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Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:17:39 AM EDT
[#1]
Aside from the Armslist sellers, does this really affect someone who occasionally sells a longarm from time to time (year after year)?  I keep seeing 3+ sales blah blah.....
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:18:04 AM EDT
[#2]
Gotta get as many rules in as possible before Chevron is overturned... every unconstitutional gun grab will be made law by congress codifying "all existing rules".
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:18:52 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bulump:
Aside from the Armslist sellers, does this really affect someone who occasionally sells a longarm from time to time (year after year)?  I keep seeing 3+ sales blah blah.....
View Quote


There's also the "sell within 30 days of acquiring," "repeatedly sell firearms of the same model, etc.", or " sell within a  year if still new with all paperwork," etc.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:19:03 AM EDT
[#4]
Wow. You had to assert that you were in it to make a profit or they would not give an FFL.  Now, everyone who sells is presumed to be in it for profit and therefore you should be licensed?   Hahaha.  Everyone start applying for a license now.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:20:51 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ricky_45:
Wow. You had to assert that you were in it to make a profit or they would not give an FFL.  Now, everyone who sells is presumed to be in it for profit and therefore you should be licensed?   Hahaha.  Everyone start applying for a license now.
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And they won't give it to ya. Quite the catch-22.

Just fuck these criminals.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:20:53 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By CAsoldier:
What about the guns they gave the cartel?
View Quote


Guess given guns away isnt selling, so you’re GTG.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:22:49 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By captexas:
By that definition, anyone that sells or trades in their vehicle for more than they paid needs to be a licensed car dealer.  Anyone that sells their house for more than they paid for it years ago needs to be a licensed real estate agent, etc.

Who decides what a firearm is worth over time?  I guess if I want to sell a gun I no longer want I will self declare the value to me as $10,000 so that I will be selling at a major loss.
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Then you can get a tax write off too...
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:23:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ARandomClaymore] [#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MudEagle:

If you sell for a "profit" then yes.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MudEagle:
Originally Posted By jd2395:
summary?

Am a "dealer" if I sell a rifle to someone locally?

If you sell for a "profit" then yes.


Who has ever sold a firearm, "for profit"? *wink, wink

John: Lists new/ used firearm for sale
Edward: "Would you take $500 for said firearm?"
John: "Sure. It's a deal."
Edward: "Hey John, you're not making a profit off this sale are you? See, the ATF has just issued this rule......"
John: "Are you a glowie?
Edward: "No."
John: "No."
**Private party meeting complete**

This does nothing to impact private party sales.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:25:59 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Action45:
What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud.
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Suuuuure... you escape one circus only to be pulled over by the IRS 6am goonsquad.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:26:52 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DocApocalypse:


Great question.  It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL.  If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DocApocalypse:
Originally Posted By Action45:
What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud.


Great question.  It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL.  If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer?

ATF could still consider you "engaged in Business" if you meet other terms.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:27:01 AM EDT
[#11]
Going to kill Gun broker and armslist used gun sales
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:27:19 AM EDT
[#12]
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:28:16 AM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:28:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: lazyengineer] [#14]
466 pages.

Holy shit.


I read the entire 100 page Arm Brace ruling - and it was worth doing so and more informed than any of the youtube shit.  

But Jesus, 466 pages


All I can say is stay away from youtube, as you will be misinformed heavily from.most of those clowns.   Best hope is someone here in an unbiased way reads it and gives their assessment here.

Until then it's going to be cherry picked sound bite assessments, which will still be better than youtube.

I know dudes who were buying CMP Garands by the dozen for purpose of resale - sounds like this is going to target that.  I know every single gun owner here sells guns from time to time - and everybody who is watching this thread wants to know the impact of buying a gun, deciding to sell it later.  Me too.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:28:41 AM EDT
[#15]
They lost funding and are pulling more shit. It is a election year bother your local congress for more defunding of the ATF!!!
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:29:15 AM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Action45:
What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud.
View Quote


DOJ has prosecuted people for dealing without a license even when all sales were through a transfer FFL or consignment sales.

They want guns to stay with the original owners so they can be tracked
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:29:42 AM EDT
[#17]
Joke's on them, I lose money every time I sell a gun.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:30:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: StevenH] [#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DocApocalypse:


Great question.  It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL.  If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DocApocalypse:
Originally Posted By Action45:
What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud.


Great question.  It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL.  If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer?


