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Posted: 4/12/2024 11:29:08 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By memsu: Sell, gun cases with a free gun.  Then you're not profiting off the gun. I’d like to subscribe to your newsletter. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 11:32:36 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tnriverluver: I have little faith but there is always the very slim chance the SC will put an end to this bullshit come June or thereabouts.  And congress will codify it as law before November to avoid it being undone. |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 11:35:10 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kent: Going through an FFL does NOT shield you (an un-licensed person) from being judged to be an "unlicensed dealer in firearms" and thus subject to prosecution under this rule. Nothing I've read in the new rule exempts sales to/from an FFL when you as an unlicensed person are involved. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kent: Originally Posted By BSOG1: in 30 years i never bought a gun from a private seller. and if it was off the internet, it was shipped to a dealer. Originally Posted By Ben_Raines: I mean, let's be honest, how many people actually buy guns from a private dealer at gun shows these days? All I ever hear about gun shows these days are that they barely qualify as "gun" shows anymore with all the dealers of products other than guns, that the guns they DO have are way overpriced, and most of them are crap. These days most people use websites like Armslist, GunBroker or a local forum website to buy privately, which has to go through an FFL anyways. Going through an FFL does NOT shield you (an un-licensed person) from being judged to be an "unlicensed dealer in firearms" and thus subject to prosecution under this rule. Nothing I've read in the new rule exempts sales to/from an FFL when you as an unlicensed person are involved. 
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Posted: 4/12/2024 11:44:23 AM EDT
[#4]
dont sell guns, sell parts kits lol
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 11:48:56 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jnk556: It's fear mongering mostly.... Read this part here circled..... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/111395/Screenshot_20240411_211653_Drive-3185446.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jnk556: Originally Posted By MeAndMyAR: Unless it’s a Curio and Relic, I get more recent makes sent to my FFL 01 guy whether I am buying it through an online dealer or private seller.. I rarely, if ever sell. I haven’t sold one in over 3 years. And if I did sell occasionally, I have read nothing in any of this that would affect me or 99% of the people here I would guess. It's fear mongering mostly.... Read this part here circled..... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/111395/Screenshot_20240411_211653_Drive-3185446.jpg “Fear mongering” is the point of this rule. But that doesn’t mean the fear it generates isn’t legitimate. It says right there in the text you circled that those scenarios are “a defense of prosecution”, but in a way to make the horrific reality more palatable. Those are not “get out of jail free” scenarios. They can still arrest you, book you, bankrupt you all the while you are trying to prove that you were just liquidating grandpa’s collection. |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 11:52:25 AM EDT
[#6]
Has lawyerup opined on this yet?
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Posted: 4/12/2024 12:22:49 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Duck_Hunt:  Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Duck_Hunt: Originally Posted By Ben_Raines: I mean, let's be honest, how many people actually buy guns from a private dealer at gun shows these days? All I ever hear about gun shows these days are that they barely qualify as "gun" shows anymore with all the dealers of products other than guns, that the guns they DO have are way overpriced, and most of them are crap. These days most people use websites like Armslist, GunBroker or a local forum website to buy privately, which has to go through an FFL anyways. No shit. Lol |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 12:45:39 PM EDT
[#8]
sell everything as a parts kit...problem solved.
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Posted: 4/12/2024 12:50:33 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ben_Raines: I mean, let's be honest, how many people actually buy guns from a private dealer at gun shows these days? All I ever hear about gun shows these days are that they barely qualify as "gun" shows anymore with all the dealers of products other than guns, that the guns they DO have are way overpriced, and most of them are crap. These days most people use websites like Armslist, GunBroker or a local forum website to buy privately, which has to go through an FFL anyways. 2/3rds of a post a year guy says it's no big deal because gun shows suck anyways. Interdasting... |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 12:50:40 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: If you sell for a "profit" then yes. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Originally Posted By jd2395: summary? Am a "dealer" if I sell a rifle to someone locally? If you sell for a "profit" then yes. "Millions of KAC bros suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced." |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 12:52:44 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Elkins45: Gunbroker sales almost always go thru an FFL already. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Elkins45: Originally Posted By StevenH: Going to kill Gun broker and armslist used gun sales Gunbroker sales almost always go thru an FFL already. Unless it’s an antique or black powder, they all have to go through an 03 or 01 FFL. |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 12:55:54 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Everrest: So as a good citizen I apply for an FFL. My town doesn't allow FFLs in residential neighborhoods. I also have a school within 1000 feet of my house. FFL Denied. What is my recourse? -sell guns anyways -get your door kicked in -dog gets murdered -go to PMITA federal prison. Or, alternately... -resist/disregard unconstitutional laws -have government agents snipe your family members -agents burn your home down and take pictures in front of your charred corpse. Your choice. |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 1:34:48 PM EDT
[#13]
LOL, the KAC fake dealers association. bye bye
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Subpar: "Millions of KAC bros suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced." |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 1:59:40 PM EDT
[#14]
Since these alphabet agencies are going rogue and passing legislation without congress, why doesn't the congress cut all funding to agencies that violate their charter and fire all federal employees who violate their oath to uphold the constitution.
