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CA, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 1:22:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: TomMcC]
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ThreadKiller: How do you know Thor isn't real? Or Zeus? Or Shiva? Same way... While I cannot prove without a doubt that Zeus is not real, the obvious answer is there isn't any good reason to believe in Zeus anymore. Would you agree? The world is not some mystical place where natural phenomenon aren't understood anymore. Same can be said about the ancient religions from the Middle East. Made up by men who knew next to nothing about the Universe or the world they lived in. Perhaps there is some wisdom in what they wrote, but knowledge? Not much. And just because a billion people believe something, doesn't make it true. Lots of other examples of that. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 1:35:09 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TomMcC: Ok, then I will ask...have you seen everything that can be seen? And can something exist that we can't see? Sure. I don't believe mankind has knowledge of everything in the universe. Clearly we don't. And I wouldn't ever make such an arrogant claim. Something like Dark Matter for example, cannot be observed, at least yet. But we believe it exists because only something like it can explain the mass of distant objects in space. When it comes to religion, I can explain some of my thought processes that have led me to my conclusions. Definitely not trying to offend anyone here, these are questions I've asked myself so you may better understand how someone may become an atheist. 1.) If there was a creator, why would it create such a large universe for just us? 2.) Why would it not make it's existence unmistakenly known to all? Why the need for faith? 3.) If a creator was inherently good and cared for us, why would it let us languish on earth and allow so many innocent children to suffer all over the world? 4.) What happens to those who never heard of the creator through no fault of their own? 5.) What is the purpose of allowing bad people to be saved, while non-believers who led good lives are damned? Considering these things, I have come to the conclusion that if there is a creator, then it clearly does not care about us nor would it care if we believed in it. So why bother myself worrying about it one way or the other? And sure I know Religious folks ask themselves these questions and some have their own answers, but I have no found any of them to be particularly convincing in light of what I can see. |
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VA, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 1:35:51 AM EDT
[#3]
I think I’m technically agnostic, not an atheist. I don’t know if there’s a god or not, and I don’t really care. I just try to live my life well and my ultimate goal every day is to leave the world better off than it was when I woke up through my actions.
I grew up catholic so I do have that background, but I refuse to participate in that organization for reasons that should be obvious. Kind of hypocritical to talk shit about Epstein and then drop $10 in the collection plate. Anyway, OP, if you’re referring to your own consciousness as “brain fizz” it doesn’t really surprise me that you’re appealing to a deity to give your life meaning and to feel superior to others. I can’t even imagine valuing my own ability to think so little. Maybe have a whopper. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 1:37:53 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TomMcC: Ok, then I will ask...have you seen everything that can be seen? And can something exist that we can't see? - No and neither have you. Should we generally go about our lives assuming everything exists until we have seen that it doesn't? You admit we will never see everything that exists. I think life would be rather difficult if we operated that way. If you want to use that argument, then why not believe in 2 gods? Why not believe in an infinite number of gods? And can something exist that we can't see? - I suppose something could exist that we can't see or haven't seen yet. However this begs the first question. Generally we might also know something is there that we can't see, but see the effects of. We can't really "see" black holes, but we can observe their effects in the universe. You and I can look at pictures from satellites. We might disagree what caused them, but you and I can see something is going on. Can you demonstrate God's effects on earth? |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 1:39:51 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TomMcC: Answering a question with a question I see. How do you know it isn't a mystical place? And yes, I think I could give a reasonable answer to your questions about Zeus or Thor. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 1:39:58 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TomMcC: Answering a question with a question I see. How do you know it isn't a mystical place? And yes, I think I could give a reasonable answer to your questions about Zeus or Thor. Well I mean, a thousand years of scientific discovery has answered much of what we didn't know about the world. Physics, chemistry, biology, geology, astronomy, medicine, and countless other advances have pretty much taken the mystery out of a lot of it. I am interested in hearing what you have to say about Thor though. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 1:47:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Kingdead]
