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Posted: 4/22/2024 2:13:59 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 4/22/2024 2:18:17 PM EDT
[#2]
42 years ago, my instructor suggested I look at the far end of the runway. You’ll figure it out. Just be on speed (most people come over the numbers way too fast), pull the power, start easing the nose up.
You’ll figure out how much pitch is too much. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 2:24:50 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By clearedoverhead: Try having an airforce pilot land on a carrier Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By clearedoverhead: Try having an airforce pilot land on a carrier When I was in high school, I went to a summer seminar at USNA. One of the session topics was engineering landing gear systems for carrier planes. They had a simple flight simulator setup that just did landings. I'd had a few hours of private lessons in a Cessna, so when it was my turn to try out the simulator, I tried to put the F-14 down just like I would a C172... The Navy instructor just laughed and said "That's how the Air Force does it. In the Navy, we just crash land the thing and hope the cable catches us before we hit the water." |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 2:24:57 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Cool view, cool airplane...nice landing. My favorite type of flying is a wood-and-fabric taildragger with no electrical system on a summer day and never getting higher than 300-ish feet. (video taken by a passenger on one of my flights around Memphis:)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UA56zNP4-kQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Originally Posted By ske714: I fly to have fun.  Cool view, cool airplane...nice landing. My favorite type of flying is a wood-and-fabric taildragger with no electrical system on a summer day and never getting higher than 300-ish feet. (video taken by a passenger on one of my flights around Memphis:) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UA56zNP4-kThanks! Yeah, it doesn't get any better than that. Any time you want to swap rides for a day, just let me know. :) |
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WY, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 2:58:05 PM EDT
[#5]
You can go up with your CFI and practice slow flight, figure out at what RPM (power) and trim up you need to keep the same altitude, then reduce RPM and trim up some more until you start losing altitude, and finally get the stall warning, which is a precursor to a stall. Then add power or reduce pitch to keep flying. Do that a few times. Note the power, trim and attitude, feel of the controls.
Now you have to go and practice your toutch-and-go's using those same settings from your slow flight, get to 1,000 ft AGL, exactly in the patters. Abeam the numbers, chop the power, trim up, turn base, check your glide slope/landing lights PAPI or whatever lights you have, control your descent to 500 ft per minute, turn final and aim for the landing zone, over the landing zone, pull back on the yolk to begin the flare, at this point you can add a bit of power back again, and fly down the runway, pretend that you don't want to land, and just fly down the runway until the plane lands itself. To smooth out the landing add some power back in during the flare, but, don't balloon it. If there is a x-wind, turn the yolk into the wind, use opposite rudder and maintain center line of the runway. The rest is the same, your upwind wheel must touch first then the other rear wheel and lastly the front wheel, maintain this control setting through the roll out. Practice and fly as much as possible. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 4:03:58 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillofRights: That’s what I figured. Well, you’re making no sense to the experienced 30k+ hour professionals, so I have to assume your post is also nonsensical to the newbies. Please try to use standard words and definitions. That’s how we communicate. We cannot read your thoughts. Try not to confuse a newbie who is sincerely trying to learn. Thx. Do you have 30k hours and have never heard a pilot refer to the wing not flying as a stall? I'd argue that calling a loss/lack of lift, the wing not flying etc a "stall" is the most common nomenclature in aviation. There are only a couple of people in this thread that want to deviate from that. Why, I have no idea. Point being, understanding "the point at which the wing stops flying" is critically important. As is knowing how mass, center of gravity, velocity, thrust etc all effect it. |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 4:09:09 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By denverdan: Wait a second. I wear progressive lenses. Is that what you’re talking about? All joking aside I have a hell of a time with the last 5-10 feet when I’m landing. It’s fine, you’re close enough to the ground at that point. Lol |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 4:44:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ske714]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: Do you have 30k hours and have never heard a pilot refer to the wing not flying as a stall? I'd argue that calling a loss/lack of lift, the wing not flying etc a "stall" is the most common nomenclature in aviation. There are only a couple of people in this thread that want to deviate from that. Why, I have no idea. Point being, understanding "the point at which the wing stops flying" is critically important. As is knowing how mass, center of gravity, velocity, thrust etc all effect it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: Originally Posted By BillofRights: That’s what I figured. Well, you’re making no sense to the experienced 30k+ hour professionals, so I have to assume your post is also nonsensical to the newbies. Please try to use standard words and definitions. That’s