Yeah sorry, I haven't come to those conclusions. If the Russians win the war, they WILL come out stronger. Because that means they will have overcome their adversaries and all the assistance that they received. Like the other guy said, it's not the 80's anymore, both China and Russia can outpace us in an arms race by sheer volume alone. At that matters, we didn't have the best weapons overall in WWII, but we had more than enough of them and the logistics to support them. That should be self-evident at this point.

Or biggest problem is that our weapons are TOO expensive and we cannot produce enough of them fast enough to fight a war like this, even with the Ukrainians pulling the trigger. Hopefully this will be a huge wake up call to the Pentagon. We have to go back to our WWII strategy of producing good quality weapons in excessive volume, instead of the best weapons possible in only small numbers.

The lessons learned from this war should be that we HAVE to ramp up production on effective, inexpensive weapon systems. Such as artillery, drones, and missiles. $1 Billion dollar patriot air defense systems are not going to cut it in the next war.

I guess time will tell who was right since your side is the one in control of the purse.

This is asymmetrical warfare being orchestrated against U.S. citizens by the state.
Trying to mischaracterize invaders as good guys, harmless, or neutrals is disingenuous.

Observation is the only way to develop a point. Without observation, you only have assumption.

I agree with you that there are many changes the Pentagon needs to make quickly.  I'm confident there are many people there watching and discussing what we are seeing happen in Ukraine, the recent conflict with Azerbaijan and Armenia, what's happening with Israel and its neighbors, etc.  Warfare is changing day by day right now and we will have to move fast to adapt and keep up.

But to your previous point, I am confident that any supposed victory for Russia in the current conflict will be pyrrhic at best.  The point I'm trying to make in all of this is that everybody is talking about this as if the only question that matters is whether Ukraine deserves our help or not. Yet the dirty little secret that the politicians would rather not discuss openly is that in terms of our interest, it's much more important what it does to Russia than what it does for Ukraine.  They just talk about Ukraine publicly because it has emotional appeal.

We would probably agree that there are massive problems with current fiscal policy, whether we are talking about entitlements, waste, growing bureaucratic state, etc. But I don't think our big budget problem right now is paying money to big defense contractors who employ lots of high paid Americans to make weapons to be used against one of our biggest strategic adversaries.

Broken window fallacy--that taxes spent actually is a fiscal policy

And these adversaries needing killing why?

And observation to perform analysis isn't just forming an opinion based upon reading posts, and then making a broad characterization.

I'm having a hard time believing 75% of the posters in this thread actually own any guns or actually want freedom.

This place has really turned into a socialist clown show the last couple years...

Moscow Marjorie does ring true... I hope her new nickname sticks.

Well Lloyd Austin had no problem saying it. It hurts Russia so it's good. It's a kind of cynical view that I'm not down with much anymore, at least when it comes to war.

There is no way out of this where the Ukrainians come out feeling anything but betrayed and abandoned. That's kinda shitty.

I still believe we should have either given them anything it took to win at the beginning (or before) or just should have washed our hands of it right there. But I'm not convinced at this point they could ever win it, without our direct help. And Crimea ain't worth WWIII no matter how you slice it.

Putin called our bluff, and it will probably work out for him in the end.

MTG wants Putin to conquer all of Ukraine. She doesn't want a peace treaty except one that surrenders the people of Ukraine to her boy, Vladimir.

Germany has sent more tanks to Ukraine and more air defense systems including 2 patriots and just recently a half dozen more promised batteries.

How many billions are spent on the US border and border security?

@dagoth-UR

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You're accusing folks of supporting Nancy Pelosi who say we need to focus on the problems China poses?

That’s been every war since wwII.

According to the IMF,  the forecast is that Russia's economy will grow faster than all the world's advanced economies, including the USA, this year. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68823399

Russia is not going to collapse from within, not for the foreseeable future and Ukraine does not have the resources to fight this conflict indefinitely.   Hope, is not a strategy.   Sitting around "hoping" that there will be some coup in Russia is full blown insane when Ukraine has limited resources.

This conflict is primarily an artillery war.  Artillery is accounting for the overwhelming majority of casaulties on both side.   Russia is producing three times more artillery shells than NATO combined and if the IMFs's economic forecast for Russia is correct they'll be able to keep that output up for the foreseeable future.  https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/10/politics/russia-artillery-shell-production-us-europe-ukraine/index.html

This $60 Billion isn't going to make any difference.  Where it could have made a difference was in improving our own military, which at present is under threat in three different regions now (Europe with Russia, the Middle East with Iran, and the Indo-Pacific with China).  We have 320,000,000 Americans to defend, 3.8 million square miles of territory to defend, 32 NATO allies we're obligated to defend by treaty, and multiple treaty obligations in the Pacific to honor.  Our military needs that money directly, not shared or just a percentage of it, but all of it if the USA is going to continue to pursue its current foreign policies and very aggressive forward projection. To say nothing of the incredible destabilization taking place due to the open border.  There were a recorded 70,601 deaths caused by Fetanyl overdoses in 2021 alone, a lot of those deaths were of people of military service age.  What could $60 Billion do to bring back Semiconductor production to the USA instead of relying on high end semiconductor production in Taiwan, perhaps the most vulnerable place on earth for that production to take place.  China's ship building production is 232 TIMES greater than the US's ship production.  We have ship yards that are more than 3 years behind on deliveries of ships and sub to the USA.  Lockheed Martin deliveries on the F-35 JSF, which were already behind, are being further delayed in 2024.  

