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WA, USA
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Posted: 4/24/2024 5:54:48 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By junker46: I don't see how anyone, like Buffalo Airways, don't switch to feeder airline turboprops that have been/or can be converted to freight use. And not that shit show old Electra, more modern aircraft like ATRs and Dash 8s. Fucking old ass tail dragging DC-3 and Commandos: hard to load, limited parts, AVGAS sucking, difficult to start in cold, etc. A used ATR or Dash 8 with enough usable airframe hours is still going to be a couple million a pop plus cargo conversion cost . Buffalo I think paid less than a mil ea for the Electra's plus a shit load of spare parts. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 7:00:49 AM EDT
[#2]
These airframes do have greatly reduced max takeoff weights and other limitations by the FAA these days. They take into account the age and they are still profitable. Turbo prop planes just aren’t feasible for the prices of used ones. The air tractors however are a great stop-gap for the fuel runs, as a C-46 is limited to 2,000 gallons anymore but an Air Tractor can haul 1000 gallons with just one pilot and one engine burning. Everts has a few now.
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VI, USA
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Posted: 4/24/2024 7:01:02 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By tangeant: A used ATR or Dash 8 with enough usable airframe hours is still going to be a couple million a pop plus cargo conversion cost . Buffalo I think paid less than a mil ea for the Electra's plus a shit load of spare parts. Having worked on DASH 8's back in the 2000 time period those planes had 30-40k airframe hours and the airline flew them for several more years. They up graded to RJ's and those planes got scattered to the winds. I'm sure they won't be flying them for 80 years. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 7:21:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: phatmax]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sierra5: Engine blew and it inverted into the ground. https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1cbmlc3/moment_an_engine_explodes_on_doomed_dc4_flight/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Goddamn. That was big. I would venture that big an explosion damaged the controls an wing to cause and uncommanded bank. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 7:22:26 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By alaskan_9974: That was quick. Something was happening prior since they already declared before this happened, engine must’ve taken out control cables when it went. It did seem to have more than typical exhaust flames just prior to explosion. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 9:23:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: R2point0]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Atropian_Defector: ... The air tractors however are a great stop-gap for the fuel runs, as a C-46 is limited to 2,000 gallons anymore but an Air Tractor can haul 1000 gallons with just one pilot and one engine burning. Everts has a few now. And they should have gone with the military version of the AirTractor for foreign military sales for drug interdiction. Greater load carrying capacity, more rugged. But they didn't want a tail dragger. Cropdust this! |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 9:53:26 AM EDT
[#7]
Damn, that is horrible. RIP to the crew.
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Posted: 4/24/2024 10:52:35 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R2point0: I thought the largest AirTractor was 800 gallons. I dealt with AT frequently from the financing side, but that was a few years ago. And they should have gone with the military version of the AirTractor for foreign military sales for drug interdiction. Greater load carrying capacity, more rugged. But they didn't want a tail dragger. Cropdust this! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R2point0: Originally Posted By Atropian_Defector: ... The air tractors however are a great stop-gap for the fuel runs, as a C-46 is limited to 2,000 gallons anymore but an Air Tractor can haul 1000 gallons with just one pilot and one engine burning. Everts has a few now. And they should have gone with the military version of the AirTractor for foreign military sales for drug interdiction. Greater load carrying capacity, more rugged. But they didn't want a tail dragger. Cropdust this! |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 11:04:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Atropian_Defector]
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By akcaribouhunter: Five hundred to eight hundred gals by the info I can find. Fuel being lighter than water, maybe that gets closer to the thousand mark unless it’s by volume only. Either way, 800 gallons in a single seater turbine is no joke. The Everts dispatcher who was bragging on them at the bar was likely embelishing. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 11:09:53 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DKUltra: Solid first post Fuck it, I got a cool new background out of it. YMMV.  |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 11:12:58 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Atropian_Defector: Fuel being lighter than water, maybe that gets closer to the thousand mark unless it's by volume only. Either way, 800 gallons in a single seater turbine is no joke. The Everts dispatcher who was bragging on them at the bar was likely embelishing. Maybe the guy at the bar was including the operating fuel tanks in that number. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 11:22:22 AM EDT
[#12]
That sucks for the loss of the historic aircraft. It sucks even more for the loss of the pilots. RIP airmen.