Nope. If anything that paper trail makes it easier to convict you

I knew an FFL who refused to do transfers of used blue label Glocks after a few years of business. Said he was tired of ATF spending all day in his store looking for the guys who buy two every year but sell one of them.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:30:31 AM EDT
[#19]
The ATF issued the proposed version of the rules in August and opened them up to public comment for 90 days. Officials said they received nearly 400,000 comments, two-thirds of which were clearly in favor of the rules. A quarter of the comments were decidedly against the proposal, the officials said, and other comments did not take a clear stance on the rules.
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So these cunts recruited all the New Jersey catladies to comment in support, so they could write this in the news stories.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:31:07 AM EDT
[#20]
What about trades?
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:33:07 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DocApocalypse:


There's also the "sell within 30 days of acquiring," "repeatedly sell firearms of the same model, etc.", or " sell within a  year if still new with all paperwork," etc.
View Quote

Not just "new with all paperwork", the rule says "new, or like new in their original packaging".  

Let's say you're searching for a new CC and you buy three handguns, fire 50 rounds out of each, and decide to keep one.  You go to sell the other two with everything they came with about 6 months later.  That would require an FFL in the eyes of the ATF per this rule.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:35:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Everrest] [#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GAshooter11:
What about trades?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GAshooter11:
What about trades?

(g)Related definitions. For purposes of this definition—

(1)The term “purchase” (and derivative terms thereof) means the act of obtaining a firearm in an agreed exchange for something of value;
(2)The term “sale” (and derivative terms thereof) means the act of disposing of a firearm in an agreed exchange for something of value, and the term “resale” means selling a firearm, including a stolen firearm, after it was previously sold by the original manufacturer or any other person; and
(3)The term “something of value” includes money, credit, personal property (e.g., another firearm or ammunition), a service, a controlled substance, or any other medium of exchange or valuable consideration, legal or illegal.


ETA: a lot of the 466 pages is " remove the third word in paragraph 3 and replace with "criminal".
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:35:47 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By luscioman:
Can one of you retired boomers read the 466 pages and give cliff notes to the busy people paying into your social security.
View Quote

What they are saying is you need to have an attorney give you an opinion on whether or not you require a FFL.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:37:03 AM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Palm:

What they are saying is you need to have an attorney give you an opinion on whether or not you require a FFL.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Palm:
Originally Posted By luscioman:
Can one of you retired boomers read the 466 pages and give cliff notes to the busy people paying into your social security.

What they are saying is you need to have an attorney give you an opinion on whether or not you require a FFL.


It will come down to this.  Plus, you know that this will launch a thousand lawsuits, which will take months to years to adjudicate.  

And here we go.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:39:33 AM EDT
[#25]
A senior FBI agent once told me that ATF stands for Ass-Holes Toting Firearms
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:40:28 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Palm:
A senior FBI agent once told me that ATF stands for Ass-Holes Toting Firearms
View Quote

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:41:19 AM EDT
[#27]
Originally Posted By Everrest:
Washington Post Justice Dept. finalizes rules to close ‘gun show loophole’

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/final-rule-definition-engaged-business-dealer-firearms (cold)
A firearm with a pen laying on an official application to own or manufacture a firearm.

On April 10, 2024, the Attorney General signed ATF’s final rule, Definition of “Engaged in the Business” as a Dealer in Firearms, amending ATF’s regulations in title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (“CFR”), part 478. The final rule implements the provisions of the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act (“BSCA,” effective June 25, 2022), which broadened the definition of when a person is considered “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms (other than a gunsmith or pawnbroker). The Final Rule clarifies that definition. It will be published in the Federal Register and will be effective 30-days from publication.

This final rule incorporates BSCA’s definitions of “predominantly earn a profit” and “terrorism,” and amends the regulatory definitions of “engaged in the business as a dealer other than a gunsmith or pawnbroker” and “principal objective of livelihood and profit” to ensure each conforms with the BSCA’s statutory changes and can be relied upon by the public.

The final rule clarifies when a person is “engaged in the business” as a dealer in firearms at wholesale or retail by:

