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Posted: 4/21/2024 12:04:22 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By echofivekilo: Also didn’t realize we’d jumped to CQB. That’s a good one to listen to one of Matt Pranka’s podcasts on. He’s the expert there. That's debatable and a whole other rabbit hole that you can go down. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 12:06:47 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By S-1: That's debatable and a whole other rabbit hole that you can go down. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By S-1: Originally Posted By echofivekilo: Also didn’t realize we’d jumped to CQB. That’s a good one to listen to one of Matt Pranka’s podcasts on. He’s the expert there. That's debatable and a whole other rabbit hole that you can go down. There's a joke in there. You missed it. I think it's funny but you might not like it. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 12:13:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: The problem is tactical instructors teaching bad shooting fundamentals... thats what Stoeger is calling them out on. He doesn't teach CQB... he doesn't teach maneuver warfare. He teaches people what they need to do to improve their shooting... and he calls out these morons when they teach stuff that is bad for their students shooting skills.... And every time, there's responses about all this tactical nonsense that has nothing to do with what those instructors are being called out for. Exactly. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 12:31:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Fooboy]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RePp: Exactly. Adding to this, I would argue that civilian pistol shooting needs are far more reaction based. You're not assaulting a target or conducting operations or part of a team. In the most likely circumstances you are on your own, going about your day and reacting to an unplanned threat on the street, a gas station, a store isle, etc. That aligns much more with competitive shooting because it's focus is putting accurate rounds on target quickly versus all the other important and complex stuff that goes into being a soldier. ETA: Observation - people who disparage shot timers & competition tend to do so because they don't place well. It's a game but it does impart value - it's not tactical training. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 1:13:23 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fooboy: ETA: Observation - people who disparage shot timers & completion tend to do so because they don't place well. It's a game but it does impart value - it's not tactical training. Going to a match and getting smoked by B class shooters isn't exactly good for fantasy camp business. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 1:36:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BaconFat: Going to a match and getting smoked by B class shooters isn't exactly good for fantasy camp business. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BaconFat: Originally Posted By Fooboy: ETA: Observation - people who disparage shot timers & completion tend to do so because they don't place well. It's a game but it does impart value - it's not tactical training. Going to a match and getting smoked by B class shooters isn't exactly good for fantasy camp business. You hear this a lot from snipers that get into PRS shooting... their peers won't do it because their ego can't handle it |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 1:43:14 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: You hear this a lot from snipers that get into PRS shooting... their peers won't do it because their ego can't handle it I shot with a bunch of dudes from group and the regiment when I was in Washington. Super good dudes but I never saw them crack the mid pack. “ Man we were at Hat Creek last month. Can only imagine if we hadn’t done that first”. Lots of teams shot the RTC matches since it was a field match, ranging on the clocks and in pairs. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 2:00:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mark5pt56]
[#8]
You just have to get out there, somewhere and try to improve. My eye opener was first time doing IPSC at Dam Neck, years ago prior to 9-11.
Was a course called "Hammertime" 8 targets in a horseshoe, 7 yards away. Virgina count, fixed time of 6 seconds. On signal, draw and engage T1-T4, 2 rounds each, reload and engage T5-T8 with 2 rounds each. I thought I was good until the buzzer goes off during the reload! I made it a point to beat that course and eventually did, cleaning it with a SW 5906 from a Safariland SSIII holster. I was door kicking at the time and shot with some good shooters, one being Todd Jarrett in the early days of Blackwater. The king himself stated "I'm an x time world champ but I'll be dammed if I'll kick a door and go in after an armed felon!" There was also a SEAL "TS" he would normally shoot a race gun and after enough folks would say he was only good because of that, the next match he would show up with his P226 and spank the crap out of them. He was like the Iceman, no errors, a freaking robot. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 2:06:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BaconFat]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: You hear this a lot from snipers that get into PRS shooting... their peers won't do it because their ego can't handle it I wouldn't expect the LARP'er to go, but the Instructor that can't go to a match an execute the fundamentals at a minimum of a Master level should be called out for lacking solid fundamentals But that doesn't happen in the timmay world, they just want story time, timed tactical tourniquet tying and critical dynamic apple bobbing. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 2:16:19 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fooboy: Yep. Adding to this, I would argue that civilian pistol shooting needs are far more reaction based. You're not assaulting a target or conducting operations or part of a team. In the most likely circumstances you are on your own, going about your day and reacting to an unplanned threat on the street, a gas station, a store isle, etc. That aligns much more with competitive shooting because it's focus is putting accurate rounds on target quickly versus all the other important and complex stuff that goes into being a soldier. ETA: Observation - people who disparage shot timers & completion tend to do so because they don't place well. It's a game but it does impart value - it's not tactical training. 