Long story short, just for defense there are a lot of areas where this money would have been more effectively spent for what is now an inevitable conflict.  Ukraine is not going to remove Russia as a threat to NATO.   Ukraine definitely isn't going to remove China and Iran as threats to the US and our interests.   We've got a massive amount of responsibilities that we're not up to meeting.  Yet, here we are taking on more and more things doing everything piss poorly.  

Marginalized Marge.

Even Matt Gaetz won't support her motion:

“I think a motion to vacate right now would almost certainly turn the House over to Democrats, and that’s why I won’t support it,” said Gaetz, who led the McCarthy ouster.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/story/motion-to-vacate-mike-johnson-marjorie-taylor-greene

“She’s a total waste of time,” U.S. Sen. Thom Tillis, R-N.C., told CNN, as GOP senators stood by the House speaker’s decision to allow a vote on aid for Ukraine.

...

But since House members went home on Saturday, no other Republicans have stepped up to join Greene’s call for a GOP leadership shake-up.

“I think the timing of a motion to vacate is ill-timed,” said U.S. Rep. Andy Ogles of Tennessee, one of a number of Republicans voicing frustration about the speaker but not ready to do anything about it.

https://www.ajc.com/politics/marjorie-taylor-greenes-crusade-fails-to-dislodge-johnson-as-house-speaker/2HYXOVI5WFH3BEIGN6XHZWHYUY/

So arfcom should be a big circle jerk in which anyone who doesn’t agree with your opinions should be banned?

Yep .

Yes .

Ukraine doesn’t need the resources, they have the US taxpayers.

Imagine for a moment a criminal element that wants a piece of the pie that's the wealthy in liberal cities with liberal DAs letting people walk multiple times and there is an open border you can walk across to facilitate your dreams.  You know like Chilean gangs targeting high end homes in places like Detroit and California?   I get that there are many hardworking people in the groups coming across the border, I live in a neighborhood that was full of them up till the property values drove most out, but opening the border is the wrong way to service those people as it lets the others in unvetted.

Cold War us or us with strong leadership I would agree but not like we are currently.  

Additionally we were fighting the Cold War against a Russia that had seen its manufacturing base bombed into rubble and had lost 27million people to war.  The times in the US leading up to the Cold War were amazing for us, we were literally the only manufacturing powerhouse left in the world, we were making money hand over fist rebuilding what had recently been bombed into rubble elsewhere.  Today we have a debt to gdp ratio that is three times higher than we carried through the Cold War. We are not the same country that fought the Cold War and it wouldn't go so smoothly a second time.

Germany has tanks?

14 pages of banter to say this is why Democrats hold power and Republicans hold seats.

Correct, in storage and active duty around 300-350. They’ve sent more Tanks than the USA has.

Germany has also contributed more patriot batteries than the USA and more iris t systems.

There are several of you that are clearly on a different side than me on the issue of Ukraine funding.  I understand that people can have different opinions, but I want to point out some facts about MTG.

Here are the bills and ammendments she has authored in her time in the House: https://www.congress.gov/member/marjorie-greene/G000596?q=%7B%22sponsorship%22%3A%22sponsored%22%7D

In the 2021-22 session, she authored bills such as Protect America First, Gun Onwer Privacy Act, Second Amendment Preservation Act; but she has no similar 2nd ammendment or immigration legislation this year (there is one bill this session to name ANTIFA a terrorist organization).

In this session she seems to have focused on Ukraine with 9 ammendments to zero funding or somehow place limits on what can be provided to Ukraine.  The most telling to me is a failed ammendment to prevent DOD from sending cluster munitions to Ukraine in the Fall NDAA: https://www.congress.gov/amendment/118th-congress/house-amendment/243?s=4&r=39

Tying the hands of DOD to specifically NOT send cluster munitions is not concern about government spending, but specifically about helping Russia on the battlefield.

At this point I believe MTG is under the influence of Russia, whether she realizes it or not (it could be someone on her staff or close circle).

The balance of the majority of her legislation this year is to either impeach or set somones salary to zero (Lloyd Austin, Mayorkas, Amanda Bennett, Pete Buttigieg, Rachel Levine, Miguel Cardona).

