Originally Posted By splitbolt:
I don't get it either...

To me, if you have something to say, compose a song. Granted you have some leeway in live performance, but you don't stray from the composition.

Jam bands 'intentionally' stray from the original composition; that's not improvisation...it's musician indulgence

Originally Posted By ramairthree:
You can’t really understand Phish and their popularity rationally.
They have sold like 8.7 million albums and each have a net worth of like 87M dollars.
There are multiple aspects to it.

The people born in the 60s that came of age in the 80s grew up in a culture dominated by late silent gens/early boomers.
And desperately wanted their “own” thing vs continuously having the Beatles and bands popular when they were born constantly rammed down their throats.  And they don’t really like the GD comparisons.  Now they had to start somewhere, and GD, CCR, etc. covers were a part of their start.  

UVM in the 80s/90s was a weird mix of concurrently being a Public Ivy and top ten Playboy party school.  It’s student body had a heavy influx of very affluent WASP and Jewish prep school types that either didn’t quite make the cut for the Ivies, purposefully wanted an outdoorsy cool school location, a place where it was a little easier to coast for a brilliant person than among everyone being brilliant, and in a state littered with multiple progressive little colleges that catered to completing degrees via portfolio, etc. for those that partied too hard, missed too many classes. Etc. and dropped or failed out of UVM.  So they could still finish college and not lose mommy and daddy’s support, lose their pending trust fund, etc.

New England has a subculture of affluent trust fund types don’t carry on the family business, go on to make their own mark, etc.  They get their degree, “work” on their business or foundation which is usually just some hobby or interest write offs, etc.
And pretty much have a nice home, vehicles, life, vacations, etc.  Vermont and its ski areas and outdoor activities are magnets for this type both during college and after.  It is a way of life and freedom and security the vast, vast majority of us will never experience.  

The city and area around UVM and its populace and media etc. Were desperate and longing and so desirous of having its own sound and music scene.  Even painfully more so after the Seattle outbreak.  And pulled out all the stops promoting them.  So, they went from college bar/college gigs, to local gigs, to NE gigs, to national touring in the early 90s.  Pretty much without being heard on the radio, having a record deal, etc.  There was maybe one or two self released albums.  Then a legit record deal recorded locally.  And they adopted web presence etc. very early on.  Then European tours, another album…

They were very dedicated and skilled musicians doing very innovative stuff.  Not really anything I’m interested in but for those dying to be a part of something, and that were interested, it’s a thing.  Keep in mind these are the type of guys that if otherwise oriented would be knocking out their Ph.D.s in astrophysics, engineering solar panels for space probes, or getting  their tier one law degree or MBA after their Ivy League econ degree.  They are not two digit iq “musicians” with mediocre skills who would otherwise be working the counter nightshift at the quickie mart.

There’s basically a handful of strange confluxes that wove into something you can’t really understand, but it be like it do.

Originally Posted By Cossa:
having seen both in concert, the bunch that follows Phish makes the bunch that followed the Dead look downright respectable. music is tolerable. much prefer WSP and GD though.

Originally Posted By delemorte:
Drug's. Lots and lots of drugs

Originally Posted By ramairthree:


Let’s say you like to fish.
In NE you have thick, dark loam where you can turn over a rock, dig one shovel full, get some worms, put one on a hook, and start yanking up brook trout.  People are cool with that.

If that’s too simple for you, maybe you can get into fly fishing and skilled casts and more challenging rivers.  People can understand that.

Phish fishing would be like people sitting around enthralled by four hours spent tying a new fly.  That is a wondrous and amazing fly.  That most people can’t tell from an off the shelf fly and don’t want to sit around for hours watching it get tied.

Originally Posted By Happy_Hour_Hero:


I prefer phish over panic, but agree about the fans. The filthiest people I've ever seen were at phish shows, and a lot of them went out of their way to seem weird.

The typical phish kid is just a homeless street kid/runaway that happened to find a ride to stay on tour half the year instead of living out of a tent in Portland.

Originally Posted By fike:


Is Phish still attracting kids? I figured the median age would be 45-50 these days.

Originally Posted By Windustsearch:
Worse than ska.

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
They are a shitty version the Grateful Dead. Which is a shitty band to begin with.

No one likes the music. They just pretend to so they can pretend to be hippies.

Basically a band for wealthy trust fund kids to pretend to be into and pretend they are poor hippies.

That how they started anyway

Originally Posted By Flysc:


Focused sound? Is that the band or the Sphere?

Originally Posted By ThornBooger:
There was a lottery system for tickets to see Phish at the Sphere, a buddy of mine tried to get some, $1500 per ticket.

Originally Posted By splitbolt:

Lay off the smoke a little, my man.

Originally Posted By fike:


The most important question is “are people still selling veggie burritos at shows”?

(My last show was in ‘98)

Originally Posted By optionstrader:


Pretty much nailed it.  Went to UVM 88-90.  Did I know you?  Phish was GD 2.0.  I knew the guys from parties in Burlington.

Originally Posted By Aspida1776:
Hippies and drugs.

Originally Posted By jos51700:
Fuck I hate Jam Bands.
That's what Primus turned into.

