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USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 6:36:00 PM EDT
[#1]
What is it that has changed so much that makes soloing take so long these days?
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Posted: 4/20/2024 6:42:04 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Meathook: What is it that has changed so much that makes soloing take so long these days? Probably more people learning at fields with a tower. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 6:42:58 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bogdan: Landing in severe crosswind is like having an orgasm and a bowel movement at the same time. That good? |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 6:46:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Taildragger]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: https://cdn.britannica.com/24/48324-050-FE5B13DD/P-47-Thunderbolt-World-War-II.jpg So pilot guys. How the heck did WW2 pilots safely taxi, not run into anything; when the nose was pointed way up in the air?  Eh, trying to insert image. https://i.postimg.cc/VsF81k0t/Taxi-S-N-F.jpg My back-seater took this. Employing 'S' turns an looking around the nose. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 6:51:51 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillofRights: I’ve flown some tw but it was a long time ago. Do most tail draggers require you to use a different technique where you look out the side? That was nothing I ever heard, read or taught. Some of the smaller trainers don't require it (Champ, Citabria, etc) because even in a 3-point landing attitude you can see over the nose. In the more varsity taildraggers (everything from the Stearman up to the fighters) you can only see down at the 930 and 1430 positions...everything else is blocked by a fuselage/engine in front of you and the wings blocking the view to the ground on both sides. So, you clear in front of you during the base-to-final turn, and everything else is flown with reference out the side, all the way to the chocks. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 6:54:37 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Scoobysmak: I am not going to say the Navy way is better in that video and that it was a good landing......but I am looking for the videos of the AF landing on a carrier on a regular bases in flight school......so far I have not found them..... Carrier landings are unforgiving if you miss the tail hook aspect of it. Some of the training they get is a bit different. ETA....beat Here's a pic of one of my my arrested landings in the F-15E...this one at KSTL back 2002-ish.  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 6:56:58 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By muddywings: I’m going to be the jerk here. Some people have it, others don’t. I soloed at 8 hours. I never had an issue. It was just easy to me. I had friends in pilot training that just couldn’t do the three dimensional movements. Interestingly enough, the learning curve in pre-solo and even up through primary is not reflective of overall talent. There are plenty of people who struggle at the beginning and then are superb aviators once they have some experience. Same goes for folks who were very strong at the beginning and then plateaued out later and ended up sort of mediocre. I had students in the F-15E who were complete slugs as new wingmen, but went on to be Weapons School and Test Pilot School graduates and commanders. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 6:59:56 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: https://cdn.britannica.com/24/48324-050-FE5B13DD/P-47-Thunderbolt-World-War-II.jpg So pilot guys. How the heck did WW2 pilots safely taxi, not run into anything; when the nose was pointed way up in the air? Ground handling a taildragger is a specific skill. S-taxiing when on the ground to clear what's in front of you, and learning to look out the side to judge your 3-dimensional position when leaving or re-arriving to the ground. No level of skill or experience makes one immune to errors. 