100%. Regular people need to learn how to counter the tactics that will be used on them. Wherever and whoever those tactics come from. If I encounter a coyote in the woods, I want to know where the others are hiding and their anticipated movements. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 2:21:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BaconFat: I wouldn't expect the LARP'er to go, but the Instructor that can't go to a match an execute the fundamentals at a minimum of a Master level should be called out for lacking solid fundamentals But that doesn't happen in the timmay world, they just want story time, timed tactical tourniquet tying and critical dynamic apple bobbing. Dakota, is that you? |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 2:38:23 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Colt653: the best pistol shooters in the world are USPSA Grand Masters SOF-D hires them to learn to shoot better and faster. Suppresive fire, CQB, bounding overwatch, land nav, rappelling, etc. are not taught by USPSA GM's It's that fucking simple.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB8iFUnz_gI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W80aszslEeUI shot with Mike Pannone quite a bit when he lived in Tucson. He would drive up for the weekend matches. Solid shooter and interesting guy. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 2:42:07 PM EDT
[#13]
People get ate up with this shit and like to fantasize about running and gunning their way through life. Training with Haley makes them a “gunfighter” not a man carrying a gun for self defense. A gunfighter! There are threads here from time to time with guys who claim they carry their gun around the house 24hrs a day because there is a chance of a home invasion. Have there recliner facing the front door ready to draw and fire on anyone who would dare… |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 2:42:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BMSMB]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RePp: I shot with a bunch of dudes from group and the regiment when I was in Washington. Super good dudes but I never saw them crack the mid pack. “ Man we were at Hat Creek last month. Can only imagine if we hadn’t done that first”. Lots of teams shot the RTC matches since it was a field match, ranging on the clocks and in pairs. If that's true, good to hear! My finger has been off the PRS pulse since I started getting more into USPSA. It seemed to be a common trend before that though |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 2:48:16 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fooboy: Yep. Adding to this, I would argue that civilian pistol shooting needs are far more reaction based. You're not assaulting a target or conducting operations or part of a team. In the most likely circumstances you are on your own, going about your day and reacting to an unplanned threat on the street, a gas station, a store isle, etc. That aligns much more with competitive shooting because it's focus is putting accurate rounds on target quickly versus all the other important and complex stuff that goes into being a soldier. ETA: Observation - people who disparage shot timers & competition tend to do so because they don't place well. It's a game but it does impart value - it's not tactical training. Yep. Practicing something a simple as the el presidente drill with 50round twice a month is way more valuable for the concealed carrying man than doing dynamic 4 man entry into a building in the dark with nods with a bunch of people you are probably never going to see again in your life. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 3:08:47 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bg10: Outside of the BJJ stuff (not the “full kit” part), everything else you listed is a waste of time for 99% of people that aren’t in an LE/Mil capacity. And TBH, 99% of LE/Mil would likely be better served working on the hard skills learned by shooting matches than silly stuff like “vehicle CQB”. Guys like Matt Pranka agree, and I’d wager he has more experience gunfighting in a tier 1 capacity than anyone on this site. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bg10: Originally Posted By FedDC: You have no idea what to care about because you lack life experience to separate reality from theory. Start with cardio, get good at BJJ and person under control methodology, roll around in the mat room in full kit for a month or three, master urban and rural SUT, learn room entry and basic CQB, add in vehicle CQB, do all that as a team in both day and night….and after that…what Ben says is useful. Outside of the BJJ stuff (not the “full kit” part), everything else you listed is a waste of time for 99% of people that aren’t in an LE/Mil capacity. And TBH, 99% of LE/Mil would likely be better served working on the hard skills learned by shooting matches than silly stuff like “vehicle CQB”. Guys like Matt Pranka agree, and I’d wager he has more experience gunfighting in a tier 1 capacity than anyone on this site. Being able to gunfight in and around your vehicle…matters…a lot. If you think it’s simple, easy, or silly…good luck. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 3:29:37 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FedDC: Being able to gunfight in and around your vehicle…matters…a lot.  