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ThreadKiller: Well I mean, a thousand years of scientific discovery has answered much of what we didn't know about the world. Physics, chemistry, biology, geology, astronomy, medicine, and countless other advances have pretty much taken the mystery out of a lot of it. I am interested in hearing what you have to say about Thor though. In 3000 years from then, which would be more likely to exist? The physics, chemistry, and other science books (albeit with different names for the scientific principles since new people would be rediscovering the principles) or The Bible, with Old and New Testament? Do you think man would rediscover the scientific principles based on daily observation, or would man be more likely to recreate the story of Moses and the flood, Jesus and the Immaculate Conception, or the story of God removing a rib from Adam to make Eve? |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 1:55:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ThreadKiller]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kingdead: Not that I suggest this happen, but let's think about a scenario where all the books and computers were destroyed by nuclear warfare and the human population was reduced by 95%. The remaining 5% lived in land fertile enough and untouched by nuclear warfare such that the human race could survive and slowly repopulate the world. In 3000 years from then, which would be more likely to exist? The physics, chemistry, and other science books (albeit with different names for the scientific principles since new people would be rediscovering the principles) or The Bible, with Old and New Testament? Do you think man would rediscover the scientific principles based on daily observation, or would man be more likely to recreate the story of Moses and the flood, Jesus and the Immaculate Conception, or the story of God removing a rib from Adam to make Eve? Well it would be like the movie Beneath the Planet of the Apes of course! There would be underground cults of mutants that worshipped unexploded ICBMs. Or maybe like the Book of Eli, where road warriors are hunting for Bibles to regain control of the masses. But in all seriousness, yeah it would take a LONG time to get back to where we are today. We might not ever get back honestly. Most of significant advances have come from relatively few geniuses who figured it out. Most people don't accomplish much in their lives, me being one of them. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 1:56:49 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kingdead: Not that I suggest this happen, but let's think about a scenario where all the books and computers were destroyed by nuclear warfare and the human population was reduced by 95%. The remaining 5% lived in land fertile enough and untouched by nuclear warfare such that the human race could survive and slowly repopulate the world. In 3000 years from then, which would be more likely to exist? The physics, chemistry, and other science books (albeit with different names for the scientific principles since new people would be rediscovering the principles) or The Bible, with Old and New Testament? Do you think man would rediscover the scientific principles based on daily observation, or would man be more likely to recreate the story of Moses and the flood, Jesus and the Immaculate Conception, or the story of God removing a rib from Adam to make Eve? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kingdead: Originally Posted By ThreadKiller: Well I mean, a thousand years of scientific discovery has answered much of what we didn't know about the world. Physics, chemistry, biology, geology, astronomy, medicine, and countless other advances have pretty much taken the mystery out of a lot of it. I am interested in hearing what you have to say about Thor though. In 3000 years from then, which would be more likely to exist? The physics, chemistry, and other science books (albeit with different names for the scientific principles since new people would be rediscovering the principles) or The Bible, with Old and New Testament? Do you think man would rediscover the scientific principles based on daily observation, or would man be more likely to recreate the story of Moses and the flood, Jesus and the Immaculate Conception, or the story of God removing a rib from Adam to make Eve? Would that 5% be from one of the poorest, underdeveloped, uneducated regions of the world that tend to be the most religious, or somewhere uh, not like that? |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 1:58:10 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ThreadKiller: Well it would be like the move Beneath the Planet of the Apes of course! There would be underground cults of mutants that worshipped unexploded ICBMs. Or maybe like the Book of Eli, where road warriors are hunting for Bibles to regain control of the masses. But in all seriousness, yeah it would take a LONG time to get back to where we are today. We might not ever get back honestly. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 2:00:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: ThreadKiller]
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kingdead: I guess one is based on repeated observations and smart enough people to see those observations and come up with theories. The other is based on written or oral story telling. If the story tellers don't exist, I think the story dies. As long as there are physical events and people to observe those events, there is a chance they recreate the knowledge. Yeah I definitely get your point, science is REAL. It's observable and repeatable. I am just not sure how likely it is for MANKIND to repeat everything we have accomplished. Hard to know what was just dumb luck or chance and what was inevitable. I guess things like weapons, bow and arrow, swords, castles/mound defenses, for sure would come back. Since those things existed just about everywhere. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 2:01:55 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cedjunior: Would that 5% be from one of the poorest, underdeveloped, uneducated regions of the world that tend to be the most religious, or somewhere uh, not like that? |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 2:16:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Kingdead]
[#13]
I should have looked at the creator of this thread. I really don't want to get in fights with religious people, but sometimes I get sucked into it. I don't find OP to be an honest poster based on his past threads and I think they do more harm to the site than not. I also don't help by engaging. I'll stop posting in this thread. I do like discussions about religion, God, etc... I was raised religious most of my whole life, but not finding sufficient evidence beyond a personal experience or faith, I cannot support those ideas anymore.