how we communicate. We cannot read your thoughts. Try not to confuse a newbie who is sincerely trying to learn. Thx. Do you have 30k hours and have never heard a pilot refer to the wing not flying as a stall? I'd argue that calling a loss/lack of lift, the wing not flying etc a "stall" is the most common nomenclature in aviation. There are only a couple of people in this thread that want to deviate from that. Why, I have no idea. Point being, understanding "the point at which the wing stops flying" is critically important. As is knowing how mass, center of gravity, velocity, thrust etc all effect it. All of those things affect angle of attack. The point at which a wing "stops flying" is a stall. That happens at a SPECIFIC angle of attack, regardless of gravity, velocity, thrust, etc. Nobody is deviating from any thing except you. Again, to your original statement, you don't want to be near that specific angle of attack when you're 20 feet off the ground, because if you exceed that specific angle of attack, the plane will quit flying. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 5:20:48 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ske714: All of those things affect angle of attack. The point at which a wing "stops flying" is a stall. That happens at a SPECIFIC angle of attack, regardless of gravity, velocity, thrust, etc. Nobody is deviating from any thing except you. Again, to your original statement, you don't want to be near that specific angle of attack when you're 20 feet off the ground, because if you exceed that specific angle of attack, the plane will quit flying. I think this is where the misunderstanding is - the angle at which a wing stops flying does not have to be an airfoil stall, which I thought was your original point, and while technically correct, it could be confusing for a low time pilot. We can certainly call a wing not flying, stalled, and that is what I would call it. However, that can happen at a variety of angles, not the just critical angle of attack as you suggesting. Center of pressure is what truly causes the loss of lift, and it is very concious of mass and center of gravity. A common example could be wheel landings vs 3 point. Completely different attitudes, but you lose lift either way. The AOA and Lift Reserve instruments I've used, use differential pressure, not angle, at the leading edge, for this reason. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 5:26:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: What stopped you? A couple of different factors. At the time I was a Ford dealership auto technician and the economic crash of 2008 hit hard. I was on flat rate and there just wasn't any decent work coming in, so my income took a tremendous hit. Then gas went up to $4 a gallon and I was stuck driving a car that got about 16 mpg driving 50 miles a day. I also had reached the end of the money I had taken out with student loans to continue with my initial CFI which I was working on and I decided that I was not going to take out any more loans due to my financial situation, and I was already paying on the loan I had. In addition to all the previous mentioned factors, as I was watching the aviation industry I saw the furloughs and layoff beginning and pretty much concluded that even if I took out more money and finished my CFI, I likely would not have been able to find a job instructing let alone anything else for a number of years. I truly wish I could have kept going, but it just wasn't in the cards time. |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 5:40:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ske714]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: I think this is where the misunderstanding is - the angle at which a wing stops flying does not have to be an airfoil stall, which I thought was your original point, and while technically correct, it could be confusing for a low time pilot. We can certainly call a wing not flying, stalled, and that is what I would call it. However, that can happen at a variety of angles, not the just critical angle of attack as you suggesting. Center of pressure is what truly causes the loss of lift, and it is very concious of mass and center of gravity. A common example could be wheel landings vs 3 point. Completely different attitudes, but you lose lift either way. The AOA and Lift Reserve instruments I've used, use differential pressure, not angle, at the leading edge, for this reason. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: Originally Posted By ske714: All of those things affect angle of attack. The point at which a wing "stops flying" is a stall. That happens at a SPECIFIC angle of attack, regardless of gravity, velocity, thrust, etc. Nobody is deviating from any thing except you. Again, to your original statement, you don't want to be near that specific angle of attack when you're 20 feet off the ground, because if you exceed that specific angle of attack, the plane will quit flying. I think this is where the misunderstanding is - the angle at which a wing stops flying does not have to be an airfoil stall, which I thought was your original point, and while technically correct, it could be confusing for a low time pilot. We can certainly call a wing not flying, stalled, and that is what I would call it. However, that can happen at a variety of angles, not the just critical angle of attack as you suggesting. Center of pressure is what truly causes the loss of lift, and it is very concious of mass and center of gravity. A common example could be wheel landings vs 3 point. Completely different attitudes, but you lose lift either way. The AOA and Lift Reserve instruments I've used, use differential pressure, not angle, at the leading edge, for this reason. By your definition, any time the wing is not producing enough lift to maintain level fligh, the plane is in a stall. That is simply wrong, and terribly confusing to anyone trying to understand what a stall actually is. ETA: A wheel landing is not done with a stall. You actually DECREASE angle of attack once main wheels are on the ground, to reduce lift until speed is reduced. That is not a stall. |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 5:51:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Duke117]