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Posted: 4/24/2024 11:24:11 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Atropian_Defector: Fuel being lighter than water, maybe that gets closer to the thousand mark unless it's by volume only. Either way, 800 gallons in a single seater turbine is no joke. The Everts dispatcher who was bragging on them at the bar was likely embelishing. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Atropian_Defector: Originally Posted By akcaribouhunter: Five hundred to eight hundred gals by the info I can find. Fuel being lighter than water, maybe that gets closer to the thousand mark unless it's by volume only. Either way, 800 gallons in a single seater turbine is no joke. The Everts dispatcher who was bragging on them at the bar was likely embelishing. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 11:43:23 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By junker46: Okay, so there are no commercially viable rough/short field tubroprop freighters in the world, and the WW2 reciprocals will forever fly those routes. Let me make a note of that. Correct. Same reason we still have a10, b52, blackhawks, and all manner of antique GA airplanes. Replacements with vastly superior flight capabilities could easily be designed, but it is economically infeasible given the red tape, bureaucracy, cost, and risk aversion of modern engineering. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 5:12:34 PM EDT
[#15]
 N3054V DC-4 Alaska Crash 23 April, 2024 |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 5:19:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: realwar]
[#16]
N3054V ATC and ARFF Audio
 Douglas DC-4 Down In Fairbanks Alaska | N3054V ATC and ARFF Audio  Piston Pounders Alaska! Flying the Brooks Fuel Douglas DC-4 Fairbanks Alaska based Brooks Fuel operated fabulous DC-4 piston pounders on Alaska cargo re supply flights. Videographer Chris Mak filmed a typical re supply flight between Fairbanks and Tanana Ralph M Calhoun Memorial Airport with fuel and empty back to Fairbanks in 2007. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 5:19:30 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Sierra5: Engine blew and it inverted into the ground. https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/1cbmlc3/moment_an_engine_explodes_on_doomed_dc4_flight/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Oh that is awful to watch! RIP crew
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Posted: 4/24/2024 5:31:16 PM EDT
[#18]
 
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Posted: 4/24/2024 5:41:42 PM EDT
[#19]
That was a huge explosion. For scale the flame was as tall as the rear vertical stabilizer and extended out the entire wing.
 Attached File Attached File |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 6:10:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: realwar]
[#20]
This shows a google earth overlay for a better visual of the flight path.
 Douglas DC-4 Plane CRASHES into river near Fairbanks, AK (2 DEAD) https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/386882 |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 6:52:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Cascade-Dude]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R2point0: Sure it's a DC-4? According to Wikipedia there are only a few still flying, none of which are in Alaska. Whatever the bird, I hope the crew is ok. ETA: I stand corrected. Looks like a -4 to me. The -4 and -6 are virtually indistinguishable except for the length of the fuselage behind the wrong root. This looks like a shorter -4 fuselage. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/24/2024 7:28:23 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Morgan321: Correct. Same reason we still have a10, b52, blackhawks, and all manner of antique GA airplanes. Replacements with vastly superior flight capabilities could easily be designed, but it is economically infeasible given the red tape, bureaucracy, cost, and risk aversion of modern engineering. That's almost laughable. Aircraft operated on a shoe string - "hey, Jim-Bob, go over yonder and see if'n you can find some old o-rings on the wingless plane yonder"- is quite remotely different than sourcing new or FAA approved used/overhauled parts when the insurance premiums are higher. I'm willing to bet that material/maintenance failure far exceeds pilot/operator error when accidents happen. Also willing to bet that if the certs for these junkheaps started getting pulled, like when the firebombers were, you'd see an adaption of economics: better facilities being built, market of older turboprops opens up, or maybe that community of 20 people really doesn't warrant $25 a gallon of government-sponsored fuel to continue to live 'the old ways'. I can see some of these aircraft uniquely suited to fly some of those missions, but they won't last forever, then what? And for the USAF aircraft you listed: enormous amounts of money is spent to keep them flying. Of course something better could have been developed, but the mil likes the new shiny toys and push to keep crap in service just to bolster that point, until it's unfeasible to build any replacements. The BUFF would have been retired in the 70's or 80's had a suitable replacement come along. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 7:30:38 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By junker46: Also willing to bet that if the certs for these junkheaps started getting pulled And why would that occur? Because of a single incident that has an as-yet undetermined cause? Big pistons have been flying this stuff for *decades*, and they're not falling out of the sky regularly...or even often. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 7:33:47 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cavedog: From the way it went over immediately my guess is they already had a problem with the other engine on that side, and were pushing the left outboard hard. It grenaded and they were screwed. That's not how you operate 4-engine big radials with a single engine failure on takeoff or departure. Takeoff power and climb power are perfectly capable of providing an airspeed sufficient for maintaining directional control, and they can be maintained for quite a long period of time. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 7:40:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MudEagle]
[#25]
deleted
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Posted: 4/24/2024 7:46:35 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: And why would that occur? Because of a single incident that has an as-yet undetermined cause? Big pistons have been flying this stuff for *decades*, and they're not falling out of the sky regularly...or even often. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Originally Posted By junker46: Also willing to bet that if the certs for these junkheaps started getting pulled And why would that occur? Because of a single incident that has an as-yet undetermined cause? Big pistons have been flying this stuff for *decades*, and they're not falling out of the sky regularly...or even often. @mudeagle Don't forget to mention there are standards, specifications, ADs, signoffs, etc. Outside of ferry permits, true airborne "junkheaps" are exceptionally rare and usually the result of rampant and intentional rule breaking. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 7:52:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: realwar]
[#27]
Imagine the horror with an engine catching on fire while carrying a full load of fuel bladders in that old plane.