For who? The crowd who masturbates at their chance for OK Corral in the WalMart parking lot? |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 3:41:48 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By macman37: Yeegads. Who is teaching suppressing fire in a street fight? I can tell you from training with 5 or 6 in-person trainers and watching training videos from another couple dozen, I’ve never seen suppressing fire being taught. The opposite in fact. The regular world is not Mogadishu. In Sims training, when starting with two students in the open. The winner is often the person who runs to cover while point shooting, then, upon reaching cover, switches to aimed fire. Versus someone who stays on the X and goes immediately to aimed fire |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 3:42:55 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: The problem is tactical instructors teaching bad shooting fundamentals... thats what Stoeger is calling them out on. He doesn't teach CQB... he doesn't teach maneuver warfare. He teaches people what they need to do to improve their shooting... and he calls out these morons when they teach stuff that is bad for their students shooting skills.... And every time, there's responses about all this tactical nonsense that has nothing to do with what those instructors are being called out for. Is this thread about tactical firearms courses or marksmanship instruction? |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 3:46:01 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BaconFat: I wouldn't expect the LARP'er to go, but the Instructor that can't go to a match an execute the fundamentals at a minimum of a Master level should be called out for lacking solid fundamentals But that doesn't happen in the timmay world, they just want story time, timed tactical tourniquet tying and critical dynamic apple bobbing. If you want to talk fundamentals of marksmanship, then we should be talking NRA Bullseye competition |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 3:47:33 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Never_A_Wick: For who? The crowd who masturbates at their chance for OK Corral in the WalMart parking lot? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Never_A_Wick: Originally Posted By FedDC: Being able to gunfight in and around your vehicle…matters…a lot. For who? The crowd who masturbates at their chance for OK Corral in the WalMart parking lot? Police officers, and anyone that could ever be a victim of a carjacking |
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USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 3:49:40 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: If you want to talk fundamentals of marksmanship, then we should be talking NRA Bullseye competition I'm talking about the fundamentals of shooting. Accuracy with speed, recoil control, transitions, movement, shooting on the move. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 3:59:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: StevenH]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BaconFat: I'm talking about the fundamentals of shooting. Accuracy with speed, recoil control, transitions, movement, shooting on the move. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BaconFat: Originally Posted By StevenH: If you want to talk fundamentals of marksmanship, then we should be talking NRA Bullseye competition I'm talking about the fundamentals of shooting. Accuracy with speed, recoil control, transitions, movement, shooting on the move. You seem very narrow minded. You’re overly focused on your own game. You shoot relatively large targets at close range, and a near miss still counts. Then in the next post, those like you stated a near miss in a gunfight, that gets your opponent to put his head down, so you can escape or flank him has no value. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:03:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BaconFat]
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: You seem very narrow minded. You’re overly focused on your own game. You shoot relatively large targets at close range, and a near miss still counts. Then in the next post, those like you stated a near miss in a gunfight, that gets your opponent to put his head down, so you can escape or flank him has no value. I'm focused on the fundamentals of shooting. You seem to think it's OK to sling shots down range without care of where they go. Do you Sim training with everyone standing around the 2 shooters, see how well suppressive fire works. The bullet doesn't magically disappear just because the other guy ducks |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:03:39 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Is this thread about tactical firearms courses or marksmanship instruction? This thread is about Stoeger calling out tactical instructors on teaching shooting wrong. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:03:57 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FedDC: Being able to gunfight in and around your vehicle…matters…a lot. If you think it’s simple, easy, or silly…good luck. If I'm in my vehicle in the drivers seat, I got a lil' something that packs a little more punch than the 115 gr. spicy balls in my carry gun. It weighs approximately 2.5 tons and is self propelled by a 310 horsepower six cylinder engine. Away, around, over, through, doesn't matter. As long as that engine is spinning and the transmission and transfer case are connecting, I'll be using that. If my truck is mobility killed or boxed, I'm going to be bailing. Sitting there without any mobility, poor observation of my surrounding, close to no cover and minimal concealment is dumb. I'm bailing. After that it becomes a pretty basic IMT and eventually a shooting problem. The IMT part is pretty simple. Yes, it is. Not easy, and requires discipline, but it is simple. Anyone claiming otherwise is selling rubber dog shit and anyone who has so much as been a 11B1O for like five minutes should recognize that. Eventually you will have to shoot. You need to get hits faster than you get shot. You can use cover and concealment to mitigate the getting shot part, but you still have to do the getting hits part. Some people get lucky. Some people get less lucky, but lucky enough that instead of pointing out that their shooting wasn't very good, the gun industry develops a really stupid caliber that beats the shit out of LE service pistols for a couple of decades. Most people just end up dead on Live Leak. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:11:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FedDC: Being able to gunfight in and around your vehicle…matters…a lot. If you think it’s simple, easy, or silly…good luck. Is this some kind of LARP fantasy? |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:14:51 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: You seem very narrow minded. You’re overly focused on your own game. You shoot relatively large targets at close range, and a near miss still counts. Then in the next post, those like you stated a near miss in a gunfight, that gets your opponent to put his head down, so you can escape or flank him has no value. You show your ignorance so readily. |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:15:57 PM EDT
[#29]
Ya'll need to chill out.