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Posted: 4/20/2024 7:01:42 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Meathook: What is it that has changed so much that makes soloing take so long these days? CFIs who are risk-averse. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 7:07:55 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ske714: AOA is what determines when a wing stalls. Power has nothing to do with it. No, but air over the wing does. That is why high performance aerobatic aircraft, or fighters can fly at 90 degrees - power on. Grab an angle meter and practice some slow flight with different power settings. You will find that you can fly a higher angle with higher power than you can lower power settings. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 7:17:23 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Ground handling a taildragger is a specific skill. S-taxiing when on the ground to clear what's in front of you, and learning to look out the side to judge your 3-dimensional position when leaving or re-arriving to the ground. No level of skill or experience makes one immune to errors. https://cdn3.race-dezert.com/forum/data/attachment-files/2006/08/208951.TBM2.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: https://cdn.britannica.com/24/48324-050-FE5B13DD/P-47-Thunderbolt-World-War-II.jpg So pilot guys. How the heck did WW2 pilots safely taxi, not run into anything; when the nose was pointed way up in the air? Ground handling a taildragger is a specific skill. S-taxiing when on the ground to clear what's in front of you, and learning to look out the side to judge your 3-dimensional position when leaving or re-arriving to the ground. No level of skill or experience makes one immune to errors. https://cdn3.race-dezert.com/forum/data/attachment-files/2006/08/208951.TBM2.jpg  There was an incident around here not long ago between a Stearman and a Cadillac. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 7:17:31 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: No, but air over the wing does. That is why high performance aerobatic aircraft, or fighters can fly at 90 degrees - power on. Grab an angle meter and practice some slow flight with different power settings. You will find that you can fly a higher angle with higher power than you can lower power settings. Stall AOA is always stall AOA. Don't confuse that with the ability of some aircraft to continue controlled flight while at post-stall AOA. Post-stall-AOA flight is possible in aircraft that have the right combination of power and aircraft planform to work. It is simply the combination of the kinetic thrust of the engines and the flat-plane Newtonian force of the air hitting the bottom planform of the wings and fuselage which is keeping the aircraft airborne. The wing is not providing any "lift" in the traditional sense in this condition. Flow over the control surfaces is enough to provide sluggish and imprecise corrections (although in the T-38 and F-15E I could maintain Commercial PTS standards of heading/altitude/airspeed when in high-AOA flight). It is usually the military trainers and fighters who are capable of it, but the modern high-powered aerobatic aircraft can do it too. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 7:39:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ske714]
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: No, but air over the wing does. That is why high performance aerobatic aircraft, or fighters can fly at 90 degrees - power on. Grab an angle meter and practice some slow flight with different power settings. You will find that you can fly a higher angle with higher power than you can lower power settings. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: Originally Posted By ske714: AOA is what determines when a wing stalls. Power has nothing to do with it. No, but air over the wing does. That is why high performance aerobatic aircraft, or fighters can fly at 90 degrees - power on. Grab an angle meter and practice some slow flight with different power settings. You will find that you can fly a higher angle with higher power than you can lower power settings. Enough propwash over the wings may keep a very small section of wing from stalling, but the rest of the wing WILL be stalled when beyond critical AOA. You don't want to approach critical AOA until just inches above the ground. To the students here, the question will be on the test. https://horizonaviation.com/2022/07/13/understanding-stalls/ "The critical angle of attack is a fixed angle on every wing. It does not change. For example, a wing will stall at 15° flying at 50kts, and it will stall at 15° at 180kts. It will never stall unless the angle of attack exceeds 15°. This is just an example. Different wings will stall at a different AOA which should be referenced in the POH for that particular airplane." |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 8:06:08 PM EDT
[#14]
I'm surprised how poorly understood AOA is. How do you guys explain a controlled loop?
A stall is when COP goes off the cuff, it can happen at any AOA. Airflow over the wing, power settings, COG, weight are all variables. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 8:08:44 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: I'm surprised how poorly understood AOA is. How do you guys explain a controlled loop? A stall is when COP goes off the cuff, it can happen at any AOA. Airflow over the wing, power settings, COG, weight are all variables. Angle between the chord of the wing and relative airflow. Power ain’t got a thing to do with it. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 8:11:59 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Ground handling a taildragger is a specific skill. S-taxiing when on the ground to clear what's in front of you, and learning to look out the side to judge your 3-dimensional position when leaving or re-arriving to the ground. No level of skill or experience makes one immune to errors. https://cdn3.race-dezert.com/forum/data/attachment-files/2006/08/208951.TBM2.jpg So what’s the cost of that tear down? Holy Shit! 
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Posted: 4/20/2024 8:15:34 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: I'm surprised how poorly understood AOA is. How do you guys explain a controlled loop? A stall is when COP goes off the cuff, it can happen at any AOA. Airflow over the wing, power settings, COG, weight are all variables. You seem to be confusing deck angle with aoa. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 8:24:39 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Vne: You seem to be confusing deck angle with aoa. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Vne: Originally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: I'm surprised how poorly understood AOA is. How do you guys explain a controlled loop? A stall is when COP goes off the cuff, it can happen at any AOA. Airflow over the wing, power settings, COG, weight are all variables. You seem to be confusing deck angle with aoa. Trolling, I think. |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 8:33:58 PM EDT
[#19]
The first rule of flying is: avoid the ground at all times.