 Attached File |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/24/2024 9:32:17 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: And why would that occur? Because of a single incident that has an as-yet undetermined cause? Big pistons have been flying this stuff for *decades*, and they're not falling out of the sky regularly...or even often. I have a soft spot for radials too. I'd like to have the bucks to own (and operate) something like a T-28, or with a bigger budget, a C-119 like my father flew, or the worlds only flying Globemaster. But not to acknowledge that modern turboprops make a more reliable and long-term profitable solution is ludicrous. When was the last P&W radial built? Late 1950s? The mass termination of contracts that flew firefighting WW2 aircraft because of reliability. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 9:49:34 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By junker46: That's almost laughable. Aircraft operated on a shoe string - "hey, Jim-Bob, go over yonder and see if'n you can find some old o-rings on the wingless plane yonder"- is quite remotely different than sourcing new or FAA approved used/overhauled parts when the insurance premiums are higher. I'm willing to bet that material/maintenance failure far exceeds pilot/operator error when accidents happen. Also willing to bet that if the certs for these junkheaps started getting pulled, like when the firebombers were, you'd see an adaption of economics: better facilities being built, market of older turboprops opens up, or maybe that community of 20 people really doesn't warrant $25 a gallon of government-sponsored fuel to continue to live 'the old ways'. I can see some of these aircraft uniquely suited to fly some of those missions, but they won't last forever, then what? And for the USAF aircraft you listed: enormous amounts of money is spent to keep them flying. Of course something better could have been developed, but the mil likes the new shiny toys and push to keep crap in service just to bolster that point, until it's unfeasible to build any replacements. The BUFF would have been retired in the 70's or 80's had a suitable replacement come along. Hell Alaska cancels flights often to the Bush for mechanical problems Their freighters are always breaking down. Not all turbine engine planes can land at the Bush airports. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 9:51:11 PM EDT
[#30]
News said a fire was reported right after take-off.
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Posted: 4/24/2024 11:33:03 PM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 4/24/2024 11:36:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cavedog]
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: That's not how you operate 4-engine big radials with a single engine failure on takeoff or departure. Takeoff power and climb power are perfectly capable of providing an airspeed sufficient for maintaining directional control, and they can be maintained for quite a long period of time. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Originally Posted By cavedog: From the way it went over immediately my guess is they already had a problem with the other engine on that side, and were pushing the left outboard hard. It grenaded and they were screwed. That's not how you operate 4-engine big radials with a single engine failure on takeoff or departure. Takeoff power and climb power are perfectly capable of providing an airspeed sufficient for maintaining directional control, and they can be maintained for quite a long period of time. Thanks for that information. |
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Posted: 4/24/2024 11:43:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: realwar]
[#33]
His last transmission was "Tell them I love them ma'am, tell them I love them."