(then I woke up) |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 2:18:40 PM EDT
[#15]
Sounds like I'll sell you this pizza for $1200 and then I'll leave this backpack at your house? I guess.
I mean, it doesn't regulate how much I can sell pizza for does it? |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 2:27:07 PM EDT
[#16]
RINOs Now Say ATF's New Rule Is Lawless & Unconstitutional…But They Enabled It! WTF!
 RINOs Now Say ATF's New Rule Is Lawless & Unconstitutional…But They Enabled It! WTF! |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 4:25:02 PM EDT
[#17]
I have every right to sell my personal property via legal channels. So what if the item has appreciated in the years I've owned it? how do they define "making a profit"? What if you sell it for your original purchase price, or less?
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KY, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 4:51:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Elkins45]
[#18]
I go to most shows within an hour or two away and I see 9 or 10 of the same guys at every show, year after year. As soon as they trade for a gun they slap a price tag on it and drop it on their table. Until I see one of them being dragged out in handcuffs I’m going to conclude this is all just performative bullshit.
Those guys have been flagrantly “engaging in the business” for years and ATF hasn’t done shit about it. |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 5:35:37 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mgwantob: Here we go... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mgwantob: Similarly, there is no minimum number of transactions that determines whether a person is “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms. Even a single firearm transaction, or offer to engage in a transaction, when combined with other evidence, may be sufficient to require a license. For example, even under the previous statutory definition, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when few firearms, if any, were actually sold, when other factors were also present, such as the person representing to others a willingness and ability to repetitively purchase firearms for resale. Here we go... Welcome to the increasing world of "arbitrary and capricious". "Clarifying" definitions in a way that makes the law more squishy and arbitrary, opening up new avenues of "interpretation" that are LESS clear, is opposite of what the agencies are supposed to be using their rulemaking authority for. |
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Posted: 4/12/2024 6:20:33 PM EDT
[#20]
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 6:31:27 PM EDT
[#21]
What a complete crock of shit
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USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 9:22:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Or, alternately... -resist/disregard unconstitutional laws -have government agents snipe your family members -agents burn your home down and take pictures in front of your charred corpse. 
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Posted: 4/12/2024 10:01:30 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Elkins45: Gunbroker sales almost always go thru an FFL already. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Elkins45: Originally Posted By StevenH: Going to kill Gun broker and armslist used gun sales Gunbroker sales almost always go thru an FFL already. Doesn’t matter. The seller has to BE an FFL |
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IA, USA
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Posted: 4/12/2024 10:37:22 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Grunteled: That's the way Congress likes it. Then they they can hold 'hearings' and grandstand but they aren't 'to blame' for it and will eternally 'work to fight' it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Grunteled: Originally Posted By Dragynn: Why bother even having a Congress if .gov agencies and the potato potus simply make up whatever laws they want? That's the way Congress likes it. Then they they can hold 'hearings' and grandstand but they aren't 'to blame' for it and will eternally 'work to fight' it. So who regulates the regulators ?? It appears no one does. kwg |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 4:24:35 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mr-Mockingbird: FJB is sure playing the part of poking the bear over and over, hoping for a violent reaction so the bear can be put down Hold the line Don't do anything overly stupid right now. We're over the target; explains all the flak Trust the plan? Patriots in charge? Respectfully, I submit that it sounds too much like Qanon "trust the plan" nonsense. After all of these decades hearing phrases like you posted, I've lost any faith in that approach. A government can be wrong a thousand times and survive but an individual can only be wrong once and be destroyed. Tyranny favors the long game as all governments tend towards it. Incrementalism favors tyranny. Liberty happens in major bursts. Some will point to things like the "civil rights movement" as an example of incrementalism working against tyranny but fail to understand that it was backed by communists and those pushing for tyranny. They were using the cause to further their own agenda. That same agenda still has legs today. Frankly, I don't think there is enough time for the Supreme Court to smack all of this down before the Court is changed to something more pliable. We need a jugular lunge in a case that challenges the NFA, GCA, etc. Then, and only then, will we know if we still have a constitutional republic. I also don't think our culture and economy can withstand much more. Yuri Bezmenov's warnings have come to pass. Our future young citizens, alive right now, are broken, probably irreparably. They lack empathy, morals, critical thinking, faith in G-d, etc. There is, IMHO, no time to trust the plan. The flak we are seeing is just a smoke screen to play for time. Time is on the side of government as it lives a thousand lifetimes. An individual has only one so, for him, time is very short. Sit in the pot and boil. Jump out of the pot and die quicker. There are surely other options available. |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 8:43:38 