clarifying the definition of “dealer,” and defining the terms “purchase,” “sale,” and “something of value” as they apply to dealers;
adding definitions for the term “personal collection (or personal collection of firearms, or personal firearms collection),” and for “responsible person”;
setting forth conduct that is presumed to constitute “engaging in the business” of dealing in firearms, and presumed to demonstrate the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” from the sale or disposition of firearms, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, in civil and administrative proceedings;
clarifying that the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” does not require the person to have received pecuniary gain, and that intent does not have to be shown when a person purchases or sells a firearm for criminal or terrorism purposes;
clarifying the circumstances when a person would not be presumed to engaged in the business of dealing in firearms, including as an auctioneer, or when purchasing firearms for, and selling firearms from, a personal collection;
addressing the procedures former licensees, and responsible persons acting on behalf of such licensees, must follow when they liquidate business inventory upon revocation or other termination of their license; and
clarifying that licensees must follow the verification and recordkeeping procedures in 27 CFR 478.94 and Subpart H, rather than using an ATF Form 4473 when firearms are transferred to other licensees, including transfers by a licensed sole proprietor to that person’s personal collection.
Please note that this is the text of the final rule as signed by the Attorney General, but the official version of the final rule will be as it is published in the Federal Register. The rule will go into effect once it is published in the Federal Register.
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https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/ruling/atf-final-rule-definition-engaged-business-dealer-firearms/download   (466 pages)

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From what I read this rule will take the ambiguity out of things and make them as clear as mud.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:41:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Cristo11] [#28]
This is simply shameful.

More government for the sake of more government to justify some cocksuckers paycheck & benefits.

Prosecute criminals. Protect the Constitution. Uphold your oath.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:41:58 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jd2395:
summary?

Am a "dealer" if I sell a rifle to someone locally?
View Quote


From what I read, no, not unless you're selling on a regular basis for profit.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:43:17 AM EDT
[#30]
Fuck the king
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:45:34 AM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jerrmy:
Is it for profit if a storage/safekeeping fee was accrued/assessed during the time I owned it?  I imagine I've lost money on each one I've sold!
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Can I write off depreciation?

Is profit adjusted for inflation?
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:45:59 AM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By johnhd:

Not just "new with all paperwork", the rule says "new, or like new in their original packaging".  

Let's say you're searching for a new CC and you buy three handguns, fire 50 rounds out of each, and decide to keep one.  You go to sell the other two with everything they came with about 6 months later.  That would require an FFL in the eyes of the ATF per this rule.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By johnhd:
Originally Posted By DocApocalypse:


There's also the "sell within 30 days of acquiring," "repeatedly sell firearms of the same model, etc.", or " sell within a  year if still new with all paperwork," etc.

Not just "new with all paperwork", the rule says "new, or like new in their original packaging".  

Let's say you're searching for a new CC and you buy three handguns, fire 50 rounds out of each, and decide to keep one.  You go to sell the other two with everything they came with about 6 months later.  That would require an FFL in the eyes of the ATF per this rule.


Yep,

Or buy a gun, try it and not like it, then try to sell it

Or sell a gun you won in a raffle or competition
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:46:09 AM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StevenH:


DOJ has prosecuted people for dealing without a license even when all sales were through a transfer FFL or consignment sales.

They want guns to stay with the original owners so they can be tracked
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StevenH:
Originally Posted By Action45:
What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud.


DOJ has prosecuted people for dealing without a license even when all sales were through a transfer FFL or consignment sales.

They want guns to stay with the original owners so they can be tracked

The solution is obvious. Buy Anderson lowers when on sale for 30$. Buy Spikes 20 packs of LPKs and spring kits. Buy many PSA blem uppers when on sale. Give them away. Repeat. Fuck them. Flush the country in untrackable arms.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:46:24 AM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By StevenH:
Going to kill Gun broker and armslist used gun sales
View Quote


While it doesn’t seem like it would be aimed at the one off gun sellers on those sites I’m guessing the regulations they’ll cook up to enforce it will be designed specifically to make it too hard for the sites to comply with.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:47:33 AM EDT
[#35]
Attachment Attached File


That's all I got
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:48:57 AM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jd2395:
summary?

Am a "dealer" if I sell a rifle to someone locally?
View Quote


How long have you had it, what is it’s condition, and do you have the original box all impact the answer
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:50:15 AM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Dragynn:
Why bother even having a Congress if .gov agencies and the potato potus simply make up whatever laws they want?
View Quote



Except they didn’t, sadly. John Cronyn made this possible with the last bit of gun control he helped to pass. bUt MuH tExAs
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:51:06 AM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mooreshawnm:

The solution is obvious. Buy Anderson lowers when on sale for 30$. Buy Spikes 20 packs of LPKs and spring kits. Buy many PSA blem uppers when on sale. Give them away. Repeat. Fuck them. Flush the country in untrackable arms.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mooreshawnm:
Originally Posted By StevenH:
Originally Posted By Action45:
What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud.


DOJ has prosecuted people for dealing without a license even when all sales were through a transfer FFL or consignment sales.

They want guns to stay with the original owners so they can be tracked

The solution is obvious. Buy Anderson lowers when on sale for 30$. Buy Spikes 20 packs of LPKs and spring kits. Buy many PSA blem uppers when on sale. Give them away. Repeat. Fuck them. Flush the country in untrackable arms.