Originally Posted By Superluckycat:
All the Dead Heads needed somewhere to go after Jerry OD'd.  Hence Phish.

Can't stand the Dead but there shows were a hoot just for the freakshow in the parking lot.

Originally Posted By WildBoar:
They are a shitty version the Grateful Dead. Which is a shitty band to begin with.

No one likes the music. They just pretend to so they can pretend to be hippies.

Basically a band for wealthy trust fund kids to pretend to be into and pretend they are poor hippies.

That how they started anyway

Originally Posted By ramairthree:


I was an enlisted infantryman in a Ranger Bn the last half of the 80s.  But I grew up in northern New England  have relatives in northern NE, Quebec, NB, NS, upstate NY, etc.

In that area,
In the 60s, people born when what I call Gen X +/-,
You have this group that are not like earlier boomers or later X-ERs for the most part.  They came to adulthood before most people had computers, cellphones, let alone internet, hell, even most didn’t even have VCRs.

They were born in a decade when only about 1/2 the population had a HS diploma.    And came of age when about 75% did in the 80s.  When only about 10% had a 4 year degree, and came of age of about 20% getting a college degree.

What I refer to as northern NE, -north western Mass, VT, NH, and Maine and while not NE the top half of NY is very similar-
Is a lot of small rural towns and working poor.  

That is the backbone culture for most of it.  It is also various lake, ski, and for Maine coast, and various other cottages, etc. playground for the affluent trust fund types that went to prep schools, prestigious colleges,  and families have summer homes, vacations homes, ski condos, etc. Up there.

The state schools and various little liberal arts colleges and progressive schools get the ones that are not going to be crushing it and becoming family titans.  They are basically getting some more education and lifestyle support on the family dime and ensuring they get their trust fund,  A lot of them end up in the area and live out their LL Bean fantasy while “working”.  Working might mean some nada job so they have medical benefits, or some “business” like their photography hobby, honey from the bees on the old dairy farm they bought and live on with no livestock, or some antiques in the bottom floor of their 1800s three story home, etc.  I’m not saying they are “rich”.
But if you get 120K / year from a trust fund- you can live very comfortably and not have to work.
They don’t just settle in that area, but it attracts a disproportionate amount.
So when super wasp from some bury in Connecticut or Jewish guy from NYC finishes prep school and their trendy degree at UVM or something similar or some little liberal arts school or progressive school-
Instead of the more on track tier one prep school to tier one university to big bucks of their own-
They have had everything paid for, they now have their trust fund, and can settle in those areas and have a very comfortable life with significant leisure time and ability.
They are not all that valid.
Some might get their Ph.D. In fresh water biology or something and have a trendy, conscious career with a lifestyle significantly bolstered by their trust fund.  It’s an odd subculture I didn’t really understand growing up.

So yes, a lot of people like that went to UVM and other schools up there.
But someplace like UVM is also going to have regular locals, poors from the rest of the state, normal in staters, fairly normal out of staters, GI bill guys.

Originally Posted By jos51700:
Fuck I hate Jam Bands.
That's what Primus turned into.

Originally Posted By larkinmusic:
I love the Dead and saw them multiple times.  I tried to like Phish, but just couldn't get into it.  They don't have the songs that the Dead had.   I think what they are missing is Robert Hunter's lyrics.   I'd much rather listen to a song like "Althea" than a song about an opossum that got hit in the road.

Originally Posted By Emoto:

To my ears, Phish has almost none of the above. Their songwriting is lame, lyrics are all nonsense and trivial, and their jams, although filled with energy and technical skill, go absolutely nowhere. I don't like Phish at all.

Originally Posted By bobweaver:
All four members are incredible musicians on their own, and when four incredible musicians play together with decades of musical intimacy it produces a unique sound and experience no one can mimic. They play hundreds of songs that span from blue grass to funk to classical to rock to all points in between and are talented enough to cover anyone else’s music if they so desired. It does take knowing a lot about the band members themselves and having a solid grasp of their songs before one can truly appreciate the music, however it’s obvious to anyone who plays music themselves or studies music that they are indeed incredible musicians. I like Phish because they regularly hit a stride together that takes me out of my element and creates a musical space no other band I’ve ever heard is able to do. Trey is a composer and creates very complicated and unique music and his style on the guitar is unmatched in my opinion. I guess you have to be a bit of a music nerd to really appreciate them.

Yes, there is a drug culture within their fan base, however the majority of the people I see shows with do not do any drugs and some don’t drink. I don’t care for the drug culture or the noodle dancing but it doesn’t hurt my experiences seeing them. Even friends I’ve taken that don’t end up liking their music always say that they put on a kick ass show and that they enjoyed the experience. My personal taste was their ‘95-‘98 tours. Their sound evolves as they use different equipment but those years put out some absolutely beautiful music. If you’re so inclined, check out a few of those YouTube music teacher “listening to Phish for the first time” type videos.

One nerdy aspect I wanted to add. During some of their songs when they go into a long improvised span, if you are a learned musician or intelligent enough musically speaking, you can hear that they are having conversations with one another with their instruments. Sometimes it’s just two of the members at a time and the others are supporting, but there are nuances within the music that sets them apart as truly great.