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Posted: 4/20/2024 8:41:21 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stevelish: Look to the end of the runway and try to NOT land….hold the plane 1’ off the runway for as long as you can. Ideally, hear the stall horn before you touch down. This . |
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Posted: 4/20/2024 8:44:14 PM EDT
[#21]
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Posted: 4/20/2024 8:44:35 PM EDT
[#22]
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MI, USA
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Posted: 4/20/2024 8:48:21 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Ground handling a taildragger is a specific skill. S-taxiing when on the ground to clear what's in front of you, and learning to look out the side to judge your 3-dimensional position when leaving or re-arriving to the ground. No level of skill or experience makes one immune to errors. https://cdn3.race-dezert.com/forum/data/attachment-files/2006/08/208951.TBM2.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: https://cdn.britannica.com/24/48324-050-FE5B13DD/P-47-Thunderbolt-World-War-II.jpg So pilot guys. How the heck did WW2 pilots safely taxi, not run into anything; when the nose was pointed way up in the air? Ground handling a taildragger is a specific skill. S-taxiing when on the ground to clear what's in front of you, and learning to look out the side to judge your 3-dimensional position when leaving or re-arriving to the ground. No level of skill or experience makes one immune to errors. https://cdn3.race-dezert.com/forum/data/attachment-files/2006/08/208951.TBM2.jpg Ooof 
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Posted: 4/20/2024 8:52:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: denverdan]
[#24]
Originally Posted By MudEagle: Stall AOA is always stall AOA. Don't confuse that with the ability of some aircraft to continue controlled flight while at post-stall AOA. Post-stall-AOA flight is possible in aircraft that have the right combination of power and aircraft planform to work. It is simply the combination of the kinetic thrust of the engines and the flat-plane Newtonian force of the air hitting the bottom planform of the wings and fuselage which is keeping the aircraft airborne. The wing is not providing any "lift" in the traditional sense in this condition. Flow over the control surfaces is enough to provide sluggish and imprecise corrections (although in the T-38 and F-15E I could maintain Commercial PTS standards of heading/altitude/airspeed when in high-AOA flight). It is usually the military trainers and fighters who are capable of it, but the modern high-powered aerobatic aircraft can do it too. Originally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: I'm surprised how poorly understood AOA is. How do you guys explain a controlled loop? A stall is when COP goes off the cuff, it can happen at any AOA. Airflow over the wing, power settings, COG, weight are all variables. I think the guy that flew F-15s explained it fairly well. I’m inclined to believe that guy. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 2:41:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: BillofRights]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: I'm surprised how poorly understood AOA is. How do you guys explain a controlled loop? A stall is when COP goes off the cuff, it can happen at any AOA. Airflow over the wing, power settings, COG, weight are all variables.  Wha??? Who are you and what backround do you have that makes you think AOA is poorly understood? |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 3:05:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JPN]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillofRights: Wha??? Who are you and what backround do you have that makes you think AOA is poorly understood? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillofRights: Originally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: I'm surprised how poorly understood AOA is. How do you guys explain a controlled loop? A stall is when COP goes off the cuff, it can happen at any AOA. Airflow over the wing, power settings, COG, weight are all variables. Wha??? Who are you and what backround do you have that makes you think AOA is poorly understood? It is so poorly understood (sarcasm) that even general aviation aircraft are starting to get AOA instruments installed to give the pilot a warning that the AOA is approaching the angle at which the plane will stall. I haven't been involved in doing an installation, yet, but there seems to be only one variable involved in the instrument making its determination of whether or not to turn the warning lights on - the angle between the relative wind and the chord line of the wing. I guess the stall warning horn (to warn the pilot that the angle between the relative wind and the chord line of the wing is too high) that was installed at the factory wasn't enough. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 8:25:14 AM EDT
[#27]
You'll get there OP. Something I tell my students to do it try to make a game out of the "flare" portion of the landing. I tell them as they level off above the runway and reduce power, try to hold it off as long as you can while dissipating the excess energy. Tell them to think "don't let it touch the ground, don't let it touch the ground." By doing this they're increasing the AOA which results landing at stall speedish, on the mains, and a soft landing 9 times out of 10. Lots of CFI's push looking at the end of the runway which I do agree with. Just don't stare at the end of the runway, keep your eyes moving. Best of luck!