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:18:40 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: In Sims training, when starting with two students in the open. The winner is often the person who runs to cover while point shooting, then, upon reaching cover, switches to aimed fire. Versus someone who stays on the X and goes immediately to aimed fire Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Originally Posted By macman37: Yeegads. Who is teaching suppressing fire in a street fight? I can tell you from training with 5 or 6 in-person trainers and watching training videos from another couple dozen, I’ve never seen suppressing fire being taught. The opposite in fact. The regular world is not Mogadishu. In Sims training, when starting with two students in the open. The winner is often the person who runs to cover while point shooting, then, upon reaching cover, switches to aimed fire. Versus someone who stays on the X and goes immediately to aimed fire I have also never seen anyone teach “staying on the X” |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:18:53 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Never_A_Wick: You show your ignorance so readily. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Never_A_Wick: Originally Posted By StevenH: You seem very narrow minded. You’re overly focused on your own game. You shoot relatively large targets at close range, and a near miss still counts. Then in the next post, those like you stated a near miss in a gunfight, that gets your opponent to put his head down, so you can escape or flank him has no value. You show your ignorance so readily. Why are you pretending that a miss of the huge A zone doesnt count in your game? |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:20:27 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By crownvic96: Ya'll need to chill out. https://preview.redd.it/who-did-the-ocular-pat-down-better-v0-58igm21ioqib1.jpg?width=511&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1da778bca831651873d2916c06dbd38e0f5fd889 I'm chill. I haven't posted the Gangster Party Hotline video. I mean, I mostly haven't posted it because they use naughty words that the site staff will get twisted panties over (and thats fair enough I guess) but I haven't posted it. Or quoted it. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:22:01 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By macman37: I have also never seen anyone teach “staying on the X” Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By macman37: Originally Posted By StevenH: Originally Posted By macman37: Yeegads. Who is teaching suppressing fire in a street fight? I can tell you from training with 5 or 6 in-person trainers and watching training videos from another couple dozen, I’ve never seen suppressing fire being taught. The opposite in fact. The regular world is not Mogadishu. In Sims training, when starting with two students in the open. The winner is often the person who runs to cover while point shooting, then, upon reaching cover, switches to aimed fire. Versus someone who stays on the X and goes immediately to aimed fire I have also never seen anyone teach “staying on the X” Call it a shooting box then. Do you deny the benefits of firing a less than perfectly aimed shot while moving to cover? Aka suppressive fire |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:22:02 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Why are you pretending that a miss of the huge A zone doesnt count in your game? Why are you pretending a hit to the C and D zones arent still wounding or potentially fatal hits? |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:22:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Why are you pretending that a miss of the huge A zone doesnt count in your game? You know theres a C and a D zone, right? Those aren't misses. They count for less points. Misses count for zero points, sometimes negative points. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:22:48 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Call it a shooting box then. Do you deny the benefits of firing a less than perfectly aimed shot while moving to cover? Aka suppressive fire You mean shooting on the move? I practice to be able to still make acceptable hits on target while I do it. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:23:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: brasscrossedrifles]