She raised more money from California than Texas, and received significant money from Illinois and New York: https://www.opensecrets.org/members-of-congress/marjorie-taylor-greene/geography?cid=N00044701&cycle=2022  Over 90% of her funding comes from outside of her district.

Imagine being, presumably a US citizen, living in the US, but listing your “location” as Ukraine and schilling for Ukraine non stop, all while making a post about a sitting US rep trying to get other politicians to spend money on protecting the US border without wasting money on pointless proxy “wars” and calling her an agent of a foreign country.

Pretty crazy, we don’t have to imagine.  It’s right in that post.

What if I told you I don't support Ukraine funding and still thought MTG is an idiot doing idiot things?

Literally millions have already come in here illegally, but yet it's not an invasion, because reasons (for which you fail to elaborate). Big argument there, tiny tot.

Some people don't think a broken clock be like it is, but it do.



Okay. Looks like the Uke have their support. Stop whining about not enough welfare.

The state of Texas has spent 2 billion a year on OLS.

CBP and ice get 25.9 billion a year.

The border gets enough money

Congrats.
You described Detroit.

Johnson comes out against Brandon Herrera tells me all I need to know about him.  Fuck Johnson.  She's right.

You must have missed every single thread about Ukraine here.

Well 99% of Republicans are the same as Democrats.  So what's your point?

Like voting to remove McCarthy last October?

So you have psychic abilities to know what someone thinks ya say?

How about MTG and many others do not give a rat's ass what happen on the other side of the planet?
It's not our fight and they have the choice of fight, leave or die.

You're going to get smeared as a 23'er with a low post count, but these are facts and they don't paint a flattering picture.

The same thing happens all over the world, and yet we magically don't call them invasion. Probably because people who some basic reasoning skills know what words mean.  Pretty shitty argument there sweetheart.

According to whom? On-the-take illegals & those with foreign allegiances? More from the usual welfare apologists, always raising their hands, palms up.

It wasn't that long ago that those brainwashed by CNN were calling everyone "Hitler". Now we've forgotten about poor old Adolph, and replaced him with Vladimir. I look forward to the day when we're just good old Nazis again, and not commie putin puffers.

This is your argument. Okay, cupcake. I guess you've gotta play the hand you've got.

Also, who is "we"? You & the Crapper in Chief? You 2 don't call illegal foreign crossing on a mass scale an invasion? Okay. So what? I don't owe either of you or your perceptions any credence. The Russian incursion into Ukraine has been called an invasion, & the numbers are less then the number of illegals streaming in here. America has very specific federal laws describing what constitutes illegal entry, & the potential financial ruination & sociopolitical conflict that poses is most definitely invasion-level in its impact. But then, perhaps you cheer that potential on.

Holy shit.

Where have I cheered illegal immigration? Guess what what I haven't. Try keeping to the topic, and avoid making shit up. I know it's hard.

You are ignoring the difference between Russia's invasion and illegal migration, ie one is state sponsored and the other is not.

The we I'm referring to are people who don't emotional screech invasion and have some semblance of rationality.

Interesting.   I wonder if those 2A bills had any chance of passage or were just pandering.  

It is also interesting that she is receiving 90% percent of her funding from outside her district.  Wonder where it's coming from... the one place I know it's not, is trump b/c he gives nothing to support our party or our candidates.  

MTG cares more about America than about the never-ending European turf wars.  We are 34 Trillion dollars in debt and our national borders are a sieve!
Germany can produce military equipment, but they don't have the Military to use it.
To paraphrase Moe Greene:  "The Krauts ain't got that kinda muscle any more."  If Europe doesn't give a shit, why should we?
Russia is being supported by China and Iran.  China and Iran have been supported by the USA since the 1970s.  Where does this end, with a bankrupt America that is unable to borrow any more money?  That day is coming.

The combined might of NATO would easily crush Russia in a war of production. US & NATO is close to 75% of the world's total economy.

Problem is there is a whole lot of pearl clutching in Europe, instead of there being a whole lot of grabbing a shovel and getting to fucking work. They need to get their shit together NOW.

Oh, aren't you the the better man in your own mind.

Here's little old me's take: An invasion involves foreigners interloping into foreign land in violation of that land's laws, no qualifiers necessary. Nefarious purposes only make it worse. Yeah, I'm equating them both as being invasions, because that's what they are. The difference is, I don't try to argue that we should suck off other countries for funding to deal with it. It's our problem, & WE should be prioritizing & handling it. Same should apply to other countries. Got problems? Deal with them, & without screeching for welfare from abroad. Not all invasions are military in nature, but they all have consequences. This invasion will have lasting consequences. Look for its impacts in politics, law, social culture, economics, to name a few.

Or just write it off as a nothingburger, like most self-absorbed sportsball & sitcom entertained idiots across the country. Nothing to see here, or anywhere.