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AS, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 2:31:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: CoconutLaCroix]
[#14]
A lot of people take for granted how fortunate they are to have grown up in a society that was anchored to transcendent "sky daddy" Christian values. Would suck to be drinking shit water from the Ganges, watching your mother get her head lopped off and rolled down a pyramid, or raped in pre-Christian Rome because you weren't a freeborn with personal rights.
Fortunately, sky daddy is dead now so you can live your life and in a world of your own truth. Nobody can seriously tell you why you ought to do anything, so do what you want. |
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WA, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 4:43:42 AM EDT
[#15]
Originally Posted By thepantydropper: If logic is merely atoms colliding inside of your brain (brain fizz), how can you trust that random collision of atoms is geared at any sort of truth? It would seem that as an Atheist, you would be unable to trust your own thoughts. I’ve used the google but found no good answer to this question. What say the Atheists here? luckily, we know that having thoughts are not random atoms colliding. in fact, the atoms are never colliding, especially for thoughts. nerve impulses are actually one of the better understood mechanisms, and simply it's Na atoms being pumped in a given direction. when and where this happens is well known too, we know that there are minimum threshold of stimuli to make these reactions occur. in fact, not just atheists, but human memory has been studied extensively. humans have 'constructive' memory. memories don't play like a video and then get rewatched. instead, human memories are kind of like a game of clue, where humans might remember a few key features of a movie, and then assemble it based on what they think would be fun. this is why video evidence always trumps eye witness testimony, you see incredible errors in human reconstruction. there are a few people who do have the ability to view memory like a video - we call it 'photographic memory'. even photographic memory isn't perfect and has varying degrees. a lot of basic skills are assumed in society. like how to count, the alphabet, etc. as a result, "brain fizz" is not a currently a scientifically accepted methodology. most search results by most search engines will be based on classic scientific methods. like basic math, biology, etc. |
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USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 5:09:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: fatalerror113]
[#16]
Probably already covered but,
"Collisions" of particles are not entirely random, they follow physical laws, and happen in a statistically predictable way (though they do have random components to their behavior). All of science basically depends on this fact. Scientists agree on this, theist or atheist alike. Truth, is basically anything that is consistent with things as they actually happen or exist in the universe. Thus "particles" reacting in a repeatable way when exposed to a certain set of conditions, is basically what "truth" is. Think of it this way. A pocket calculator is entirely atoms "colliding" as you say. I don't think anyone with any reasonable sense would conclude that it has any intelligence, let alone a soul, or connection with god. That said, I trust it more to give me a correct answer to the question: "the square root of 836,346,928 = ?" than I would a random human being unaided by a calculator, regardless of how religious (or not religious) they claim to be. ETA::Or, if you are asking if I know how any of the above is true, what you are really getting at is not theism or atheism, but actually, solipsism. Which in my opinion is a fucked up way to live life beyond academic exercises. 