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Why are you pretending a hit to the C and D zones arent still wounding or potentially fatal hits? I was reading a book one time where this guy talked about people who argued like that. He went on to remark that he gradually began to hate them. He might have been a little over emotional about it though, seemed a little upsetty spaghetti about not getting into art school. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:34:17 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: Call it a shooting box then. Do you deny the benefits of firing a less than perfectly aimed shot while moving to cover? Aka suppressive fire How about getting hits while moving to cover? That seems like a better idea to me. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:40:07 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By StevenH: You seem very narrow minded. You’re overly focused on your own game. You shoot relatively large targets at close range, and a near miss still counts. Then in the next post, those like you stated a near miss in a gunfight, that gets your opponent to put his head down, so you can escape or flank him has no value. How on earth does a near miss count? You really have no idea what you are talking about do you? Relatively large targets…have you seen USPSA poppers? Or hard cover zebra targets? Could you even hit either at 25 yards at any speed? Doubtful… |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:42:46 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BMSMB: Why are you pretending a hit to the C and D zones arent still wounding or potentially fatal hits? He should shoot 99-63 and tell us how “huge” the A zone is on the far target.  |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:50:07 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Never_A_Wick: He should shoot 99-63 and tell us how “huge” the A zone is on the far target. Right? It is easy until you get your ass handed to you. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 4:58:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BMSMB]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Never_A_Wick: He should shoot 99-63 and tell us how “huge” the A zone is on the far target. He's more the sort that tries to brag about hitting the most A's while still shooting 30% of the winning score |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 5:12:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Never_A_Wick]
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fastluck13: Right? It is easy until you get your ass handed to you. I shot it yesterday. I got all 12 hits on the far target and all 6 on the weak hand target. Had a Mike on the strong hand target. Didn’t respect it and put one over the top on the first shot.  It’s not an easy classifier. One of my buddies didn’t have his SRO zeroed right and had 21 Mikes for the stage. 
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Posted: 4/21/2024 5:13:55 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FedDC: Being able to gunfight in and around your vehicle…matters…a lot. If you think it’s simple, easy, or silly…good luck. I’ve spent the last 15 years of my life dealing with vehicle take downs, jams, blocks, vehicle extractions, felony takedowns and run of the mill traffic stops in a high crime city, so I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about how to not get killed in or around a car. What I’ve landed on is a gunfight in and around a vehicle is like a gunfight anywhere else: The fastest guy to get accurate hits wins. That’s what it all boils down to. Not ocular science or neurological transmission rates or the bullet stopping capabilities of the B pillar on an Impala vs. a Taurus. I stand by my assertion that it is a waste of time. Teaching this stuff to cops when many can barely pass an easy qual is a waste of limited training time. Cops nationwide sit at about 30% accuracy in shootings, less than that in gunfights. If you took into account “good hits” say A zone, my guess it’s probably in the single digits. If cops put the same emphasis on speed and accuracy as many competition shooters they wouldn’t need to play “chase each other around a car with sims guns” or “duct tape this tennis ball to your hand you’re an injured shooter!” at “training” because they’d end gunfights before they got started. TBH, I preferred the “cover vs. concealment, engine block is your best hope stop a round, get out and fight from rear if you can,” 15 minute rundown we got before VCQB™️ became all the rage, back in the day before training outfits figured out they could start charging people for a multi-day class built around it. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 5:23:36 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Never_A_Wick: I shot it yesterday. I got all 12 hits on the far target and all 6 on the weak hand target. Had a Mike on the strong hand target. Didn’t respect it and put one over the top on the first shot. It’s not an easy classifier. One of my buddies didn’t have his SRO zeroed right and had 21 Mikes for the stage. I know those feels  Back when I still ran irons, I'd put new dawson sights on my gun, and didn't have a chance to check zero with them. Went to my first ever classifier match and learned how far off they were at 25 yards... luckily that was long before I had a membership, so the scores didn't hurt me. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 5:26:40 PM EDT
[#46]
This guys problem is he has a ton of guns and shoots a different one every week. Always fiddling with them.