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: We can certainly call a wing not flying, stalled, and that is what I would call it. However, that can happen at a variety of angles, not the just critical angle of attack Oh FFS... GD aviation strikes again. The "critical angle of attack" is not AN angle. It is THE angle when airfow separation occurs and the wing ceases to function as designed...and no it doesn't happen at a variety of angles. It happens at the critical angle. My 35 + years flying high performance/ heavy jets confims this.. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 5:55:53 PM EDT
[#13]
My idea of a stall is when the wing is not producing lift, as in the center of pressure has gone off the leading edge.
I don't think that insufficient lift for level flight is a stall. I didn't do my primary training in the US. Is learning and practicing COP, slow flight, stalls, spins etc apart of primary training here? |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 5:56:28 PM EDT
[#14]
I just crash them and walk away.
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Posted: 4/22/2024 6:03:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Duke117]
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: My idea of a stall is when the wing is not producing lift, as in the center of pressure has gone off the leading edge. I don't think that insufficient lift for level flight is a stall. I didn't do my primary training in the US. Is learning and practicing COP, slow flight, stalls, spins etc apart of primary training here? Read my previous post #12. AOA is everything. On some jets, AOA is primary, airspeed is secondary. Leading edge devices are used to delay the critical angle for increased performance. Airspeed is the primary reference for most civilan aircraft, weight and CG factor in to the performance calculations to derive critical AOA but that is transparent to the pilot so a reference airspeed is the usable output. Everything else is for the engineering geeks to fuss over but useless operationally. |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 6:07:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: ske714]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: My idea of a stall is when the wing is not producing lift, as in the center of pressure has gone off the leading edge. I don't think that insufficient lift for level flight is a stall. I didn't do my primary training in the US. Is learning and practicing COP, slow flight, stalls, spins etc apart of primary training here? Stalls are the same all over the world. They are a specific thing, not just a word or "idea". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_ |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 6:12:56 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Duke117: Read my previous post #12. AOA is everything. On some jets, AOA is primary, airspeed is secondary. Leading edge devices are used to delay the critical angle for increased performance. Airspeed is the primary reference for most civilan aircraft, weight and CG factor in to the performance calculations to derive critical AOA but that is transparent to the pilot so a reference airspeed is the usable output. Everything else is for the engineering geeks to fuss over but useless operationally. In the aircraft I've calibrated AOA or Lift Reserve indicators they have been the preferred indication for slow flight. Very handy instrument, but on small bush planes you can develope the same "feel" for that edge. Some of the planes I have flown are too old to evem have published vx and vy references, let alone electrical systems  |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 6:18:23 PM EDT
[#18]
I’m in the neighborhood of 500 logged landings … 90% in the same type, and I can still find a way to mess one up.
My daughter will tell me “That was a great job flying. Right up until you landed.” |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 6:20:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Duke117]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: In the aircraft I've calibrated AOA or Lift Reserve indicators they have been the preferred indication for slow flight. Very handy instrument, but on small bush planes you can develope the same "feel" for that edge. Some of the planes I have flown are too old to evem have published vx and vy references, let alone electrical systems Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: Originally Posted By Duke117: Read my previous post #12. AOA is everything. On some jets, AOA is primary, airspeed is secondary. Leading edge devices are used to delay the critical angle for increased performance. Airspeed is the primary reference for most civilan aircraft, weight and CG factor in to the performance calculations to derive critical AOA but that is transparent to the pilot so a reference airspeed is the usable output. Everything else is for the engineering geeks to fuss over but useless operationally. In the aircraft I've calibrated AOA or Lift Reserve indicators they have been the preferred indication for slow flight. Very handy instrument, but on small bush planes you can develope the same "feel" for that edge. Some of the planes I have flown are too old to evem have published vx and vy references, let alone electrical systems Propeller airplanes scare me. Airspeed is an overrated value. If I have a properly calculated AOA value/ indicator, I can fly the jet safely in any regime with the A/S unreliable/inop. |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 6:25:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Duke117: Airspeed is an overrated value. As an Aeronca owner, I wholeheartedly agree. 
