel pots, no iron sights, I are obsolete.
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Posted: 11/14/2016 10:02:05 PM EDT
[#21]
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Has scoring improved overall? Do new recruits shoot better than with irons? Yes and yes. Dramatically. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 10:04:37 PM EDT
[#22]
These threads make me miss R0N.
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Posted: 11/14/2016 10:04:54 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They better be comfortable using both. Optics can get damaged in combat. Please cite instances of failures. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 10:13:08 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
I kind of figured iron sights to be just as important as optics as they are less likely to fail. LOL iron sights less likely to fail than an ACOG? Wrong wrong wrong All it takes is a stiff fart and your front sight post is bent to shit and snaps off when you bent it back. I've seen 3-4 RCOs with broken turrets which were still sorta usable and 2-3 no shit smashed RCOs and those came from straight up on purpose abuse. That's over a four year period of pretty much only dealing with M16A4/M4s. I honestly lost track of how many front sight posts were broken from goofy stuff like climbing out of the back of a 7 ton. Iron sights are important but by no means durable. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 10:15:18 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I heard that it's not because the Marine Corps wanted to, but because all their iron sights ended up on eBay. Lol we use to DRMO seven cubes FULL of carry handle sights. We couldn't throw them away fast enough and I mean 4-5,000 carry handles that were basically brand new. |
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Posted: 11/14/2016 10:18:50 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They better be comfortable using both. Optics can get damaged in combat. Marines were getting so many headshots in Fallujah tanks to the ACOG. An group of investigators were sent to make sure Marines weren't executing people they captured. Also, I've never heard of optics like a M68 or ACOG failing. And even if it did happen, one soldier or marine with a busted optic doesn't halt or impact combat operations. Irons can break. And they can be damaged by enemy fire, just like any other aiming device. |
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Posted: 11/15/2016 1:30:32 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These threads make me miss R0N. Did he get run off by the dumbassery? |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 8:52:39 PM EDT
[#28]
Seems pretty short sighted to put all your eggs in one basket. Both irons and optics should be taught and both should be included in qualification.
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Posted: 11/16/2016 9:02:39 PM EDT
[#29]
I only have my BUIS because the rifle would look gay with only an optic up top.
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Posted: 11/16/2016 9:14:48 PM EDT
[#30]
I qual'd in boot camp with an M16A2 in 2007.
ACOG's are grunt tough. Irons are slower and suck in low light. Get over it grandpa we're modern day warfighters and fuck your nostalgia. Most service members aren't gun guys, even infantry. As a 0311 we were using optics as soon as we hit SOI. We knew our weapons and optics. In the Army as an 11B, most guys only used throughout Aimpoint or irons. I had to give hip pocket classes on using the M68 or ACOG and they had a hard time grasping the what I was putting down. The 240, SAW, and M2 still have ironsome mostly. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 9:19:53 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
they are more reliable than the rifles they sit on. everyone bitches about irons, yet when you talk to people that actually used their rifles in combat, no one ever talks about yanking off a acog or aimpoint and lighting the bad guys up with their marksmanship skills. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There's a thread in the optics section that talks about why BUIS are irrelevant if you use an optic that is going to always work. Perhaps the marines believe ACOGs to be bulletproof. they are more reliable than the rifles they sit on. everyone bitches about irons, yet when you talk to people that actually used their rifles in combat, no one ever talks about yanking off a acog or aimpoint and lighting the bad guys up with their marksmanship skills. Tiny sticks on a 6.5lb rifle vs huge hunk of aluminum optic. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 9:25:50 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
These threads make me miss R0N. Me too. Freaking encyclopdedic (is that a word?) knowledge of the Corps. Way too many idiots on this board chase away the real knowledge. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 9:27:35 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did he get run off by the dumbassery? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
These threads make me miss R0N. Did he get run off by the dumbassery? He was on today and posted yesterday according to his profile. As for irons. I zero mine and never touch them again. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 9:29:07 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's a thread in the optics section that talks about why BUIS are irrelevant if you use an optic that is going to always work. Perhaps the marines believe ACOGs to be bulletproof. ACOGs are more robust than irons, especially the BUIS from KAC. The front sight post of the M16/M4 is pretty exposed and subject to damage if it is impacted-I've seen it many times. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 9:30:43 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistorySimple fry debbiled eggs. Wot haz happin to mi Crops? Dis make cheesy pooler crie ebery tyme.
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Posted: 11/16/2016 9:32:52 PM EDT
[#36]
First cursive writing; now iron sights.
What is happening to America |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 9:33:37 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First cursive writing; now iron sites.What is happening to America? FBHO. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 9:49:28 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Iron sights are not taught in USMC boot camp. Source: Father of a Marine Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Anyone else know about this? Iron sights are not taught in USMC boot camp. Source: Father of a Marine My son joined 2013, they shot optics only. He was so proud to qual " expert". I'm proud of him regardless but the new"expert" is not the same as the old IMO. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 9:53:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Teaching them to properly use the current technology is far more important. With limited time and resources, I'd much rather train recruits to effectively use fundamentals with0 an acog or aimpoint.
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Posted: 11/16/2016 9:53:28 PM EDT
[#40]
That is surprising. We train with both. Optics go down. Know how to use your backups.