He could get out of B class if he would just stick to one gun for a while 
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Posted: 4/21/2024 5:29:58 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bg10: I’ve spent the last 15 years of my life dealing with vehicle take downs, jams, blocks, vehicle extractions, felony takedowns and run of the mill traffic stops in a high crime city, so I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about how to not get killed in or around a car. What I’ve landed on is a gunfight in and around a vehicle is like a gunfight anywhere else: The fastest guy to get accurate hits wins. That’s what it all boils down to. Not ocular science or neurological transmission rates or the bullet stopping capabilities of the B pillar on an Impala vs. a Taurus. I stand by my assertion that it is a waste of time. Teaching this stuff to cops when many can barely pass an easy qual is a waste of limited training time. Cops nationwide sit at about 30% accuracy in shootings, less than that in gunfights. If you took into account “good hits” say A zone, my guess it’s probably in the single digits. If cops put the same emphasis on speed and accuracy as many competition shooters they wouldn’t need to play “chase each other around a car with sims guns” or “duct tape this tennis ball to your hand you’re an injured shooter!” at “training” because they’d end gunfights before they got started. TBH, I preferred the “cover vs. concealment, engine block is your best hope stop a round, get out and fight from rear if you can,” 15 minute rundown we got before VCQB™️ became all the rage, back in the day before training outfits figured out they could start charging people for a multi-day class built around it. Huh, guy who actually does it for real a lot, TL; DR is basically "its basic IMT and get hits faster than you get shot" with slightly different wording than the guy thats just a former Infantry dude with some common sense. No love for rubber dog shit circus tricks at all. Man, what a time line. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 5:31:43 PM EDT
[#48]
Officer Involved Shooting
I shoot with the officer in this video. He started shooting USPSA because he needed to be better than the standard the PD required. After the fact he made comments that almost certainly would have been stabbed if he did not shoot USPSA. The guy was running from about 7 yards away. That takes about a second. The bad guy was shot with 1 less than lethal and 7 pistol rounds. 7 for 7 hits. The officer described the detail he was able to process because of shooting competition. Both knives, the color, the grip he had on the gun, the sight picture, where the hits were, etc. the bad guy fell a few feet away. Lots of officers around. No cover, no suppressing fire, no time to get off the x, no commando rolls. Just got to work with the skills he had from shooting matches. I want to say was maybe A class? |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 5:40:56 PM EDT
[#49]
He remembered everything else because the shooting was automatic.
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Posted: 4/21/2024 5:44:26 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Advance: Both are indeed right... For vastly different scenarios. Now all we have to do is be honest with ourselves and identify which scenario is more likely to be encountered by a non LEO/Mil person and which tools are realistically available. I don't have 3-5 trained up dudes at my side 24/7 or a drone circling overhead providing a real time link to a TOC. I do however have a pistol that I carry and I am often "alone" when I carry it. A few Stoeger classes are going to be more beneficial to me than anything involving team tactics, CQB, comms, shoot/move/communicate, etc. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Advance: Originally Posted By -Ascent-: It’s more like. Mil dudes understanding there’s more to fighting than just the ability to shoot fast and accurate. Comp dudes. In order to be successful at competition you must shoot fast and accurate. That translates to having the advantage in a self defense situation. Both can be right. Both are indeed right... For vastly different scenarios. Now all we have to do is be honest with ourselves and identify which scenario is more likely to be encountered by a non LEO/Mil person and which tools are realistically available. I don't have 3-5 trained up dudes at my side 24/7 or a drone circling overhead providing a real time link to a TOC. I do however have a pistol that I carry and I am often "alone" when I carry it. A few Stoeger classes are going to be more beneficial to me than anything involving team tactics, CQB, comms, shoot/move/communicate, etc. This is the misnomer that a lot of our competition bros here don't understand. Sure plenty of it doesn't apply. However, a lot of the tactical stuff the military and cops train on does translate to a lot of self defense scenarios. Training on individual movement techniques, fire and maneuver and force on force gives you valuable and dynamic training on skill sets that are useful in any gunfight. Competition shooting is good for a lot of reasons. So is tactical training. Which one is more important? Well that depends. If you're a grand master, who has never done force on force training, you are less prepared for a gunfight than you think you are (still WAY better prepared than the vast majority.) As others have already mentioned, if you're a Soldier or cop with decent tactical training, but no competition or similar shot timer training on the basics; then your skills probably aren't where they should be. |
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