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Elkins45: I go to most shows within an hour or two away and I see 9 or 10 of the same guys at every show, year after year. As soon as they trade for a gun they slap a price tag on it and drop it on their table. Until I see one of them being dragged out in handcuffs I’m going to conclude this is all just performative bullshit. Those guys have been flagrantly “engaging in the business” for years and ATF hasn’t done shit about it. Then there is the other side of that coin. The guys who set up a table one every year or two to sell off parts of their collection because shipping has become too much of a hassle. Beware the “buyer” who asks you a lot of questions about how often you sell at gun shows. |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 10:01:22 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JmE: ... n agenda. That same agenda still has legs today. Frankly, I don't think there is enough time for the Supreme Court to smack all of this down before the Court is changed to something more pliable. We need a jugular lunge in a case that challenges the NFA, GCA, etc. Then, and only then, will we know if we still have a constitutional republic. I also don't th... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JmE: Originally Posted By Mr-Mockingbird: FJB is sure playing the part of poking the bear over and over, hoping for a violent reaction so the bear can be put down Hold the line Don't do anything overly stupid right now. We're over the target; explains all the flak ... n agenda. That same agenda still has legs today. Frankly, I don't think there is enough time for the Supreme Court to smack all of this down before the Court is changed to something more pliable. We need a jugular lunge in a case that challenges the NFA, GCA, etc. Then, and only then, will we know if we still have a constitutional republic. I also don't th... Be honest with yourself. We already know that answer. Even if we got that "jugular lunge", do you expect it to be followed? The Supreme Court has no mechanism to enact its rulings alone. |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 10:07:35 AM EDT
[#28]
~400 pages is a lot of paper and words to wipe my ass with.
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Posted: 4/13/2024 10:12:01 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mnew007: ~400 pages is a lot of paper and words to wipe my ass with. Those are echos of Hitlers words, and Mao's, and pol pots Show respect for their heros in disarming THEN mass slaughter |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 10:24:37 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Elkins45: I go to most shows within an hour or two away and I see 9 or 10 of the same guys at every show, year after year. As soon as they trade for a gun they slap a price tag on it and drop it on their table. Until I see one of them being dragged out in handcuffs I’m going to conclude this is all just performative bullshit. Those guys have been flagrantly “engaging in the business” for years and ATF hasn’t done shit about it. Those guys are probably snitches and should be avoided. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 4/13/2024 11:29:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Elkins45]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bubbles: Those guys are probably snitches and should be avoided. I hope not because I’ve bought/traded guns from some of them in the past. Of course, with the new rule once they get nabbed they will probably be happy to be a honeypot for ATF if it keeps them out of prison. |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 11:33:43 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Everrest: RINOs Now Say ATF's New Rule Is Lawless & Unconstitutional…But They Enabled It! WTF!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgK_jZCqclI15 GOP senators voted for it. |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 11:48:43 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Elkins45: Those guys have been flagrantly “engaging in the business” for years and ATF hasn’t done shit about it. Well now that's coming to an end. The ATF is going to be all over the place busting people as soon as it goes into effect in 30 days. |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 12:15:49 PM EDT
[#34]
Seems to me that the easy way to avoid being prosecuted under this final rule is pretty simple--sell the gun for a loss. Then the phrase in the rule “to predominantly earn a profit" goes out the window.
But we all know this is 466 pages of bullshit and taxpayer money wasted by the BATF. FMG |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 12:22:24 PM EDT
[#35]
So resellers and panic speculators can be gotten as unlicensed dealers.
But you know as well as I do that nobody is enforcing these laws. |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 12:25:51 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BuddyChryst: So resellers and panic speculators can be gotten as unlicensed dealers. But you know as well as I do that nobody is enforcing these laws. I’ve been reporting all the EE KAC profiteer WTS ads as unlicensed dealers. |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 12:32:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BSOG1]
[#37]
KAC profiteers... LOL
this wont hold up when the lawsuits fly. so if my house sells at a profit im a realtor ? my car sells at a profit im a car dealer ? obviously guys buying five of one model and then selling them is grey. if i sold three guns that i had 30 years, to buy one cool one i always wanted that isnt being a dealer. this shit will get struck down. its more stupid then the brace stuff. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Subpar: I’ve been reporting all the EE KAC profiteer WTS ads as unlicensed dealers. |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 12:39:47 PM EDT
[#38]
Does this make gun "buy back" programs illegal?
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/13/2024 12:54:10 PM EDT
[#39]
So can I open a “gun store” without an FFL to only buy guns? I’ll offer 30% retail in cash.
For the elderly and newly divorced. No sales, just purchases. |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 1:08:20 PM EDT
[#40]
What about trading one in to an FFL for a different firearm?