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Posted: 4/25/2024 12:57:14 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By realwar: His last transmission was "Tell them I love them ma'am, tell them I love them." Yeah, I heard that too. Once you hear it it’s plain as day… RIP to the crew, we’re all out here just trying to do a job |
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USA
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Posted: 4/25/2024 1:22:10 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By realwar: https://cdn.jetphotos.com/full/5/2935864_1688407807.jpg OK, I'm pretty sure that's a DC-4 |
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USA
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Posted: 4/25/2024 1:22:59 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Greymuzzle: Yeah, I heard that too. Once you hear it it’s plain as day… RIP to the crew, we’re all out here just trying to do a job Ugh... |
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Posted: 4/25/2024 1:26:22 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By akcaribouhunter: Most of the time they are hauling diesel/heating oil. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By akcaribouhunter: Originally Posted By Atropian_Defector: Originally Posted By akcaribouhunter: Five hundred to eight hundred gals by the info I can find. Fuel being lighter than water, maybe that gets closer to the thousand mark unless it's by volume only. Either way, 800 gallons in a single seater turbine is no joke. The Everts dispatcher who was bragging on them at the bar was likely embelishing. The plane was headed to Kobuk with 1,200 gallons of aviation fuel on board in order to fly the plane and 3,200 gallons of #1 diesel home heating fuel on as cargo. |
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Posted: 4/25/2024 1:30:14 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By junker46: I have a soft spot for radials too. I'd like to have the bucks to own (and operate) something like a T-28, or with a bigger budget, a C-119 like my father flew, or the worlds only flying Globemaster. But not to acknowledge that modern turboprops make a more reliable and long-term profitable solution is ludicrous. When was the last P&W radial built? Late 1950s? The mass termination of contracts that flew firefighting WW2 aircraft because of reliability. It has nothing to do with a "soft spot", and your statements have had nothing to do with the airplanes being a "long-term profitable solution." They're machines, and they're operating as designed for a business whose purpose is to generate a profit. When they stop doing that, the businesses will stop using them. Again, we're not planting big radials into the dirt on a basis that is mathematically any different than "modern turboprops". |
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Posted: 4/25/2024 1:49:14 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bushleaguepilot: OK, I'm pretty sure that's a DC-4 Yea, that's the plane that went down. Was trying to find a good actual pic of it. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 4/25/2024 2:53:03 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By realwar: His last transmission was "Tell them I love them ma'am, tell them I love them." That's fucking crazy. I'm glad he was able to pass on his last message. |
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Posted: 4/25/2024 3:06:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: realwar]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By junker46: That's fucking crazy. I'm glad he was able to pass on his last message. You can hear him say it at (1:11)  Alaska DC-4 CRASH | ATC recording (2 FATALITIES) |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 4/25/2024 3:54:27 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By alaskan_9974: Not many four engine piston airliners left in flying condition. This may have been one of the last of its types still airworthy. Well you do have a point there. AK always has an eclectic collection of aircraft considering the population. |
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Posted: 4/25/2024 4:13:00 AM EDT
[#43]
RIP
1 engine going bad did not bring that bird down. I reserve comment until an official report is released. Again RIP Pilots and I pray for your families. Alaskan residents that relied on your steadfast service will not forget. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 4/25/2024 4:15:48 AM EDT
[#44]
Fuk
Left turn / left engine/s,. Lord knows what else came unglued at the explosion. If I hear a loud bang:throttles to idle....got nothin. Maybe if they had a flight engineer monitoring ? Glad there was a lasting message. (Sent by right seat?) Very sad. |
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Posted: 4/25/2024 11:08:46 AM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 4/25/2024 11:13:44 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By realwar: His last transmission was "Tell them I love them ma'am, tell them I love them."
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Posted: 4/25/2024 11:45:13 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By K30MuleLAR15: RIP 1 engine going bad did not bring that bird down. I reserve comment until an official report is released. Again RIP Pilots and I pray for your families. Alaskan residents that relied on your steadfast service will not forget. They were good guys. They were heading to my area to deliver fuel. I stopped in one time while they were there and they decided to sump their fuel tanks, and gave it to me so they wouldn’t pollute 
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Posted: 4/26/2024 5:53:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Cascade-Dude]
[#48]
plane had an emergency shortly after take off The plane traveled approximately 10 miles from the Fairbanks airport From news reports. It looks like they had a problem before the crash video begins. |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 10:12:26 AM EDT
[#49]
DC-4 Fairbanks Alaska Crash & eerie similar accidents & incidents
 DC-4 Fairbanks Alaska Crash & eerie similar accidents & incidents.  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/26/2024 10:25:33 AM EDT
[#50]
Can't speak for the control failure portion, but the "engine on fire and fell off the airplane" is not at all unusual.
Who knows if that was an actual design feature, but I've spoken to several pilots to whom it has happened (it happened to a friend of mine while flying freight on a DC-3 in the 90s) and they said it saved the airplane when it happened since the fire didn't continue into the fuel tanks behind the engine nacelle. |
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