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USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 6:28:36 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KiloBravo: I’m in the neighborhood of 500 logged landings … 90% in the same type, and I can still find a way to mess one up. My daughter will tell me “That was a great job flying. Right up until you landed.” Wx has put a dampening on flying lately. Son went with me last week. Local airport was busy, so went over to a strip I don't fly into much. Of course wind was out of an unusual direction, so approach was completely off. Poor excuse for a poorer landing. One bounce and I started a go around. Following landings were much better. Of course, upon return to my home airport, the wind was exactly 90 degrees off the runway at 8knts. That landing actually was pretty good. He didn't complain. 
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Posted: 4/22/2024 6:36:34 PM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 4/22/2024 6:39:40 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Yep, this is the standard method. Prior to the flare, you have to shift your point of focus to the end of the runway otherwise you won't perceive the "ground rush" in your peripheral vision that is necessary to anticipate where the wheels will touch down. It sounds stupid, but remember that when you're just sitting on the ground in the airplane...that's the same picture in your peripheral vision as at the moment of touchdown. If you can calibrate what you see both out the windscreen (e.g. the relationship between the top of the cowling and the horizon in a proper flare attitude) and what you see out the side windows, that will also help you predict the right moment. If it makes you feel any better, this same skill is a challenge to pilots of all skill levels and experience, especially when transitioning to new airplanes or flying multiple different aircraft as a matter of routine. Look no further than the half-dozen airliners in the last 2-3 years that have been damaged in landing incidents tied to the training of new pilots. When you finish your PPL, you may want to think about getting training for a taildragger endorsement, as the ground perception skill is a core piece of the puzzle. I teach it as look at something at the end of the runway, your peripheral vision will show the "sink". but don't worry about it OP, I've taught a bunch of students and every single one of them has had an issue with this (myself included) and then one day it just clicks. |
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WI, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 6:54:35 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WhirlyGirl45: I just crash them and walk away. I like your style! |
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Posted: 4/22/2024 7:14:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BillofRights]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Uwohali_Agadoli: My idea of a stall is when the wing is not producing lift, as in the center of pressure has gone off the leading edge. I don't think that insufficient lift for level flight is a stall. I didn't do my primary training in the US. Is learning and practicing COP, slow flight, stalls, spins etc apart of primary training here? No, Americans don’t worry about all that happy horse-shit. We simply walk on air and float on clouds. Fwiw, your mis-communication, mis-identification and mis-defined words in this thread; are probably the result of the language barrier. I was going to ask what your primary language is, even before you told us this. FWIW, You don’t get to make up your own definitions. English is the international language of aviation. Learn the Book definitions if you want to discuss flying with other pilots. You can’t baffle us with bullshit. |
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GA, USA
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Posted: 4/22/2024 9:20:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ske714: Also, I'm sure you were told this, but on final, control your airspeed with pitch, and your altitude/sink rate with the throttle. Nooooooooooo. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 7:11:49 PM EDT
[#27]
Went out this morning for about 1 1/2 hours in 10 mph wind from every direction, used the bifocals. It IS a different sight picture. Decent landings with coaching, one was really smooth. CFI suggested dropping RPM from 1500 to 1200 crossing the numbers because we ballooned twice. Seemed to help. Almost every landing stall warning went off but only landed hard once. Got a wind gust beyond my skill level. One calm day would be nice, but CFI said learning in these weather conditions would make me a better pilot. Poorer but better.