Would that be legal or illegal based on the ruling? |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 1:38:12 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JThompson: What about trading one in to an FFL for a different firearm? Would that be legal or illegal based on the ruling? Cocaine dusted pedo politician's boy? He can sell glocks converted to FA for $2k each, and walk free . Post memes online about cocaine dusted pedo politician's boy, selling glocks converted to FA for $2k each? Your name will be on the watch list. Sell a broken HI Point frame for $1, and go directly to jail. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 4/13/2024 4:39:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Elkins45]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JThompson: What about trading one in to an FFL for a different firearm? Would that be legal or illegal based on the ruling? As long as a licensed dealer was involved in the transaction it is legal. You can even do that in California. The ruling is only about transactions between two unlicensed persons. |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 4:57:47 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Duck_Hunt: Who the fuck allows those cock suckers to have a booth at shot show? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Duck_Hunt: Originally Posted By osprey21: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/766/ATFgay-3147229.jpg Who the fuck allows those cock suckers to have a booth at shot show? I would bet the shot show promoters would rather stay in the good graces of our atf overlords or there is some requirement for them to have a presence durring shot show thus they get a table. |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 4:59:40 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JThompson: What about trading one in to an FFL for a different firearm? Would that be legal or illegal based on the ruling? Not allowed. Straight to jail. |
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NE, USA
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Posted: 4/13/2024 5:00:47 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bhart89: I’d like to subscribe to your newsletter. why, it's stupid advice If you ever got charged and went to court, just how long do you think that dumbasss claim would hold up for a defense |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 5:04:43 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Going to kill Gun broker and armslist used gun sales How so? The guns just go through a local to you ffl. It’s a fucked up rule and should get punted by the courts but it won’t kill online sites that facilitate sales of used guns. It’s not like arms list couldn’t set up an office and get an ffl. Honestly them doing this could be the way the ffl system gets gotten away with since if I make available space online for the sale of used guns that requires me to have a ffl thus requiring a bound book that can be inspected for guns I never possession let alone see I would think would get me a favorable ruling in say the 5th circuit. |
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Posted: 4/13/2024 5:07:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Kent]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Elkins45: As long as a licensed dealer was involved in the transaction it is legal. You can even do that in California. The ruling is only about transactions between two unlicensed persons. I don't think that is correct. Would you mind pointing out where the rule states that? From my reading, I didn't see anything about exempting transactions with an FFL from their judging whether or not you as an unlicensed person are in violation. People keep saying this rule will "kill private F2F sales", but from the text of the rule, its scope is far FAR greater than that, encompassing ALL unlicensed persons, whether they sell to an FFL or not. |
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KY, USA
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Posted: 4/13/2024 6:14:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Elkins45]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kent: I don't think that is correct. Would you mind pointing out where the rule states that? From my reading, I didn't see anything about exempting transactions with an FFL from their judging whether or not you as an unlicensed person are in violation. People keep saying this rule will "kill private F2F sales", but from the text of the rule, its scope is far FAR greater than that, encompassing ALL unlicensed persons, whether they sell to an FFL or not. https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/undefined/finalrule2022r-17f-questionsandanswerspdf/download “ Individuals may continue to make intrastate private sales without a license provided they do not rise to the level of being “engaged in the business,” and the transactions are otherwise compliant with law.” |
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USA
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Posted: 4/13/2024 6:26:50 PM EDT
[#49]
Should I feel like selling a Title 1 firearm in a transaction that doesn’t cross a state line, I’m going to completely disregard this unconstitutional nonsense. For any anti-freedom ATF agents perusing this thread, ”FUCK THE ATF”.
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Posted: 4/13/2024 7:39:16 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By notso: Be honest with yourself. We already know that answer. Even if we got that "jugular lunge", do you expect it to be followed? The Supreme Court has no mechanism to enact its rulings alone. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By notso: Originally Posted By JmE: Originally Posted By Mr-Mockingbird: FJB is sure playing the part of poking the bear over and over, hoping for a violent reaction so the bear can be put down Hold the line Don't do anything overly stupid right now. We're over the target; explains all the flak ... n agenda. That same agenda still has legs today. Frankly, I don't think there is enough time for the Supreme Court to smack all of this down before the Court is changed to something more pliable. We need a jugular lunge in a case that challenges the NFA, GCA, etc. Then, and only then, will we know if we still have a constitutional republic. I also don't th... Be honest with yourself. We already know that answer. Even if we got that "jugular lunge", do you expect it to be followed? The Supreme Court has no mechanism to enact its rulings alone. I honestly don't know. I have a glimmer of hope that the Court would rule properly but know better than to hold my breath. And, yes, even if they did rule properly ("shall not be infringed"), the Court apparently has little to no teeth. However, it might be a wake-up to some that need it that our Republic is stone dead or if there is still a little life left in her. At least that important question could be answered. |
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