Why do you think I express such contempt for private sellers that want to see ID, or a CCW, or want a bill of sale?
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:51:12 AM EDT
[#39]
I’m a wheeler
I’m a dealer
I’m a wicked woman stealer…
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:51:59 AM EDT
[#40]
On the bright side I can tell my wife that the ATF said I can't sell any of my guns anymore.  I am sure she would not want the house torched and the dog shot.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:52:14 AM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Emeoba69:


While it doesn’t seem like it would be aimed at the one off gun sellers on those sites
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Emeoba69:
Originally Posted By StevenH:
Going to kill Gun broker and armslist used gun sales


While it doesn’t seem like it would be aimed at the one off gun sellers on those sites


So new user name with zero feedback for each EE listing?
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:53:22 AM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DocApocalypse:


Great question.  It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL.  If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer?
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DocApocalypse:
Originally Posted By Action45:
What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud.


Great question.  It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL.  If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer?

In that case, the gov gets its 4473, and the dealer/consignment place gets to charge everybody for both the consignment and the transfer fee.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:54:28 AM EDT
[#43]
What are you supposed to do with a firearm that you inherit?
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:55:32 AM EDT
[#44]
Skimming it looks like you can still sell your personal guns/collections.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 11:57:11 AM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:

In that case, the gov gets its 4473, and the dealer/consignment place gets to charge everybody for both the consignment and the transfer fee.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TxRabbitBane:
Originally Posted By DocApocalypse:
Originally Posted By Action45:
What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud.


Great question.  It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL.  If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer?

In that case, the gov gets its 4473, and the dealer/consignment place gets to charge everybody for both the consignment and the transfer fee.


That still will not protect you from charges of dealing without a license.

Link Posted: 4/11/2024 12:03:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: callmestick] [#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kharn:

So everyone is a dealer.
/media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/snaps-178.gif

Kharn
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kharn:
setting forth conduct that is presumed to constitute “engaging in the business” of dealing in firearms, and presumed to demonstrate the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” from the sale or disposition of firearms, absent reliable evidence to the contrary, in civil and administrative proceedings;
clarifying that the intent to “predominantly earn a profit” does not require the person to have received pecuniary gain, and that intent does not have to be shown when a person purchases or sells a firearm for criminal or terrorism purposes;

So everyone is a dealer.
/media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/snaps-178.gif

Kharn


Sound a lot like your presumed guilty until proven otherwise to me and is antithetical to the bill of rights.  Why would anyone expect the fucking ATF to understand the bill of rights?
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 12:05:41 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Mr_Nasty99:
What are you supposed to do with a firearm that you inherit?
View Quote


You get lit up by a federal joint-task force as you're on your way home from grandma's house.  

One less bolt-action goose gun on the streets and award citations for everyone involved.  Do you have any idea how many crimes are committed with 30" bbl 16 gauge 3-rd detachable clip shotguns???  Blood on the streets my friend.

Link Posted: 4/11/2024 12:08:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ENGCPT] [#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


Highschool  US government class says this is bullshit.  The executive branch doest not interpret (revise the definition) the law.  The Judicial branch does.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 12:13:20 PM EDT
[#49]
I'll sell you this sticker for $500, and I'll give you the gun for free.
Link Posted: 4/11/2024 12:20:35 PM EDT
[#50]
These are the kickers:
However there is no minimum threshold number of firearms purchased or sold that triggers the licensing requirement.  Similarly, there is no minimum number of transactions that determines whether a person is "engaged in the business" of dealing in firearms.   For example even a single firearm transaction or offer to engage in a transaction...

So,
1) Even ONE transaction can land you in jail as an "unlicensed dealer".
2) Even ONE offer to sell/buy can be a violation, and can land you in jail as an "unlicensed dealer", even though NO SALE/PURCHASE took place.

Further:
Makes and maintains records to document, track, or calculate profits and losses from firearms repetitively purchased for resale.  (emphasis added)

So IF you track your firearms in a spreadsheet, notebook, etc.,  that could be used as proof you are an "engaged in the business of dealing in firearms".   Note it says "OR calculate profits/losses" -- it doesn't require you to track money to show intent -- only that you keep ANY sort of record concerning your firearms, regardless of whether there is any sort of money numbers involved.

At all times, the determination of whether a person is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is based on the totality of the circumstances.
In other words, the BATF agent makes a judgement call that may not have any connection to the rule, but is instead just based on the "totality of the circumstances" and you can be charged on that agent's opinion alone.
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