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Posted: 4/23/2024 6:31:00 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TomMcC: I'll just ask a simple question of any atheist that feels he might want to answer...how do you know there is no God? How about this for an answer…I simply dont care and see no reason to care… So how can a Christian not believe in true random (or whatever stupid shit the OP is spouting) ? |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 6:47:50 AM EDT
[#18]
I logically don't believe in gods or religions in general.
If I posted a question about X religion I would get a ban. Hmmm |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 2:31:29 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TomMcC: I'll just ask a simple question of any atheist that feels he might want to answer...how do you know there is no God? |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 3:26:08 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kingdead: So we allow trolls like this (don't forget about the "my atheist friend got mugged" thread), but then ban thorazine? I love how some of you stick up for Thorazine. That dude is one of the biggest douche bags that was ever on here. Next to me of course…… |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 3:33:59 PM EDT
[#21]
The question of "knowing" still hasn't been answered. We've postulated a moral distaste for the Christian God, a willingness to believe on the basis of some sort of evidence, and a "not caring". Yet no one has articulated how they actually know there is no God. That's ok.
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Posted: 4/23/2024 4:41:05 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TomMcC: The question of "knowing" still hasn't been answered. We've postulated a moral distaste for the Christian God, a willingness to believe on the basis of some sort of evidence, and a "not caring". Yet no one has articulated how they actually know there is no God. That's ok. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 4:45:25 PM EDT
[#23]
Originally Posted By thepantydropper: ...It would seem that as an Atheist, you would be unable to trust your own thoughts... Not seeing the connection. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 4:50:20 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rodent: Do you KNOW there are gods, or do you BELIEVE there are gods? |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 4:57:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Kraquine]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CoconutLaCroix: A lot of people take for granted how fortunate they are to have grown up in a society that was anchored to transcendent "sky daddy" Christian values. Would suck to be drinking shit water from the Ganges, watching your mother get her head lopped off and rolled down a pyramid, or raped in pre-Christian Rome because you weren't a freeborn with personal rights. It sucked also for African slave women to be raped on southern plantations by their masters who practiced Christian values. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 5:05:16 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TomMcC: The question still stands. But I will say this about knowledge...knowledge is justified true belief. Can I justify my beliefs? I think so. Can you justify your belief in atheism? I'll make it easier, would you have to be omniscient and omnipresent to say that you know there is not a God? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TomMcC: Originally Posted By Rodent: Do you KNOW there are gods, or do you BELIEVE there are gods? In any case: what would it take to make you say that you know there are no unicorns, or sasquatches, or mermaids? See how that works? I don't believe there are any gods, but if someone shows me credible evidence I'll likely change my mind. |
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NY, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 5:06:41 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TomMcC: The question of "knowing" still hasn't been answered. We've postulated a moral distaste for the Christian God, a willingness to believe on the basis of some sort of evidence, and a "not caring". Yet no one has articulated how they actually know there is no God. That's ok. We haven't established that it's a meaningful question. It's widely accepted that 'knowing' any negative is impossible. The common definition of atheism is not believing. It isn't conviction there is no god except for the projective strawman 'argument' from the faithful. I'm confident that all claims that god exists are invalid so 'agnostic' seems wishy-washy. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 5:27:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3BP]
[#28]
Some of the most religious people I know are the biggest hypocrites that I know.