Some of the suggestion seemed to help, thanks everybody. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 7:19:12 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fast99: Went out this morning for about 1 1/2 hours in 10 mph wind from every direction, used the bifocals. It IS a different sight picture. Decent landings with coaching, one was really smooth. CFI suggested dropping RPM from 1500 to 1200 crossing the numbers because we ballooned twice. Seemed to help. Almost every landing stall warning went off but only landed hard once. Got a wind gust beyond my skill level. One calm day would be nice, but CFI said learning in these weather conditions would make me a better pilot. Poorer but better. Some of the suggestion seemed to help, thanks everybody. Nice. I used to break it down like this: set your aim point on final (whether it’s the captains bars, numbers, etc). Crossing the threshold, cut your power in half, and shift your aim point to the end of the runway. And when you feel the ground rush coming up to meet you, aft stick smoothly to your landing attitude as the power comes to idle. Low wing into the wind to maintain centerline, rudder to keep the nose pointed straight. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 7:23:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MudEagle]
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By flaperon: Nooooooooooo. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By flaperon: Originally Posted By ske714: Also, I'm sure you were told this, but on final, control your airspeed with pitch, and your altitude/sink rate with the throttle. Nooooooooooo. It is good technique for light GA aircraft, and not a bad way to establish habit patterns for a new pilot who often drags car-driving habit patterns into learning flying that don't directly apply to aviation (like thinking power is for speed and pitch is for aimpoint). It is when people conflate this technique into a mantra that must be followed in all aircraft at all times that is problematic. I personally think teaching the control and performance concept is a better foundational technique for pilots who will go on to do instrument flying, but for people who are just going to be day/VFR weekend warriors the "airspeed with pitch" works well enough. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 4:34:58 PM EDT
[#30]
Last couple days wind calmed down enough for me to get a better feel for the plane. Did another 15 or so landings. CFI gave me the keys and said do 3 more solo. Did ok with them last one was a little bouncy because wind picked up again. He signed me off for local flights. For me the 2 things that helped the most was dropping the RPM to 1200 at the threshold and ditching the progressive lenses.
Thanks everybody! |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 4:39:12 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fast99: Last couple days wind calmed down enough for me to get a better feel for the plane. Did another 15 or so landings. CFI gave me the keys and said do 3 more solo. Did ok with them last one was a little bouncy because wind picked up again. He signed me off for local flights. For me the 2 things that helped the most was dropping the RPM to 1200 at the threshold and ditching the progressive lenses. Thanks everybody! Nice! |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 6:24:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fast99: Last couple days wind calmed down enough for me to get a better feel for the plane. Did another 15 or so landings. CFI gave me the keys and said do 3 more solo. Did ok with them last one was a little bouncy because wind picked up again. He signed me off for local flights. For me the 2 things that helped the most was dropping the RPM to 1200 at the threshold and ditching the progressive lenses. Thanks everybody! Outstanding! |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 8:56:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: MudEagle]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fast99: Last couple days wind calmed down enough for me to get a better feel for the plane. Did another 15 or so landings. CFI gave me the keys and said do 3 more solo. Did ok with them last one was a little bouncy because wind picked up again. He signed me off for local flights. For me the 2 things that helped the most was dropping the RPM to 1200 at the threshold and ditching the progressive lenses. Thanks everybody! Congratulations, great to hear. Aviation is a never-ending series of small challenges and victories like this. |
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:05:31 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fast99: Last couple days wind calmed down enough for me to get a better feel for the plane. Did another 15 or so landings. CFI gave me the keys and said do 3 more solo. Did ok with them last one was a little bouncy because wind picked up again. He signed me off for local flights. For me the 2 things that helped the most was dropping the RPM to 1200 at the threshold and ditching the progressive lenses. Thanks everybody! Congratulations! did you get your shirt cut? |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 4/27/2024 9:57:31 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fast99: Last couple days wind calmed down enough for me to get a better feel for the plane. Did another 15 or so landings. CFI gave me the keys and said do 3 more solo. Did ok with them last one was a little bouncy because wind picked up again. He signed me off for local flights. For me the 2 things that helped the most was dropping the RPM to 1200 at the threshold and ditching the progressive lenses. Thanks everybody! Congrats man.  |
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