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Posted: 4/21/2024 9:18:33 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By phungus: So what’s the cost of that tear down? Holy Shit! The RV pilot was killed, so pretty expensive I'd imagine. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 9:21:36 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: I'm surprised how poorly understood AOA is. How do you guys explain a controlled loop? A stall is when COP goes off the cuff, it can happen at any AOA. Airflow over the wing, power settings, COG, weight are all variables. Least self-aware post of the thread goes to... A stall can occur at any attitude (including any pitch attitude), but only one AOA. And, as previously stated, aircraft with certain combinations of power and weight can continue controlled flight while the lifting surfaces are at a post-stall AOA. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 9:33:45 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LeMonde: *CFI suggested I look at the end of the runway not in front of the plane That should help |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 9:54:53 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: The RV pilot was killed, so pretty expensive I'd imagine. I thought they had stopped just in time. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 9:59:52 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RV8guy: I thought they had stopped just in time. Well, depends on how you parse it. There were two people in the RV; the right-seater died and the left-seater lived. https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/44059 |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:23:55 AM EDT
[#34]
When Im about 1 foot over the runway I reach over and raise all the flaps. Problem solved.
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:31:45 AM EDT
[#35]
My landings got better once I stopped trying so hard to make them perfect. Relax and fly the plane.
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:36:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Vonbongo]
[#36]
Originally Posted By fast99: Trying to get a PPL. Have about 20 hours and 115 landings some good others not so much. This area has had a lot of wind, so training has been stretched out. CFI says I have all of it down except the last few seconds. Learned how to approach the runway and keep plane lined up until just before flare. Sometimes am little high, other times test the strength of the front gear. Depth perception a few feet off the runway is hard to get. CFI suggested I look at the end of the runway not in front of the plane. Going to try that next week. Any other suggestions other than more practice. I was going to suggest looking at the end of the runway, my CFI taught me that when I first started and it worked very well. My interim checks with other CFI and then my check ride I was complemented on landings. The other thing is , he wanted me to fly at least 3 times a week. I have a friend that did the same as you and stretching it out, it took him far more hours to get checked out. ETA - the game of holding it off the runway as mentioned above was also something we did, it was he wanted that stall horn blaring before the gear touched. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:43:34 AM EDT
[#37]
20 hrs and still landing trouble? How many hrs until your first solo?
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:44:08 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OTDR: When Im about 1 foot over the runway I reach over and raise all the flaps. Problem solved. I used to do this in a 172 I used to own. FAA safety types hate the fuck out of it but it sure makes for a nice landing. Wouldn't want to be in that habit with a complex aircraft though. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:45:08 AM EDT
[#39]
Whats funny is that a B737 lands more like an MQ-9 than it does like a B707/KC-135.
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:53:35 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OTDR: When Im about 1 foot over the runway I reach over and raise all the flaps. Problem solved. This is how to properly troll a general aviation thread. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 10:58:47 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: CFIs who are risk-averse. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Originally Posted By Meathook: What is it that has changed so much that makes soloing take so long these days? CFIs who are risk-averse. It used to be that flight students worked at the FBO/Hangar/Airport and already knew what the inside of a light airplane looked like. Now, instructors are teaching the very basics of flight. Most students can't tell you the difference between a C-172 and a 737 on their first day. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 11:17:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: MudEagle]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSixOne: And frankly way more people learning to fly that have no aviation background. It used to be that flight students worked at the FBO/Hangar/Airport and already knew what the inside of a light airplane looked like. Now, instructors are teaching the very basics of flight. Most students can't tell you the difference between a C-172 and a 737 on their first day. At the same time, I've been surprised with new PPL students that I've met who are very tuned up from the beginning based on PC flight sims. Took a 15 year old out on a discovery flight in a 172S a couple years ago who had obviously consumed hundreds of hours of YouTube and time playing MSFS. Outside of a few physiological factors (she had no idea what Gs were going to be like in a steep turn), she understood all of the procedural stuff in every phase of the flight as well as all the blocking-and-tackling basics of climbs/descents, turns, and even things like keeping the ball centered during stall and stall recovery. Beyond that, she ran the G1000 probably better than I could. On the opposite side, I've also flown with pre-solo students who spent a lot more time worried about their ForeFlight than, say, good situational awareness in the pattern or proper comm. Not to mention the ones who want to fiddle with their phones or GoPros and get mad when I tell them that stuff is prohibited in the cockpit whenever my signature is going in their logbook. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 11:28:58 AM EDT
[#43]
Go up in a glider a few times and surely you'll get it on the ground.