Live life however they want, drink to excess, cheat, lie, steal, etc. But they says their prayers, throw money in the basket on Sunday, and dont eat meat for a few fridays, and think everything is great. Its a crutch in my opinion. Dont even get me started on the corruption, and how a blind eye is turned on it. Because “god” and “church”….. You believe what you want and I will believe what I want. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 5:33:08 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By kzin: We haven't established that it's a meaningful question. It's widely accepted that 'knowing' any negative is impossible. The common definition of atheism is not believing. It isn't conviction there is no god except for the projective strawman 'argument' from the faithful. I'm confident that all claims that god exists are invalid so 'agnostic' seems wishy-washy. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 5:36:18 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Rodent: Where did you come up with that definition of "knowledge"? In any case: what would it take to make you say that you know there are no unicorns, or sasquatches, or mermaids? See how that works? I don't believe there are any gods, but if someone shows me credible evidence I'll likely change my mind. As for me trying to prove to you that God exists, I never said I would. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 6:58:22 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TomMcC: The question of "knowing" still hasn't been answered. We've postulated a moral distaste for the Christian God, a willingness to believe on the basis of some sort of evidence, and a "not caring". Yet no one has articulated how they actually know there is no God. That's ok. Knowing there is no God is not the standard required to be an atheist. It's not believing in the existence of any God or Gods. Let's just say I am confident that none of the Gods or Deities that humans have worshipped throughout history, are actually real. Because there is zero evidence of their existence. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 7:06:07 PM EDT
[#32]
I don’t remember anything before birth… and don’t think I’ll feel anything after death. I‘ve unfortunately witnessed people go through terrible emotional pain and I have no faith.
That being said(not a doom post) I see how the world is with religion and am thankful it is present. Whatever it takes for people to act accordingly in hopes of a reward in the afterlife. |
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CA, USA
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Posted: 4/23/2024 7:23:39 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ThreadKiller: Knowing there is no God is not the standard required to be an atheist. It's not believing in the existence of any God or Gods. Let's just say I am confident that none of the Gods or Deities that humans have worshipped throughout history, are actually real. Because there is zero evidence of their existence. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 7:41:03 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TomMcC: I set no standard, I merely asked a question. If you don't want to or can not answer, that's ok. Sorry I thought I did answer it as best I could. I "know" there isn't a God because there is no evidence of their existence. To the contrary, religious teachings often reflect a lack of understanding on how the world came to be. This goes for all Gods and religions, I certainly don't pick on Christianity and I have no axe to grind. Much of what the Bible says about creation has been shown to be demonstrably false, or at best some sort of vague metaphor. The Earth is very old, the Universe is much older than that. Humans did not just pop into existence one day. All life on Earth is connected by a billion years of evolution. And there is a mountain of evidence to suggest all of this. For the God of Judea? Well, we have a book. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 8:38:35 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TomMcC: The question of "knowing" still hasn't been answered. We've postulated a moral distaste for the Christian God, a willingness to believe on the basis of some sort of evidence, and a "not caring". Yet no one has articulated how they actually know there is no God. That's ok. |
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Posted: 4/23/2024 8:44:50 PM EDT
[#36]
All that shit bouncing around in muh head proves God is real mang.
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Posted: 4/24/2024 8:06:13 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TomMcC: If it's not a meaningful question to you, then I expect no answer. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 2:02:26 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By thepantydropper: No, I don’t believe God created my thoughts. I believe God is the designer. Therefore, he created the DNA instruction set that created me in the womb. In my worldview, I can make sense of logic and truth. In atheism you cannot, as far as I can tell. Still waiting for someone here to make a compelling argument. This is your problem. You believe in a designer that created the DNA instruction set that created "a me" in the womb. An atheist/agnostic believes in that same DNA instruction set (therefore validating his logic) but simply makes no assumption regarding a designer or creator. You don't have any data to support and confirm your belief instead relying completely on faith. To an atheist/agnostic the origin of that DNA instruction set remains an unsolvable mystery which in no way invalidates the existence of that DNA instruction set. Considering that the DNA instruction set is a measurable observation, and therefore exists, makes the designer/creator irrelevant with regards to it's existence. It's like the game of baseball. We can observe, study and record baseball games without knowing anything at all about it's inventor. You are like the progressive liberal who believes himself superior to non-progressive liberals because of your beliefs. Sorry but you are not superior. Your lack of self-awareness regarding what you know and don't know makes you a classic example for the Dunning-Kruger effect... |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 11:54:59 AM EDT
[#39]
Did I kill the thread? Is thepantyDropper speechless?
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