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Posted: 11/16/2016 9:57:19 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My son joined 2013, they shot optics only. He was so proud to qual " expert". I'm proud of him regardless but the new"expert" is not the same as the old IMO. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Anyone else know about this? Iron sights are not taught in USMC boot camp. Source: Father of a Marine My son joined 2013, they shot optics only. He was so proud to qual " expert". I'm proud of him regardless but the new"expert" is not the same as the old IMO. Having shot expert with both irons and RCOs I can assure you they are exactly the same. If you can shoot with a scope you can shoot with irons. I don't know why some of you guys act like using irons is some wizard like skill. Put the little stick in the middle of the circle. Boom now you know how to use irons sights. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:01:18 PM EDT
[#42]
When ACOGs were limited to only a couple per squad, when I was in the Army way back in 2002-2005. You were looked upon as a cheater, almost, if you used an ACOG for qualification. Guys really envied the ones that got ACOGs issued to them. lol
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:04:01 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What was General Pershing really like? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I miss my .30cal. 1903 Rifle......  What was General Pershing really like? Captain 
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:06:32 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When ACOGs were limited to only a couple per squad, when I was in the Army way back in 2002-2005. You were looked upon as a cheater, almost, if you used an ACOG for qualification. Guys really envied the ones that got ACOGs issued to them. lol That's something that always confused me. I remember seeing soldiers with just a matech buis in AFG and thought how lame that would be. Is it common for soldiers to buy their own optics? If I got stuck deploying with only a buis I wouldn't hesitate to spend the money on an acog. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:10:26 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I joined (1983) we used wooden sights because they hadn't discovered iron It smells like Cash Sales in here! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
When I joined (2009) we used iron sights, and I think they should still use them in boot camp at least, even though every issued rifle in the Marine Corps has an RCO now. Its a lot easier to learn the finer points on an ACOG (after you have the confidence to hit a man sized target at 500 yards with iron sights on an old busted ass M16A2), than it is to try to figure out irons because your ACOG just broke. When I joined (1983) we used wooden sights because they hadn't discovered iron It smells like Cash Sales in here! It sure does (see Sig line  )
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:15:52 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's something that always confused me. I remember seeing soldiers with just a matech buis in AFG and thought how lame that would be. Is it common for soldiers to buy their own optics? If I got stuck deploying with only a buis I wouldn't hesitate to spend the money on an acog. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: When ACOGs were limited to only a couple per squad, when I was in the Army way back in 2002-2005. You were looked upon as a cheater, almost, if you used an ACOG for qualification. Guys really envied the ones that got ACOGs issued to them. lol That's something that always confused me. I remember seeing soldiers with just a matech buis in AFG and thought how lame that would be. Is it common for soldiers to buy their own optics? If I got stuck deploying with only a buis I wouldn't hesitate to spend the money on an acog. Most guys in a unit will use what's issued to them. But there are a few people that will buy their own optics. |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:18:40 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Most guys in a unit will use what's issued to them. But there are a few people that will buy their own optics. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
When ACOGs were limited to only a couple per squad, when I was in the Army way back in 2002-2005. You were looked upon as a cheater, almost, if you used an ACOG for qualification. Guys really envied the ones that got ACOGs issued to them. lol That's something that always confused me. I remember seeing soldiers with just a matech buis in AFG and thought how lame that would be. Is it common for soldiers to buy their own optics? If I got stuck deploying with only a buis I wouldn't hesitate to spend the money on an acog. Most guys in a unit will use what's issued to them. But there are a few people that will buy their own optics. Can you qual with your own shit if its the same model as issued stuff? |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:25:57 PM EDT
[#48]
I am in a armor unit, we traded in our 68s for ACOGs when we kept breaking 68s in sponson boxes. Now we break too many ACOGs so no rifles have them mounted now.
We broke lots and lots of optics in Iraq. Unfortunately we were there during the tail end and I had to send my Armorer to Baghdad for 1 for 1 replacements. 
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:26:00 PM EDT
[#49]
All this banter back and forth about Irons vs RCO reminds me of the "Old Marines", back when I was a young Marine, still arguing over which was better the Garand, M-14 or the M-16.
I love to shoot Irons and can still shoot them well but I've got optics on a lot of my rifles too. S/F Old Marine 
"Get off my lawn Maggot" |
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Posted: 11/16/2016 10:26:54 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's something that always confused me. I remember seeing soldiers with just a matech buis in AFG and thought how lame that would be. Is it common for soldiers to buy their own optics? If I got stuck deploying with only a buis I wouldn't hesitate to spend the money on an acog. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
When ACOGs were limited to only a couple per squad, when I was in the Army way back in 2002-2005. You were looked upon as a cheater, almost, if you used an ACOG for qualification. Guys really envied the ones that got ACOGs issued to them. lol That's something that always confused me. I remember seeing soldiers with just a matech buis in AFG and thought how lame that would be. Is it common for soldiers to buy their own optics? If I got stuck deploying with only a buis I wouldn't hesitate to spend the money on an acog. guys who need optics, get optics. guys with just BUIS are pogues who couldn't score an M9 to carry on the FOB. |
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