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Posted: 4/21/2024 11:29:23 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fast99: Plane is one of 2 Archer or Warrior, mostly the Warrior. Landings aren't consistent one time you can't tell it is on the ground next one hammers the gear. Usually, first one of the day is near perfect the rest are hit and miss. He wants the RPM at around 1400 after turning base but I can vairy it a little if I need to. He has never suggested dropping to idle. Like the idea of holding it just off the runway as practice it's long enough at 6k feet. Might suggest that and see if the CFI will allow it. Do wear progressive but had a set of bifocals made with the line higher. Haven't used them yet, will next week. Just started looking down the runway a couple lessons ago when CFI suggested it. Not sure why he didn't sooner if that's the best way. Thanks for the suggestions. The PA-28’s are fairly docile and easy to fly. One trick to consider: when the runway lights or edges of the runway are no longer coming up towards you but are moving past you, hold level and decrease power even more - while concentrating on the end of the runway |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 11:32:20 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JPN: It is so poorly understood (sarcasm) that even general aviation aircraft are starting to get AOA instruments installed to give the pilot a warning that the AOA is approaching the angle at which the plane will stall. I haven't been involved in doing an installation, yet, but there seems to be only one variable involved in the instrument making its determination of whether or not to turn the warning lights on - the angle between the relative wind and the chord line of the wing. I guess the stall warning horn (to warn the pilot that the angle between the relative wind and the chord line of the wing is too high) that was installed at the factory wasn't enough. I’ve done deliberate stalls where the horn never sounded…. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 11:43:20 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dorobuta: I’ve done deliberate stalls where the horn never sounded…. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dorobuta: Originally Posted By JPN: It is so poorly understood (sarcasm) that even general aviation aircraft are starting to get AOA instruments installed to give the pilot a warning that the AOA is approaching the angle at which the plane will stall. I haven't been involved in doing an installation, yet, but there seems to be only one variable involved in the instrument making its determination of whether or not to turn the warning lights on - the angle between the relative wind and the chord line of the wing. I guess the stall warning horn (to warn the pilot that the angle between the relative wind and the chord line of the wing is too high) that was installed at the factory wasn't enough. I’ve done deliberate stalls where the horn never sounded…. Same. Because it had no horn. |
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Posted: 4/21/2024 11:52:22 AM EDT
[#47]
My buddy now says:
"Dead stick ( engine off ) at the end."  1930's Ernst Udet |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 11:53:34 AM EDT
[#48]
Once I started focusing on the end of the runway, my landings improved dramatically.
It’ll click. You’ll do a lot of them. I probably had 300ish landings logged before my Checkride. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 12:00:07 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bogdan: Landing in severe crosswind is like having an orgasm and a bowel movement at the same time. Pretty much. When I was learning, my instructor made it a point to go out in the worst conditions possible. It was a 40’ wide, 3,000 foot runway. The owner felt if you were trained from the start under difficult conditions, once you got your license, everything else should be easily manageable. He was right. I got my license in 40.1 hours. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/21/2024 12:06:08 PM EDT
[#50]
Originally Posted By fast99:CFI suggested I look at the end of the runway not in front of the plane. Going to try that next week. Any other suggestions other than more practice. Dude...if that was not part of the technique taught by the CFI since day one, get another CFI. YOU CANNOT LAND AN AIRPLANE BY STARING AT YOUR POINT OF AIM/TOUCHDOWN POINT. PERIOD, END OF STORY. When transitioning to the flare, you MUST look as far down the runway/landing surface as possible. That is the ONLY way to land a plane properly. There is a reason that, below certain weather minima, an autoland is required. If you don't have enough of a frame of reference for your depth perception, i.e. can't see down the runway far enough, you will smack it on. BTW, this advice coming to you from someone who has over 1,000 hours dual given in 'little' airplanes, and now is a line check pilot teaching people how to do their first landings out of the simulator and in the actual 737. So take it for what it's worth. |
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